Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: licensed electricians

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-02-2007, 10:18 AM:

When upgrading or installing equipment, does a licensed electrician need to perform _all_ electrical work, or just addition of new circuits and such? If the former, how does one communicate information about booth wiring (e.g. automation, zippers, anything booth-specific, etc.)? Do you have to sit with him and say "connect this wire here" or can you hand him a manual and say "hook this up" and expect it to be done correctly?

What about speaker wiring? Does this also need to be run and terminated by a licensed electrician? Does speaker wiring always need to be run in conduit? What about 70v systems?

A local theatre owner may be doing some upgrades and obviously wants to make sure that everything is done safely and legally.

Can sound work (solar cell wiring, exciter wiring, etc.) and other low-voltage stuff be done without an electrician?

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 03-02-2007, 11:17 AM:

I guess to some extent what you can do without being a licensed electrician is dictated by local law. New Jersey has an exemption you can apply for to do low-voltage wiring (Telecommunications Wiring Exemption), but the details probably vary from state to state. I prefer to run just about everything in conduit as I find it easier and it adds physical protection and shielding to the cables.

As for giving the electrician instructions, I prefer to provide single-line drawings, which are also good to keep around as documentation.

Most of my experience is in computer rooms and A/V, but I don't imagine most projection booths are a whole lot different.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 03-02-2007, 01:10 PM:

On Long Island, they are "supposed" to do all the work including terminating all the wires. That doesnt make sense though seeing that I would have to stand behind them like you said. Basically I tell them how many of what wires I need run to where I need it and I terminate everything. It works out for both of us. On new installs, all speaker wires are run through conduit. Same thing applies here. They run all the cables and I connect it. When upgrading sound systems, we run jacketed speaker cable either behind the wall fabric or above the ceiling not in conduit. When entering the booth, speaker cables go through conduit.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-02-2007, 02:37 PM:

In Mass. you have to be licensed just to be able to take a crap so when it comes to wiring be careful!! I can bet that there is a mandatory low voltage certification(license)you should have in your state. In theory all of us Techs should be low voltage licensed in the states we work in. Some states are very strict about this and some are not. Don't get caught doing any wiring at all in a state that is very strict. The fines are quite high and cound bankrupt you.

In Wyoming and Idaho you have to be low voltage certified by the state to legally be able to even work on sound systems. In Utah anything pretty much goes since its a right to work state but there is a low voltage certification available. As far as AC wiring goes, I do much of my own just because about 1 out of every 20 electricians you end up with are actually any good and I feel that I do a better job than most. We tend to work under the auspices of the on site Electrical Contractor when doing a new install job. On new installs we work with the electricians who are actually doing the booth wiring when we install the first set of booth equipment... they check us out and generally see that we know what we are doing in regards to hooking in the gear and we certainly don't want to spook them. In reality very few electricians ever deal with installing booth equipment and don't have a clue about it anyway... so they are generally grateful that we are willing to do it.

Mark

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 03-02-2007, 02:58 PM:

The "rules" for electrical installations (and many times approval of equipment that may be installed) falls under the local building codes which can vary greatly from city to city. There is usually a separate section in the code specifically for movie theatres. Also, many times there are unions involved that tell you what you can do and when you can take a shit.

Best to check with your local building department to see what you can and cannot do.

(Don't forget to budget for bribes)

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-02-2007, 03:06 PM:

A good electrician should need minimal instruction to get things hooked up. Our electrician has installed dimmers/etc for us with no problem.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-02-2007, 03:18 PM:

Thanks for all the advice. I'll look into the city's codes, but it sounds like the electrician at least needs to be present to supervise the work. I have no doubt that electricians are perfectly capable of installing stuff like lamps and motors, but I doubt that many have much knowledge of or experience with projection-specific equipment.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-02-2007, 04:18 PM:

When we did our recent digital upgrade it was our normal electrician that did all the terminating of wires from the various circuits (dimmer/projector power/etc). This particular electrician has worked with this building for many years, so he was familiar with the systems. I think what also helped him though is he came in and had a meeting with the installer before anything was taken out. He then knew exactly what he had to do-new service, sub-panels, etc. He was also able to label the wires he was going to have to re-terminate based on what they were currently hooked up too. When it came for the switchover time things went very smoothly.

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 03-02-2007, 09:06 PM:

You might also consider talking to a lawyer.

I've heard of a CLEC somewhere in Massachusetts that apparently had their town's electrical inspector show up, and this CLEC's lawyer explained that, as a LEC, they weren't sure they had to allow the inspector to inspect the building, and asked when the last time was that the electrical inspector had visited the Verizon CO, and apparently at this point the electrical inspector left in disgust without inspecting the building. Someone at the same CLEC has claimed that wiring under 50V does not require any license, although I am not sure whether this is really reliable information.

But phone companies are a special case to some extent: if the city's inspector shuts down a central office over some wiring technicality, that might lead to 911 calls not getting through, which may well be a bigger safety problem.

If you do get an electrician involved in doing extensive low voltage wiring, I suspect you want to pick the electrician carefully, because there are probably some who can do a good job of figuring out how to do low voltage wiring, and others who are better off sticking to the 120V/208V/270V/480V etc that they've done a million times before.

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 03-02-2007, 10:43 PM:

Back in the 70's I sat an exam (known as Cinematograph Operators permit). The exams were run by the State Electricity Commission and It mirrored the exam sat by B class electricians. I have to show that I understood and could carry out all sorts or wiring installations, repairs from cabling a house to rewinding a motor.

However when I received my ticket I was not legally allowed to carryout any of these tasks, it made no sense to me at all.

On the other hand it was also very valuable knowledge as local electricians did not know the first thing about DC motor generators and carbon arcs, in emergency situations when no one was looking we undertook repairs ourselves.

I still felt that if we undertook a B class electrical ticket exam we should have been awarded the ticket at the end.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-03-2007, 02:29 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
I have no doubt that electricians are perfectly capable of installing stuff like lamps and motors, but I doubt that many have much knowledge of or experience with projection-specific equipment.

I only know one electrician that could handle a typical type of drop-and-go theater install and he is my absolute favorite electrician to work with. It shouldn't come as any surprise though that he ONLY does cinema work. [thumbsup]

As far as every other electrician I have worked with, once I need something weird or out of the ordinary, all I will get is blank stares. In those oddball setups, which admittedly I seem to be seeked out for, I have found it best to just have them wire the feeders into the panelboards and connect the basic equipment circuits (console, dimmers, etc). At that point my guys and I do everything else (and usually there are a couple of their circuits we end up having to fix along the way). In the end the job gets done faster, cheaper and right the first time. The various inspectors are always pleased with our work and the fire marshall's inspections specifically has always earned much praise. [Cool]

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 03-03-2007, 08:38 AM:

quote: Joel N. Weber II
I've heard of a CLEC somewhere in Massachusetts that apparently had their town's electrical inspector show up, and this CLEC's lawyer explained that, as a LEC, they weren't sure they had to allow the inspector to inspect the building, and asked when the last time was that the electrical inspector had visited the Verizon CO

Allow me to chime in.

Verizon is the Local Exchange Carrier (LEC) and the CLEC would be using leased space in the Verizon CO.

CO installations must meet Verizon's building installation standards and are usually done by approved contractors. In New England, the old phone company maintained their own installation crews but the work still had to meet all applicable standards. Additionally, all installed equipment must meet NEBS standards. Low voltage wiring (-48vdc) is guaged to the run distance from the nearest supply and must also meet rigorous requirements. A/C power work is done by licensed electricians.

This is probably more than you ever wanted to know about this.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-03-2007, 10:06 AM:

My experience mirrors Brad's. Occasionally the electrician is EXCELLENT. Most of the time he is very bad or not even there at all on installation days. Always, he is happy there is someone to take the responsibility on expensive equipment. Usually he is rushed on other facets of the building wiring.

I don't even think of going out of town without conduit, benders, wire, Liquidtite, etc in case the electrician "can't order" these things or worst of all doesn't show up as expected on installation day. Remember, the job is running behind, but the opening is scheduled; leaving, on one occasion, 5 days to install a 10 plex with digital. (2 men, we made it...barely)

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 03-03-2007, 06:23 PM:

quote: Rick Raskin
Verizon is the Local Exchange Carrier (LEC) and the CLEC would be using leased space in the Verizon CO.

CO installations must meet Verizon's building installation standards and are usually done by approved contractors. In New England, the old phone company maintained their own installation crews but the work still had to meet all applicable standards. Additionally, all installed equipment must meet NEBS standards. Low voltage wiring (-48vdc) is guaged to the run distance from the nearest supply and must also meet rigorous requirements. A/C power work is done by licensed electricians.

Nope, this CLEC (Competitive Local Exchange Carrier) has their own building, and this particular anecdote is not about a Verizon-owned building.

Also, Verizon might more precisely be referred to as an ILEC (Incumbent Local Exchange Carrier); all ILECs and CLECs are LECs.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-04-2007, 03:20 PM:

Like what Phil B. said -- similar here in New York City, the test for Motion Picture Projectionist Licence was under the authority of the Bureau of Gas and Electricity -- the same entity that licensed electricians. The projectionist license included a substantial knowledge of the electrical code and basic electrical theory. The license, at least back when I got mine, allowed the projectionist to do hookups of all projection equipment right up to the breaker boxes. A licensed electrician had to wire mains and breakers and such.

I am sure today's projectionist license has no such electrician equivilance provision. The license has been so watered down and has been removed from the original Gas and Electricity agency and moved to the Department of Consumer Affairs and instead of being a license for safety control, it is now simply a money generating vehicle for the City. Seeing who they give the projectionist licence to today, I certainly wouldn't want any of them touching anything electrical except maybe a breaker ON-Off switch....even that's pretty risky.

When we first put in our original Peerless lamphouses, the college electrician got wind of it he was all in my face and demanded that only he could do the wiring. No problem; have at it, was my attitude. So he wired up the lamphouses and, golly, the arc would just sputter and wouldn't stay lit. Seems the hot-shot licensed electician had wired plus to minus. Once he was gone, I just rewired them and didn't say anything about it....I was a newbee and wasn't going to come off with a wise-ass attitude, although in my mind I could hear Paul's line in HELP!, "You've FAILED, scientist!"

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-05-2007, 08:07 AM:

Same experience as others; one electrican in ten actually knows about low voltage wiring, etc. A friend told me a story awhile ago about an electrican (or someone like him [Wink]

) trying to wire a transformer that didn't have "L1 - L2" in big letters on it. He started just wiring it in every possible combination utill my friend went to help him. Jeez! It's strange how many electricans know nothing about electronics.