Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Converting Christie with flat gate to curved!

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Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-16-2007, 05:52 PM:

I have an early Christie with flat gate. This model is pre Ultramittent.
Talking with a Christie tech ( another topic ) from Christie Canada he said he never heard of a flat gate and said it was uncommon and must have been custom ordered. I asked if they had a curved gate, direct bolt on and he said yes so I ordered this from EE in buffalo NY. It arrived today.
While it looks like it will indeed bolt right on and looks like it would work there is only one problem, the upper constant speed sproket assembly is in the way and appears closer to the gate then the new models. It looks like if I could mill part of the front corner of the mount of th gate this would work.
Looking for some in site. The tech was made well aware I had a very early model.
Anyone done anything like this. Id really like to make this work if possible but I know if I attempt to modify the gate in any way it becomes mine perminently.

Thanks!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-16-2007, 06:29 PM:

Pre Ultramittent? Really? It has a Century intermittent in it? (that is what they used before getting their own. At least Christie ran the oil tube to the top of the projector and put the cap on the outside.

The straight gate Christie was not a special order item...that is how it was born...it was the "First projector designed by a computer." or some such BS they were promoting.

It seems that ALL projector manufacturers MUST start out with straight gates...even those that came out after the invention of the curved gate. And guess what...they all eventually get to the curved gate as a "Eureka!"...if we use a curved gate, the picture will be steaider and an hold focus better. I want to say it took Christie until about 1986 before they adopted it as the norm.

It took Cinemeccanica much longer to allow the V-5 to have a curved gate though they had them on earlier machines like the Vic 8. Again...Eureka!...a steadier picture.

If you go to the manuals section and download the "P-35" manual...you will see your projector and gate though it will have the ultramittent in it as well as the larger Bodine motor (early P-35s had a small motor that was known to fail a bit...as was the larger 1/10HP motor sans start/run capacitors.

If you download the P-35C (guess where the "C" came from) you will see what you are trying to turn your projector in to.

When I was at K-B Theatres, we were an early adopter of the P-35 and regretted it ever sense. I think we have serial numbers 3-7 on the first batch.

When the P-35C came out we were offered one as a Beta test to try and improve the miserable picture steadiness (which varied based on the light run into the P-35...smaller lamps did better than larger ones).

The P-35C did improve things for picture steadiness but they also came with white neoprene belts with steel cords...which were supposed to improve life...net result...they lasted half as long as the cords burst through the belting and cut the thing up. It turns out the cords don't like to be bent back AND forth. Also, the P-35C retained the Ultramittent and the miserable shutter gear box (with either red or green paint on the shaft to denote it was the new design or the new-new design). Between the belts, the shutter boxes and the intermittents...the service on these were significantly higher and more expensive than the Simplexes used thoughout the rest of the chain.

Anyway...when they sent us the P-35...I remember them saying you could not just swap the gate, you had to change out the main septum too and move everything over so they just sent the whole projector. I remember being quite impressed that we swapped the whole projector head, moved the turret over with the lenses still in place and NOTHING had to be realigned...everything it the screen right on the money and I want to say focus was also still right. That was an impressive feat of machining and pinning to accomplish that much accuracy.

If you look at your current machine...you will see that the area around the gate/trap is milled down for the straight gate assembly. If you were to see a P-35C, you will see that it is milled down for that assembly (in addition to some slight sprocket location change as well as a new way to tension the motor belt without having the teeth hit.

So if you just force the curved gate assembly in...it will not sit flat unless you mill the septum plate for a uniform surface where the gate/trap contact. Then there is the other parts that need to move. Good luck.

I think your machine will need to remain a straight gate but if you succeed, congratulations...share what you did with the rest of us.

Steve

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-16-2007, 06:36 PM:

Heard that AMC was the one circuit that got Christie on the map with their recommendations on a certain kind of projector...maybe someone can fill this story into play...

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-16-2007, 07:18 PM:

Well milling the corner of the gate is not an option as you can see but moving the Sprocket assembly is.
The gate does in deed line up quit nicely. The sprocket assembly is mounted to a flat plate held on with 4 screws and removes quit easily. A new hole and I would be up and running. I do not know if the work is worth the end results. It is a sweat gate with duel aperture plates.
Heres a quick pic with the sprocket assembly removed and the gate resting in place. You can see the hole with the sprocket removed reviles in its stock position it is far to close.

Steve lots of good information in your post, thank you. Someone told me I have a simplex intermitent but I will find out.
After reading your post I do not think I want to tackle this. If I had a nice work bench with the proper tools I think it would be a fun project but I am not set up for this and would have to get other people involved. Thanks for the input.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-16-2007, 07:59 PM:

Steve's right on except I was told that they used an E7 or Super intermittent. Sorry to say, I sold a lot of these before it became obvious that the quality was not ever going to be good. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-16-2007, 08:02 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
it was the "First projector designed by a computer.

Dong! not so... the Ballantune was the first computer designed projector... It must not have been much of a computer though.

That Christie tech sure doesn't know hiz Christies! There is but one guy at Christie that knows them well. The flat gate Christies were all built for AMC and a few others that ordered them at the time. Not good quality Louis??? We have one customer that has an original flat gate Christie running since it was brand new... IT HAS NEVER BEEN OPENED OR TOUCHED! I think this machine sets the definition for "Maintainaince Free" and it even has an Ultramittent... not a Simplex movememnt. Lets see a Simplex or Century pull this stunt! As it's only serial number #32 believe it or not... it still puts out pretty good images but when it goes its really going to go... like into the nearest trash can.

As for your curved trap assy., it cannot... I repeat cannot... be installed on your model Christie. The entire center frame has to be changed to accomnodate the shift of many of the components mounted to it. Also, none of the flat gate or trap components are available new any longer.

I was told by Christie about a year ago that 4 early P35 machines that a customer was still running and that had the goofy reversing gear could not be converted over to the new belt path minus the reversing gear. I told them they are wrong and set about doing it to all 4 of them. The results are below and the machines are still running along very smoothly all 4 on their original Ultramittents.

The before mechanism... Pulley's were shot and grinding up the belts in less than a year. Many of the older style pulleys and asssemblies are not available any more... so they had to either be junked or converted. They did not have the shutter gear box, this being the first model with the belt drive shutter.

The after mechanism... These now also sport the single blade double speed shutter. Parts cost was about 750.00 per machine, this is alot less than $7,000 for each new projectors. I did the first one in the shop and made placement jigs and did the other three in the field in less than 12 hours. Even the new motor mounts and mount placement are different than the originals! This allows for even belt tension while framing the movement fully up or down. I also drained and re-filled the ultramittents with fresh LaVezzi oil during the overhauls. These machines had just over 10 years on them when they were converted. They will now run till film's end.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-16-2007, 08:27 PM:

Mark

That second pic shows what I have. For my use it runs fine but you have me scared parts are scarce. I am finding out you are further ahead buying something newer or something with parts still avail first time around.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-16-2007, 10:56 PM:

(oughta see the belt arrangement for the old Christie 35 flat trap, single lens version: just getting that Ultramittent gear and the belt driven drive gear to be in tune is something else. Granted, using the piece of paper to get the gear slop just right works wonders, but to get things in square.....when you do an Ultramittent assembly replaced..)

Oh, how it is fun lacing up the belts in the back of a P35 when the motor doesn't swing out ....

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-17-2007, 08:01 AM:

Alan,

Actually yours is still very different since you have the shutter gearbox and your upper sprocket is in a completely different location. These machines had curved traps from day 1. You can still get gearbox's although they are pretty damed expensive... around $500.00. But some of the timming pulleys in yours are also obsolete as they were in the machines that I converted.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-17-2007, 08:37 AM:

I'll concede that the intermittent was probably a Super and not the Century...especially now that I look at it...I'd very surprised if it was an E7 though.

As to the first computer design...Christie didn't advertise it like it was designed on a computer...but that it was somehow designed by a computer (not a person). We used to joke that it had to be the first thinking computer because it would constantly look at what it had done then proclaim "that doesn't work" and redesign it again, and again, and again.

The Ballantyne may have been designed on a computer (odd since its original manual was drawn by a child in a more comic book fashion) but it was an attempt to copy the Philips/Kinoton FP20...which Ballantyne was the importer, in the early days.

As to the straight gate P-35s...while AMC may have indeed influenced their production...they were not made "for" AMC...that was Christie's projector offering in the early 1980s, period...anyone ordering them got them. The local Standard Theatre Supply guy, Norman Bonaparte really pushed the heck out of them and that is how K-B and Circle theatres in the DC-Metro area got them. STS didn't supply AMC...National Cinema Supply had the AMC account.

I believe every single one of them have been retired by now and most didn't make it to their 10th birthday.

As to Simplexs going as long as a P35...oh there are many an XL head that have had nothing more than oil changes and have been going far longer than even Mark's P-35.

Don't even get me started on the number of motors, reversing gears, shutter gear boxes and Ultramittents I've changed out over the years I've had to deal with this projector. It was by far the most expensive machine to maintain of any I've had to deal with.

Have they improved it? Yes constantly...but it had a LONG LONG way to go. And it isn't a simple matter of upgrading an existing projector...there are just so many things one may do to an older machine. Oddly enough, I don't think of a projector made in 1985 (I think that was the last year for the straight P-35) as that old...yet wearing parts are now obsolete on it.

Probably the niftiest item Christie had for the machine was their single lens holder...very precise focusing can be had with it and very positive lens registration. Christie continues to have the best machining of the bunch.

Steve

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 04-17-2007, 09:42 AM:

I was once told that the original Christies were designed and built by Andy Marglin of Kelmar and that they used Super intermittents.
Bob

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-17-2007, 10:37 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Oddly enough, I don't think of a projector made in 1985 (I think that was the last year for the straight P-35) as that old...yet wearing parts are now obsolete on it.

Christie is as famous for their projector upgrades as is Strong for all their versions of the X-L gate and trap... very few of which actually work well. The version of the gate with its split in the middle pressure pads has got to be the very worst of the bunch, parts are non-existant and no one at Strong knows anything about it(supposedly). Lets talk automation... Strong blew it big time here too until they got in bed with EPRAD. Strong also went through way too many versions of a two lens turrett and the present one is adaquate but still not 100%. I would call it a tie between Strong and Christie on the number of goof ups and mods over the same number of years... Indeed Strong may hold the actual record there but I'll call it even.

quote: Steve Guttag
As to Simplexs going as long as a P35...oh there are many an XL head that have had nothing more than oil changes and have been going far longer than even Mark's P-35.

I agree but in all fairness this Christie has not had its oil changed in its lifetime. Try that with an X-L and it might run a couple of years... the oil would have all leaked out by then. For some reason or other the casing of the Ultramittents just don't leak at all... seals aside. Its cast iron but must be really fine grained cast iron or treated somehow. BTW: It is possible and very easy to change out the oil in an Ultramittent. I generally reccomend it and do it for my customers every three years. This may have contributed to many of the Ultramittents out there going on 11 years of continous use. This also says alot for the use of LaVezzi oil.

Bob is correct... the first ones were built by Andy, they also made the turrett. The amazing thing is that Christie has held machining to unbelievably tight tolerances over the years...never deviating from this at all. They make other manufacturers in this industry look sick by comparison. The only other one that could give any real competition in this department is Kinoton.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-17-2007, 04:58 PM:

Actually the pro 35 is more of a DP75 copy than a fp20 copy

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-17-2007, 05:31 PM:

There's a flat gate, single lens Christie still in operation with a SH-10 console behind it here in my area. I think the serial No. is in the 300's or something...I'll have to check when I visit this small theatre next time.

Only thing I've done to it was replace the bowtie shutter drive assembly, and an Ultramittent replacement...outside of the usual belt replacements..

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The version of the gate with its split in the middle pressure pads has got to be the very worst of the bunch

...Mark, is that the studio gate version?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-17-2007, 10:40 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
Actually the pro 35 is more of a DP75 copy than a fp20 copy

Actually you'd be surprised to find out that Strong has discontinued many of the parts for Pro?-35's... including many of the gate and trap and lens mount castings and components... Personally, I've spent the last 27 years trying to figure out where the Pro part is in the Pro?-35.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
...Mark, is that the studio gate version?

No, Its the split/overlapping gate... I think they were originally made for Cineplex but not 100% sure. They seem to be in many Cinepklex sites that had straight gates and I've never seen em anywhere else.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-18-2007, 01:40 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Personally, I've spent the last 27 years trying to figure out where the Pro part is in the Pro?-35.

(just custom made 'Boat Anchors'....)

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 04-18-2007, 01:57 AM:

Watch out for the Christie curved gate!!! It has two screws that hold it on, with no proper locking hardware (lockwashers). Rather Christie opted to use Locktight as its "locking hardware", and this does not work too well.

Anyhow, I have seen a few Christies where the tapped holes were sloppy and the screws would easily back-out after one show!! Result can be a destroyed print right down the middle of the frame!!

K

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-18-2007, 10:00 AM:

While not a stellar machine the pro35 is very durable (if treated with respect) and we still many of them in daily use

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-18-2007, 11:37 AM:

Yea, they're well made except for the coupler and cheesy motor drive. Have fun getting parts! LaVezzi now sells many oarts for the Ballantyne, their pricing is also much better.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-19-2007, 04:31 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
No, Its the split/overlapping gate...

Is this what you're talking about here with this Simplex gate sample?

thx - Monte

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-19-2007, 08:41 AM:

There have been a lot of pro 35s on ebay. Theres one up there now. For some reason the film compartment, gears , trap and lens holder were always rusty or corroded looking. Every one of them. Must be the metal they use.

I remember reading in an older thread a little Film Guard sprayed on the belts on the Christie will help prevent them from shredding and help them to last longer. I did this but noticed the belts sucked up the FG after one run and are dry again. Is this normal or should there be enough FG on them to notice a wet film at all times?

THanks!

[ 04-19-2007, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Alan Gouger ]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-19-2007, 10:30 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Is this what you're talking about here with this Simplex gate sample?

Close but not exactly... The one I had in mind has slightly offset and overlapping rails at the center. Both are bastard designs though.... Who on earth would be ordering straight gate machines for theaters running with large lamps today anyway???

quote: Will Kutler
Watch out for the Christie curved gate!!! It has two screws that hold it on, with no proper locking hardware (lockwashers). Rather Christie opted to use Locktight as its "locking hardware", and this does not work too well.

Donno, I have machines that have been in for over 15 years probably longer and no loose or stripped screws or hint of such. Anyone that can strip alumnium plate thats at least 1/2" thick doesn't know what they are doing and doesn't belong in a booth... Its certainly easy enough to fix with a threadsert.

Alan,
I've tried F-G on Christie belts wth touch and go sucess... Christie also makes a belt dressing specifically for this purpose that works about as well as F-G. The main reason your belts are shredding is because the pulleys are worn out. When the pulleys wear so do the belts... much faster than normal. It also makes a mess in the projector! A few year ago I overhauled 6 Christies that had been in service for about 8 years and some of whose pulleys were worn pretty badly, the insides were a mess. The theater was going through a set of belts in about 6 to 8 months. The new at that time pulleys came hard coated. Not only does this prevent them from wearing out as quickly but they are running on the same belts that I installed during the overhaul and the belt side has stayed very clean. Christie has just introduced a new belt kit for the P-35GP that utilizes all round tooth pulleys and belts(do a search here and you'll notice that I suggested this on F-T about 5 or 6 years ago!). Some of the pulleys are precision molded wih a metal insert for the hub. The kit is going to be very inexpensive and it will also solve the flutter problem that has always existed on that version of the machine. The round tooth belts have had a life span in the Cine X-35's we've installed of over three years(the oldest install).

The Christie is an excellent projector but if you want one you can keep maintained then you'll need to look for a P-35GP.
Mark

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-19-2007, 10:42 AM:

Mark my belts are not shredding, yet at least [Smile]

but I am doing this as a preventative thing in hopes the belts will last longer.
My projector is really in quit good shape with no trouble so far
but I wish I had consulted with you guys before buying this machine. I would have held out for a newer model. I do like the projector. What would one expect to pay for a newer model on the used market?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-20-2007, 02:59 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Who on earth would be ordering straight gate machines for theaters running with large lamps today anyway???

Hmmmm..some of those big box cinemas down in your locale are using 3k's shooting through flat-trap PR-1050's...and one is a three-rail studio gate version.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The Christie is an excellent projector

..course, with the belt system these machines uses, one must also take note that toothed belts are not to be used fanbelt tight, but the usage of the quarter-inch deviation before the pulleys begin to roll with the belt in question.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-20-2007, 08:04 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Hmmmm..some of those big box cinemas down in your locale are using 3k's shooting through flat-trap PR-1050's...and one is a three-rail studio gate version.

We actually had one shooting a 7K on a flat gate.... go figure!

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 04-21-2007, 01:25 AM:

While we're on the subject of Christie's, I have been looking for a part# for the lens adjustment allen screws for the dual lens turret. There are 2 screws one on the left and one on the right of a stationary post. The right screw has a spring loaded pin in the core. Our turrets have a metal casting and not the plastic. They are circa 1988 P35C's. I will post pics ASAP.

[ 04-23-2007, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Jeremy Weigel ]

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 04-23-2007, 10:11 PM:

Here are the pics:

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-23-2007, 10:44 PM:

I'm not sure that Christie will still supply parts for that turrett or not. Would have to check with them. Did you loose the screws or are the tips just worn out?

Mark

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 04-24-2007, 12:05 AM:

I have a 2 or 3 that have the spring loaded pin screw stripped out so I have to use a pair of needle nose to turn them, which is a pain in the arse and of course this has completely damaged the threads.

By the way Mark, do you happed to know if Christie still makes the outer idler pulley that has the slightly offset flanges (the outer flange is slightly thicker). I spoke with someone at Christie a few months back and they said it was now an obsolete part.? I checked with LaVizzi to see if they made an after-market version, but no go.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-24-2007, 01:10 AM:

(side topic - I do believe that those lateral guide pinch rollers on that SONY reader are spread WAY too far apart. Isn't there red marks to where the lateral guide rollers are to match up with on the casing for proper load procedures?)

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 04-24-2007, 02:14 AM:

Hey Monte,

The index marks are lined up though it is hard to see in the pic posted since I had to reduce the picture size. You might also be thinking they ride as close as the Dolby penthouse cinch rollers. [Wink]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-24-2007, 03:29 AM:

(Okey, can understand that now..but it seems that they were supposed to be closer, but it's been quite the while since I played with SDDS units and have forgotten much about them..sorry on that...)

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 04-24-2007, 03:55 AM:

Quite understandable. I think I 'm still one of the few that still use the DFP-2000's (3 units). I've had one in service since 1994 and only had to change the LED's about 3 years ago. The other 2 I picked up off of eBay about 3-4 years ago (replaced the LED's on those aswell). It was right after that I started hearing rumors that Sony was pulling out the cinema digital sound arena and try as I might, I couldn't get anyone at Sony to confirm it. Then they finally ponied up and put out a press release, what about 2 years ago now. [Mad]

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 04-24-2007, 04:57 PM:

Just got off the phone with Jim Graten at Christie and thankfully they still supply the adjustment screws that I need. If anyone else out there still has this turret the part# for the spring loaded screw is: 598931-351 Desc: Plunger-spring lens barrel assembly. The other screw is normal set screw that be picked up at any decent hardware store like Ace or True Value.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-24-2007, 08:14 PM:

Jim's a great guy for Christie - they know how to take care of their customers ... I've had business and helpdesk with Jim before in the past..

(Dang, I sure miss playing with Christie equipment now that I have to deal with Strong stuff....but I keep them going...)

[ 04-25-2007, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]