Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: NEED HELP : Projectionists 101

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Posted by Brenda Gotty (Member # 4236) on 03-29-2007, 10:09 PM:

I just started as a projectionsist and i'm having a few problem i can big loop,thread,and start the films.ok at my job we have simplexes and kintones projectors. the kin tone have these button located on the machine. mask,dousers,lamp,int.msk. some buttons doesn't have any names on them. my problem comes when the films are on the screen some are too small or too big showing on the wall. i can't fix it.. i work by myself i have to call the managers upstairs too help and they have an attitude. please help.how can i adjust the lens,foucus the picture and bring the picture back to its right formats

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-29-2007, 10:15 PM:

The only help I can offer you is in the form of advice: Change the subject of this thread to something more specific like "Need Help: Film Projection 101". [Smile]

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 03-29-2007, 10:19 PM:

Brenda,
Is the picture spilling out onto the masking?
Is this an issue of the masking not opened or raised?
(Masking is the black area around the screen.)

Posted by Fred Georges (Member # 505) on 03-29-2007, 10:27 PM:

Is this post for real??? [Razz]

Posted by Brenda Gotty (Member # 4236) on 03-29-2007, 10:34 PM:

yes sadly. projection 101..... i need help. i can do anything but i cant foucus the pictures yet, i cant get the film stretch back to its format. if its small on the big screen how to i get it back.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-29-2007, 11:03 PM:

Is this a multiplex theatre? If so, make sure that you're using the correct lenses for the correct auditorium. If the lenses got mixed up, you would probably have issues with the picture not being the correct size for the screen.

(This assumes that you know about the different aspect ratios for 35mm and that each projector needs anywhere from two to five or more different lenses and aperture plates to show all of them properly.)

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 03-29-2007, 11:15 PM:

Are you showing all films with the same lens? Does the projector have a swingover anamorphic lens for Scope?

If Scope films are shown with the flat lens behind the anamorphic, the image will spill over.

If flat films are shown with the Scope backing lens, they will not fill the screen.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-30-2007, 12:45 AM:

Download the projector manuals. Usually in the first dozen pages or so there will be a picture of the machine and arrows pointing to things like "focus knob" and such that you will want to know about.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-30-2007, 02:59 AM:

From what I understand this is what happens:

You have are using 1 lens that for Scope and Flat films. When a scope film comes you simply swing an anamorphic in front of the lens and walla, picture is perfet. When it is not scope you swing the anamorphic away and you have a small image which is what should happen. Probably you have a second lens somewhere which is for that house. The first thing you might want to try is put a white carboard in front of the projection port and try to focus the picture on the carboard to check whether your lens is ok. If you can focus ok (to focus there is an adjustment either in front of the lens holder or underneath [a knob] and you simply turn it clockwise or counterclockwise) then check if you can focus on the screen. If your theaters are single lens holders, you might have mixed the lenses from one theater to the other. To help you realise the correct placement of the lenses, the "flat" area should be on the film side wile the "oval" area should be on the screen side.

Now flat films, when you look the cells you should see the images of the people like they should be. Scope films, you see them 'stretched' a bit. From this you can choose which is the proper lens to use.

Demetris

Posted by Jake Lafree (Member # 3656) on 03-30-2007, 03:17 AM:

Yes, make sure the active lens matches the movie (i.e. Flat lens for flat movie). Also, make sure the aperture plate is set to the correct setting for the print. On our projectors, the aperture plate is out for flat prints, and in for scope prints. If it is not set 100% accurately (i.e. not in or out all the way) then the picture will not display properly on the screen.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 03-30-2007, 03:32 AM:

Hey Brenda

The correct image on the screen is a pretty basic requirement of knowledge as a projectionist. If the guys downstairs give you attitude then give it right back and say you haven't been taught how to do it.

Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 03-30-2007, 05:32 AM:

If you don't know the basics then the managers need to train or re-train you. You have to ignore their attitude problem.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 03-30-2007, 06:09 AM:

quote: Brenda Gotty
i work by myself i have to call the managers upstairs too help and they have an attitude. please help.how can i adjust the lens,foucus the picture and bring the picture back to its right formats

These are pretty basic things. If they're not concerned about it, I wouldn't be, either. How long have you been a projectionist?

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 03-30-2007, 09:17 AM:

It sounds like this poor lady got no training whatsoever. [Frown]

If Tennessee were still in my sales territory, I would stop by and help her.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-30-2007, 10:07 AM:

Brenda, if this is a real post -- and it certainly can be given how exhibitors run theatres now-a-days, you need to tell SOMEONE, preferably your supervisor or manager that you simply do not have the knowledge to run the projection booth. You can't fake this. Someone who has worked that booth with some modicum of competence needs to show you things that we can't possibly know because they are unique to that booth, like the masking control switches (which sounds like this could be one of the issues) lighting controls, etc. No one should be thrown into a booth without the operator before him/her running through the booth controls.

Is there anyone besides you who runs this booth and runs it without showing the movie on the theatre walls? If so, find this person and get a quick tour of the ins and outs. Certain quirks of a booth operation could baffle even the most competent projectionist -- the booth lights needing to be turned on by a panel in the manager's office, for example -- actually happend to me; the aperture plates being kept in a draw hidden below the rewind table, etc. Sometimes a simple word from someone who has worked the booth can save you hours of searching and hair-pulling.

That being said, the FT guys, as you can see have already tried to unravel the possibilities for you. But there is more information that we need to know.

1) is the theatre set up so that when the different types of movies are shown, usually referred to as Scope and flat., the Scope image is a much wider than it is high, while the Flat image is the same height as the Scope, only not as wide? OR -- is it set up so that no matter what type of picture is being shown, Scope or Flat, both are the same width, but one shrinks from top to bottom so that it is the same width as the other, but not as tall.

2) is it clear that there are only two sets of lenses -- Scope and Flat? Usually you can tell which is which -- the Scope is usually larger and if you can look into the lens, nothing looks round, it looks oval and curved; the Flat lens everything looks normal -- not oval or distorted. If your theatre runs other than first run, there may be additional lenses that will have to be investigated.

3) do you find aperture plates in the booth as well? These are metal plates about 2 inches by 1 inch with a handle on one end and either a squarish hole in the metal or a rectangular hole about the same size as a film frame. How many of these do you find near the projector? Do you find only two -- one in which the hole is an obvious rectangular shape and the other has a hole that is square shaped. You should likely find markings on either punched somewhere in the metal near the handle or even hand written on the handle itself that would say 2.35 or 2.39 (that would be for the Scope features) and the other would have 1.85 or some other number. Making things more complicated, they may both have the same number, something like 2.1 but the holes will still be shaped differently. If you can find these plates, we need to know what is marked on them and better, what they look like. Do you have any kind of digital camera that you could take pictures of this and other items in the booth that the FTers here could ask to see? -- that would be of great help. If there are only two plates and two lenses, then it will be a piece of cake to determine which goes with what lens and how to set the mask to match which format is being projected.

Which leads me to as an obvious question, but from what you say, we need to ignore what may be obvious here and ask everything. When you change lenses, are you also changing aperture plates -- the metal things with the little handles (for the Simplex). The plates are essential to stopping parts of the image from being projected taller or sometimes wider than the screen. If you do not put in any plate at all, the image will, as you describe, be all over the walls. The aperture plate prevents this.

Tell us more. We might even be able to get it right from this end, but it certainly would be easier if you found someone who worked the booth (and isn't a jerk with an attitude) to show you where the aperture plates are, what lenses to use and how to change the masks. You probably should also know what all the switches do. The unmarked ones may very well be controlling something that was customized for that booth but were never etched or marked. And damn them for throwing you into the booth without so much as a cursory run thru on it's operation.

And just a word of wisdom -- remember this whenever you get "attitude" from someone -- people with attitudes usually have those attitudes because they are insecure and don't actually have an answer to what you are asking in the first place -- attitude is an insecure jerk's cover for lack of knowledge.

Best of luck Brenda -- not to despair....you got the film threaded correctly and the picture focused and I assume you've got sound going....that's a good start. [thumbsup]

We'll continue to help where we can, but if you can take pictures, that would go a long way to letting us help you. Especially pictures of what the picture looks like in the auditorium on the walls and such would be very helpful.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 03-31-2007, 10:47 AM:

Just the fact that Brenda posted for help in this specific forum, shows a very keen interest to what she is supposed to be doing. If only ALL projectionists had the passion and lust for knowledge and help, perhaps we wouldn't have this forum .

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-31-2007, 03:12 PM:

Well, I won't sugarcoat it...

Brenda shouldn't be handling film or film equipment if she doesn't really know what she's doing and isn't being trained.

If you're passionate about film handling, get yourself some good training. Self-training is like the blind leading the blind.

Good intentions are fine, but the road to hell is paved with 'em.

A lot of people worked on that movie. It cost a lot to make. The producers/distributors need their movies presented in their best possible light. Furthermore, your customers are paying for a professional show.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-01-2007, 08:11 AM:

Yah, well, let's not sugarcoat the distributor/film-maker's role in this either. Ever see a Master Contract -- pages and pages of requirements, mostly all geared to how the distributor insures that it gets its percentage of the ticket sales and how the exhibitor has to pay up. There is not even the smallest paragraph demanding that a competent projectionist handle that costly print. They could easily make this a contractual requirement. They seem to KNOW there are grindhouses out there ready to mangle their prints, but they happily allow their pictures that, as you said, cost lots of money and represent the work of a lots of artists, to play in these crapholes, even at first run, simultaniouly screwing the filmmakers and the public. So you wind up with a situation where Warner Brothers spends $20,000 to strike a new 70mm print of 2001: A SPACE ODYESSY, only to let it play in a theatre where during the week there is only a high school drop-out sitting OUTSIDE the booth while a misthreaded print is hammered thru the projector and where that same print that only played for two weeks already had big emulsion gashes all over it, not to mention enough dirt to fill a landfill.

Sure that's the fault of the theatre trying to maximize profit, but it is also the fault of the distributor who can, but doesn't demand more from the theatre in the way of technical film handling expertise. Has any studio actually billed all these theatres that damaged prints as we have documented in the Outing thread? If they did, exhibitors would be a lot more careful about who they put in the booth. In the end it's the distributor who can make it economically imperative that the exhibitor run his booth in a competent manner. And of course, if a theatre knew they could be denied first run product if their theatre doesn't meet certain minimum requirements, it would quickly put a end to this kind of nonsense of throwing some untrained newbie in a booth cold.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 04-01-2007, 07:40 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
Yah

Frank, this is the trademarked term of Jack Ondracek. You must write Yah™ whenever you use it.

[Razz]

Posted by Dennis Udovich (Member # 1066) on 04-04-2007, 12:14 AM:

Is this an APRIL FOOL'S joke? Sorry to say Brenda has no clue of what's going on! Can't spell or make a complete statement, doesn't know terminology of the business, doesn't have a clue, but knew enough to come to Film Tech? ... I doubt it. [Confused]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-04-2007, 12:24 AM:

quote: Tim Reed
Frank, this is the trademarked term of Jack Ondracek. You must write Yah™ whenever you use it.

Yah™, I agree.

I've been looking for something to differentiate myself from Redifer, and Yah™, this is it.

Make sure I get full credit, dammit!

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 04-04-2007, 02:46 AM:

quote: Dennis Udovich
Sorry to say Brenda has no clue of what's going on! Can't spell or make a complete statement, doesn't know terminology of the business, doesn't have a clue, but knew enough to come to Film Tech?

Why single out Brenda? Your description describes an alarming percentage of the people who post here. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-04-2007, 11:58 AM:

Yah™....you got that right, Jack!

(Yah is a Registered Trademark of Jack Ondracek. All rights reserved.)

But Yah!© to you too, Tim.

(Yah! with the explanation symbol, it's compilation and arrangement, Copyright 1972, Frank Angel. All rights reserved.)

On to the lawsuits.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 04-04-2007, 12:23 PM:

Can someone put up an email address here for Training in the geographical area this good lady comes from?

Is there anyone who could provide an on-site training service?

Then she, or more appropriately her management, could contact that person or persons and take things from there.

It's appalling she has not been trained and is not being professionally supported.

(I'm taking the post at face value).

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 04-04-2007, 01:10 PM:

quote: Manny Knowles
Well, I won't sugarcoat it...

Brenda shouldn't be handling film or film equipment if she doesn't really know what she's doing and isn't being trained.

If you're passionate about film handling, get yourself some good training. Self-training is like the blind leading the blind.

Good intentions are fine, but the road to hell is paved with 'em.

A lot of people worked on that movie. It cost a lot to make. The producers/distributors need their movies presented in their best possible light. Furthermore, your customers are paying for a professional show.

This is not her fault. This responsibility falls to the theater management to train her which they obviously have not done. If she needs the job and wants to learn projection she cannot help how much training she gets. Her post on Film-Tech shows that she is interested in learning. I doubt most people would even care.

I got very little training when I started in the booth and most of what I know now I learned the hard way with nobody showing me. Since there are no schools or places of eduction to get training in this field, sometimes you have to do what you can.

I am sure this must be frustrating to you as a tech since you are the one that has to fix what uneducated people break, but again this responsibility falls to the theater chain and ultimately the management. Lack of training by management is film done wrong. [thumbsdown]

Unfortunately this is a fact of life in today's society. Nobody cares about presentation or the customer. Has anyone else noticed that customer service anywhere you go has gone in the [bs]

er? Try to call your cable company and tell them you don't like their service. Once you get through the 8 menus and are on hold for 15-20 minutes, they will tell you to go pound salt. I know, I have tried. It seems that good customer service has now become the exception to the rule.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-04-2007, 02:28 PM:

Those of us who have been around 30+ years note that no one talks about "more light" "sharper picture" Steadier image" anymore.

Control has moved over to the bean counters.......most of whom are also not very good at "making more beans!"

That is the joy of Film-tech. At least we are with kindred spirits! Louis

Posted by Joshua Waaland (Member # 287) on 04-04-2007, 02:43 PM:

quote:
Control has moved over to the bean counters.......most of whom are also not very good at "making more beans!"

I go through the same thing in the welding business. We lose a lot of sales to our competitions lower quality/priced equipment. The bean counters don't care about quality, just price. Nevermind the fact that it probably won't last half as long as ours will. [Roll Eyes]

[ 04-04-2007, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Joshua Waaland ]