Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Century MSC or Simplex Apogee what's the better pick?

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Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-07-2007, 12:31 PM:

I have the opportunity in about six months to get to select a new projector. I was told we have to buy from one of the venders on our list for reasons I do not know. However I have been quoted from two places the price on a new Simplex Apogee and the Century MSC projector with lens turret. I was also quoted a price on a refurbished XL and a Refurbished older Century. Out of all of these listed which would any of you pick and why?

I have read some of the comments on the apogee and got the idea to stay away. However I have not seen a post on the Century MSC (newest model).

Thank you

Mike Moore

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 05-07-2007, 12:39 PM:

Nothing beats a restored Simplex XL...

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-07-2007, 01:01 PM:

I would go for the used X-L (with SH-1000 or 5-star) or used Century C or SA/MSA (with R-3 or MR-3, as appropriate).

Since your venue (apparently) only runs film occasionally (based on your comments in another thread), funds are probably limited and you are probably dependent upon several part-time operators. Since you won't be putting as much mileage on the meachines as a full-time cinema, rebuilt equipment will save money and should last for many years; also, your operators are probably already familiar with Century and Simplex equipment (vs. something more exotic). Be sure to budget for spare parts and periodic maintenance.

I haven't seen the Apogee, but I have a difficult time believing that it is so much better than rebuilt older equipment to be worth the price premium of buying new and the possible training issues associated with something nonstandard.

If you must buy new, consider the Kinoton PK-60D. It should be price-competitive with the Simplex and Century machines.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-07-2007, 01:21 PM:

To be honest don't buy anything new!! Get a rebuilt Century from someone like Louis. You will never have trouble getting parts for them. Way too many problems with Apogee. I'm not a big fan of older X-L's either... leaky pieces of crap... VERY porus castings of VERY poor quality and too many die cast parts that eventually stretch out of shape... like the lens mount, lens bushings and the weak lower bearing retainer on the vert. shaft assy. that can crack all too easy... the bushings on the sprocket shafts that plug up with crap over the years... I could go on and on. They are good running machines but no near opponent for a well running Super with Posi-Trol Sprockets installed.

From the latest pricing I've seen Kinoton is no longer very price competetive. If you go Kinoton be sure to buy alot of extra plastic parts to have around, but they are the best on-screen machines, stay away from the electronic version... The ones around this area are way too film fussy.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-07-2007, 01:37 PM:

....P35GPS from Christie...good machines as well...esp since they've modified the drive train and misc. hardware inside...

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 05-07-2007, 04:12 PM:

Since you're a performing arts center you might want to consider changeover operation rather than a platter for these reasons:
1- If you're only showing a film once it's silly to spend time making up and tearing down a print.
2- Many archives refuse to loan films for platter operation.
Bob

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-07-2007, 04:51 PM:

If it refurbished I would recomend FP20 machines one cannot beat them for a good image
otherwise Victoria 5

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-07-2007, 05:45 PM:

We have two projectors however projector 2 was taken out of service to feed projector 1 when we were showing films longer then a week. I for one did changeovers for a while but we showed bowling for columbine for 4 weeks strait 3 days a week I start using the platter.

I am the only projectionist who knows how to do reel to reel in our booth, not that it's hard or anything like that but the other two guys are scared to do it.

In the future I want to get back to two projector work.

By the way the current committee who picks the film refuses to pick films that are not older then 1 year. They also refuse to pick historic, archival prints, they want to wacky foreign films that are in strange formats, like the film says international flat, and it is much smaller on the screen. Stuff like that drives me nuts.

For now we will only have the budget for one new projector.

However for the future I'm not always going to be here at the theater and the Board of Directors really wants the whole thing to be turn key for students from the two local colleges to start learning in. So I'm thinking of that for the future as well.

Mike

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-07-2007, 05:58 PM:

Naturally, I'm a Kinoton proponent. Pricing has been tough since there is a 35% Euro to Dollar conversion...in a market where profits are not allowed to be anywhere near that! So yes, they will be pricey as compared to domestic models. They are, never the less, the best machines out there...steadiest pictures and best sound reproducers (current versions...I'm no fan of the older sound head modules...way too small an impedance drum and can get very fluttery very easily...they fixed that on current units).

Simplex and Century speak for themselves...they've been in continious operation for over a half Century now. I disagree with Mark's post (most all of it) though there is not denying that with Simplex you will get some seepage. The older castings are indeed more porous. However, one can normally get a superior image/sound from an older head than a newer one. One can certainly change out the lens mount without too much fuss either.

The Century is a cement mixer...a non-precision machine that seems to curn out movies day in and day out.

I've always preferred Simplex to Century though a Century JJ can do very well on 35mm, picture wise.

As for Kinoton...I don't know what Mark is so worried about with the Delrin gates/skates...they are in expensive and each year when you replace them, it is like having a brand new projector again with all new gate components. Note, the runner strips, like the Century "C", you get two cracks at them by transposing the sides. The gear train is pretty darn simple with a bicycle chain to link the sprockets to the intermittent. They also won't piss oil all over the place like a Super.

The PK60s have proven to be the most reliable and least expensive projector to keep running. We have many of them out there and they just seem to go and go. They are quiet too. Remember, you only have to buy the machines once, you have to live with them for a long time. Initial price should not be the only concern. You are not going to get a Mercedes at Cheverolet prices.

As for the Kinoton E projectors...Mark is just plain wrong...I service probably as many or more than anyone on them...and they are in places that run ALL types of films...new, old, cut up or prestine...in all cases they really spank all other projectors in steadiness. The new "Premier" versions are said to be 4-5 times steadier than previous "E" projectors which in an of itself could mean increasing picture resolution significantly since the image is steadier in the gate (in excess of 100 l/mm). If you are having problems with FP30/30Es being fussy with film, it is the technician or the projectionist, not the projector.

Nobody believes in the 2-projector concept as much as me so I would agree with Robert on this one.

Steve

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 05-07-2007, 07:36 PM:

Any of the equipment named above, starting out in reasonably good condition will probably see you to the end of film.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-07-2007, 07:42 PM:

quote: Mitchell Dvoskin
Nothing beats a restored Simplex XL...

quote: Steve Guttag
However, one can normally get a superior image/sound from an older head than a newer one.

Ok Mitchell and Steve... Lets explore why older Simplex's might be better...

A. They have quite inferior/extremely porus main castings which are not heat treated.

B. Almost none of them still have those super high quality made by Simplex Stars and cams that made them such rock steady machines when they came out. Todays Stars and cams are crap comparatively.

C. Sure you can replace the stretched out lens mount and lens bushings in a jiffy or two(plus labor)... expensive parts too... but off hand I can't think of another projector with this problem... Brenkert possibly.

D. All of the super high quality made by Simplex rubber shock mounted gearing has since been replaced with solid hub phenolic or composite gearing due to rubber deterioation. This allows for higher operating noise levels and more vibration.

E. All the film path parts today are newer parts made by either LaVezzi or Wolk. They're not quite as well made as the original Simplex parts but are pretty good overall.

F. The need to replace most shutter housings and back covers because they buckled under heat from old arc lamps... also expensive parts.

G. The need to replace those buckled and leaky die cast gear compartment doors... another expensive part.

H. The primitave bushing system on the upper and lower sprocket shafts. The shafts always clog with bronze particles and film gunk over the years.

While Steve can say these older Simplex's are the best made he is forgetting that there are few to none of the original parts on most of them, and its those old parts that made them good machines [thumbsup]

. The good is gone Mitchell and Steve... Sorry, rebuild one with todays parts and end up with the same performance as a new one!

quote: Steve Guttag
I service probably as many or more than anyone on them...and they are in places that run ALL types of films...new, old, cut up or prestine...in all cases they really spank all other projectors in steadiness.

I find it amusing that you admit that you even have to service today's electronic machine, in fact almost hilarious. The most in service I did on the RCA electronic machines was replace a blown fuse and go through the servo alignment procedure... considering all the analog circuitry in them they were amazingly stable.

The 2-projector booth for this guy is a good idea.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-07-2007, 08:49 PM:

Sorry Mark...unlike Century...most of our old Simplexes are still running the old gear trains....yes the shutter drive gears, if the old rubber shock mounted are often replaced by now (if not all)...but that is about it.

I don't know too many that run Simplexes that feel the need to rip out their lens mounts. Though if you want current Strong lens adapters to fit, you should consider it. On a small percentage, I've found enough slop in the focusing rack to warrent it. As compared to Century which is nothing if not sloppy...Simplex running 50 or so years owes nobody nothing.

As to your humor on the Kinoton FP30Es...I guess you can chuckle over symantics since you have no facts to back things up. By service I mean have under my care and/or have sold. About all they need are check on the belts, Orings (pinch roller and flywheel accelerator for rock-n-roll machines) and brushes for the frictions every few thousand hours of use and the dreaded delrin skates every year...big deal. They are STILL cheaper than most any other projector to keep. It is not like they are losing major components or showing signs of increasing sloppiness.

[edited to remove OT bickering...SG]

[ 05-08-2007, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-07-2007, 09:23 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Sorry Mark...unlike Century...most of our old Simplexes are still running the old gear trains....yes the shutter drive gears, if the old rubber shock mounted are often replaced by now (if not all)...but that is about it.

Personally both my customers and I prefer reliability to the possibility of loosing a show because someone left the old rubber mounted gears in place. They make for a smooth running machine but the loss of a show is not woth it. BTW: there were three of them on each X-L.

quote: Steve Guttag
I guess you can chuckle over symantics since you have no facts to back things up.

Ahh wrong again. I can definately back up these claims as well as introduce you to others that have operated and installed them with poor/inconsistant results. I'm not willing to do it here out of respect to the customers that are stuck with them.

Don't know what it is about the 650... it's last few years of gestations sound great... much better than 5 or 6 years ago, but so does the JSD-80 for the most part and it has a few advantages that the 650 doesn't. For those needing just the B chain for D.C. or digital audio playback the USL is tough to beat.

Mark

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-07-2007, 11:21 PM:

I'm tired of the pissing match, I just want good advice and not all this! What I could extract form what Steve says and Mark says and what all of you have said is not much. Fragments of rants. I was just looking for help. sorry to bring this one up. Only good confirmation I got was "yes good idea to put in two projectors instead of just one". I know this... I'm really confused [Confused]

Mike

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 05-07-2007, 11:36 PM:

Now Children! Time Out.

It's always fun to see two opinionated guys go at it.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-07-2007, 11:47 PM:

If you have customers that have problems with FP30Es, you have technican problems or operator problems...respect or no to your customers, FP30Es are superior in just about every respect. They are in use by studios and the most critical screening rooms there are. They are under the biggest microscopes. You are pretty good about making claims that you just can't back up. If you have specific problems with the projectors (without identifying their locations to protect the end user), post them and perhaps there is a way to correct the complaint. (it would probably be best in a different thread) I hope it isn't something related to some quirky Kinoton control logic where they think that turning the audio LEDs on at changeover instead of motor start (easily overcomed by the installer). That sort of thing deserves public flogging.

[edited to remove OT bickering...on topic bickering remains SG]

[ 05-08-2007, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by Phil Housh (Member # 1721) on 05-08-2007, 12:08 AM:

[Smile]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-08-2007, 12:20 AM:

My apologies...I'll stop.

As to what projector...if you read each and every thread you will find that EVERY projector has its fan and following...both old and new.

You will never find the one and all inclusive winner. As such, a thread such as this isn't likely to get you a consensus winner for your quest. If it did...we'ed already have THE projector and that would be the only model available (why would anyone buy any other?).

It is really a matter of pros and cons to each model and they all have them. You really need to discuss what it is you are looking from the equipment to find the right match for you. You probably oughtta discuss it with your dealer to find that match.

Again, my apologies for public spat.

Steve

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 05-08-2007, 01:06 AM:

Its all part of Film-Tech. If this site has proved one thing its that there are very few pieces of cinema equipment that there is any consensus of opinion on. The few that do more often than not tend to be viewed in a negative light for whatever reason.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-08-2007, 01:23 AM:

the XL has it's oil leakage problems (which can be under control if a good seal replacement and gasket set was in order) whereas the Century doesn't. Just grease the gears one a month and keep the oil level at line in the intermittent assembly on the Century...and if you can find a SA with the R3 soundhead..

With the Simplex, make sure of using curved gates (if you can find a good PR-1014, which is the single lens model, or a PR-1050 being the turret variety), for these are good machines for your kind of use, especially if you can put either one on a SH-1000 soundhead, but the "5-Star" does justly as well-as long as it's been rebuilt with new drive shaft,bearings and belts..the round tooth variety.

As Steve mentioned above being there will be the followers of certain units..

Personally, I'm a Christie P35GPS guy, but I now work with Simplex and Century now and have adapted to their workings with the plus side to the Simplex due to the many years of working with the XL variety and they have proven themselves worthy in all my operations.

So, if it was my choice, I'd swing towards the Simplex, but don't take me for gospel..the final answer has to come from the user himself...since we are here with suggestions to help the person out with that question, but not to make minds up.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-08-2007, 03:18 AM:

quote: Michael Moore
I was told we have to buy from one of the venders on our list for reasons I do not know. However I have been quoted from two places the price on a new Simplex Apogee and the Century MSC projector with lens turret. I was also quoted a price on a refurbished XL and a Refurbished older Century. Out of all of these listed which would any of you pick and why?

Given what you have stated above, it sounds like you are being screwed into purchasing Strong projectors. Whatever dealer that is doing this is probably getting a SWINGIN' deal on them and making a killing off of you. Why can't you get a Kinoton if you want? Why not a Christie or a Cinemeccannica? Personally I would steer clear of this dealer because Strong's products have been quite awful in recent times.

Assuming however you are screwed into picking from specifically those projectors...

Apogee - godawful!!! You will be hard pressed to find anyone with good things to say about this. The ones I have seen in operation had unbelieveably bouncy images, and every print in the complex was scratched (no doubt because of the retarded lower loop design that offers zero tolerance for a misthread.)

Simplex XL - the fact that ALL Simplex soundheads have the "dirt embedder" roller is enough to steer clear of these beasts alone. However add to the fact that there does not exist a Simplex that doesn't leak oil, why screw with it? Yes they are reliable, but in terms of print damage vs. just how much more reliable they are over say, a Century...it doesn't pay to go Simplex. (There will be Simplex gurus following my post claiming they never have any film damage. Hogwash! They just aren't being picky enough to see it or they don't have enough light on their screen to be ABLE to see it.)

Century - others will disagree, but I believe this is your best pick. What this offers you is the LACK of oil being slung around your booth and onto your film, plus no foolish soundhead design with the "dirt embedder" roller. Of everything you listed above, it is the best "film handling" projector of the bunch as well as the most forgiving of minor threading errors. New Centurys though pretty much suck (although not as bad as the Apogee or an XL.)

Refurbished older Century - this is your best choice ASSUMING it is being rebult by Hadden. If you cannot get this in writing, stay away and go with the new one.

So there's a straightforward answer...for what it's worth. Personally I think you should go with a Kinoton though because Steve is correct in all of his points.

This reminds me...definitely go 2 projectors. It is generally agreed by most that if a print is to be run less than 3 times before returning that it is best handled on reels. Platters force unnecessary handling of the film when you are only going to run the show once or twice as compared to reels. As such they only become a benefit if you are showing the film multiple times, at which point a properly set up and operated platter becomes less wear to the film in terms of it's care.)

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-08-2007, 04:46 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
the fact that ALL Simplex soundheads have the "dirt embedder" roller is enough to steer clear of these beasts alone.

I had a devry with that same roller. On the third passage of a film I noticed what looked like platter marks down the middle of the print [Eek!]

I quickly quit running anything on that machine.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-08-2007, 05:37 AM:

quote: Michael Moore
I'm tired of the pissing match

I guess you are not going to like this site!

Micheal your question has already been answered, go second hand.

Overall there is no real winner of the ultimate projector, at the end of the day, no mater which projector you get, new lenses would be more noticable! I personally do not have a favorite out of the many mentioned, I have worked with and respect them all.

Posted by Will Kutler (Member # 770) on 05-08-2007, 06:00 AM:

EGAD MONTE! The Christie projector [Confused]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-08-2007, 06:15 AM:

If you want the steadiest image, Kinoton is the clear-cut winner. If you want the cheapest to maintain, Kinoton is the winner (though a fully gear driven Simplex might be on par). If you want the best soundhead, Kinoton is the clear cut winner. If you want the cheapest to buy...Kinoton does not win that battle (it did for most projectors back with the dollar was strong to the Euro).

For special venues...which yours qualifies...2-projectors are always preferred...regardless of the quality of projectionists. If they can thread one projector, they can certainly thread the other and more threads per show equals a faster learning curve. What you can do is run 20-minute reels for short engagements but if you have another long termer, have some hour reels to minimize the changeovers...though I fail to see how making a changeover every 18 minutes is such a burden...in a single, no less. It tends to have the projectionist pay more attention to the image by forcing them to get up and look out the port more often.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-08-2007, 07:40 AM:

If you get the second projector, you should consider keeping the platter, too, if you have the space and can configure it to feed either machine. This provides a nice backup in case one projector or lamphouse has issues.

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-08-2007, 09:35 AM:

we have the space. for two projectors and one platter but it's cramped.

I'm thinking of pushing towards Century, I have been happy with century in the past. I can get my stuff from Hadden no problem with that. I think what is really going to push this is budget.

I will take a pic of the booth tonight and post it for you guys.

Mike

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-08-2007, 09:37 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
Whatever dealer that is doing this is probably getting a SWINGIN' deal on them and making a killing off of you.

I believe that Brad has probably made the most important point on this thread. Watch out for those dealers selling you a package deal from one manufacturer... package deals from one manufacturer NEVER represent the best of everything there is and quite often represent the worst possible combination of stuff available, Stong Booths come to mind immediately. Dealers typically make from 5% to 15% extra for selling a package that might consist of projector, platter, automation, or other accessories. In all fairness just about all of the larger manufacturers like Strong and Christie do this.

Indeed your time in the next 6 months would be best spent getting to know other dealers near you, especially competant ones, and once you are comfortable with a dealer getting him ok'd and onto your ok to purchase from list. I always find that places that stick to those types of "buy only from these guys" lists ALWAYS come out on the short end of the deal and are then stuck for decades with equipment that doesn't suit them.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-08-2007, 01:51 PM:

quote: Will Kutler
EGAD MONTE! The Christie projector

..don't knock them. I ran 5 prints of "TITANIC" using these things and after 6 months of running this movie, the last of those 5 prints left our complex with no scratches on them - like the other 4 prints.

One of these clean prints went to a 2nd run house in town that next spring that has STRONG PR1050's and it didn't take two weeks for scratches to envelop on that print - mainly from those "dirt embedding" lateral guide rollers, but from lack of booth training as well.

-Monte

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-08-2007, 02:09 PM:

So I'm wondering why a Strong dealer would be pushing Century and Apogee, but not Millenniums. [Confused]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-08-2007, 02:19 PM:

quote: David Stambaugh
So I'm wondering why a Strong dealer would be pushing Century and Apogee, but not Millenniums.

Simple - MIL2K machines are prob tons better than either one of the other two...and he's prob either got stockpiles of both from customer returns due to unsatisfaction, or STRONG is cutting the dealer a smashing rebate if he sells either one since the MIL is their front runner product and STRONG will not offer any cut if a MIL is sold..like a car dealer selling both Yugos and Toyotas-which one is he gonna push out the door at any cost...?

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-08-2007, 02:26 PM:

It's funny how with all the "strong" (heh) opinions expressed in this thread, nobody said "Forget about those, if you think you want a Strong product, look at the Millennium instead". I'm just saying. [Wink]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-08-2007, 02:35 PM:

Yes, David, I agree with you. Maybe Michael needs to ask the dealer on the MIL's .. instead of the other two ... and see what the dealer's reaction would be...that would definitely be interesting to find out for sure from the results of that conversation...

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-08-2007, 02:36 PM:

Or maybe the guy thinks the Millennium is out of the price range you want? Like to bring in the car salesman: I looked at some cars a while back (have to again since mine is really on it's last legs). I was asking in the $10K range. When the guy found out I was saving for grad school, he pointed me toward a significantly cheaper car that was used but probably would've lasted me the few years of school.

So it's a combination of both wanting to get rid of something that isn't as useful to you along with what the customer needs.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-08-2007, 03:21 PM:

Either way a turrett is a very undesriable piece to have in a specialty screening room. So that rules out the Christie as much as I like it. A pair of new PR1014's, the Kinoton PK60, or a Hadden Century rebuild would be my only choices to install.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-08-2007, 04:50 PM:

Remember a Strong dealer can sell, PR1014s, Milleniums, Centurys, Apogees...they are all Strong now. The price for an Apogee is identical to the Milleniums, idenically equipped. So it really is the customer's choice on those. Centurys are more pricey since they don't sell anywhere near as many. I have seen no incentives what so ever to sell one model over the other other than their list pricing. I'm sure Strong would take the sale regardless of badge on the projector so long as it has a Strong badge on there too.

Strong does offer package pricing but it must include a complete system...projector/soundhead, lamphouse/pedestal (or console), transport (or second projector) and lenses. While package systemd don't always offer the best of everything...I like the Super Lume-X a bit (and the Ultra-80)...the 2500B does offer very good lamphouse adjustment. Strong power is not significantly better/worse than others (and they have it in brute force as well as switching) and while some will like Schneider more on lenses, nobody would rate ISCO as anything worse than their #1 or #2 lens. I guess what I'm saying is that with the varitey that Strong offers, you could certainly do worse than one of their packages.

As has been demonstrated a bit above, people have strong opinions on what is good/crap so the reasons for pushing one piece over another may just be..."I've had real good luck with....yadda yadda yadda"

Taking a look in the picture gallery at the South Branch Cinema 6 one can see how I've mixed in and matched to achieve what I feel is a very high bang for the buck system. I should also point out that the proper use of Film Guard has extended the life of the Kinoton skates to about 4000-hours each!

I do agree on staying clear of the turrets in a venue such as this though I'm surprised that the Christie does not offer the single lens holder. I know I've mounted my single lens holder on them to align the console/projector and they bolt right up and are pin registered. Christie absolutely wins on the machining to precision contest. I still don't care for their gear/belt system, nor can I forgive all the pain their earlier incarnations have caused me an others over the years.

In case Christie still makes it...the Lens Mount and Focus assembly (complete less lens holder) is/was 119239-001. The lens holder itself is/was a 119238-001. As I said, they WILL fit the current models (just remove the turret catch arm and mount the lens mount using the same hardware and it is all pin registered).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-08-2007, 05:02 PM:

Chrstie discontinued the single lens mount system way back when they discontinued the P-35 version with the shutter gear box. If they have any its by chance. They "think" everyone out there wants a turret....

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-08-2007, 06:18 PM:

Having installed 2 complexes in the last 6 months with Christie projector heads, I can report that the current Christie projector is nothing like the bouncy godawful earlier incarnations. In fact, even though I LOVE Kinoton, putting the two side by side in the same building on the same screens, from a viewer's standpoint...the current Christie is an amazingly close second!

It is important to note that the Christie has a much better designed turret with the ability to correct for side to side as well as top to bottom focusing issues during install, whereas the Kinoton is very limited. (Making ANY adjustment is essentially starting over from scratch, and god forbid you have to remove a lens from the turret...getting it precisely lined up is a bitch because simply tightening the lens holder screws throws off not only positioning on screen, but focus too.)

Christie's aperture design is also far superior to Kinoton's in that there is no play in the aperture when the machine is running, and if the foundation and such shifts a little bit, the Christie is effortless to re-tweek via the turret.

The only thing I really do despise about the current Christie is the soundhead design. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate that damned o'ring they put on their sounddrums and the longer arms are a major pain to thread. I used to could thread a Christie in under 5 seconds with loops sized precisely to a specific sprocket hole (witnessed by many) every time. Now thanks to that soundhead design it takes me several times longer. It also puts extra stress and wear on the airpot. Overall though I can put up with it given the new round tooth belts and injection molded pulleys which were shown at ShoWest 2007 that will be amazingly cheap and easy to change out.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying the Christie is as good as a Kinoton, but it does have some better design aspects and it is a close second. The Kinoton's strong points are that it has the best on screen resolution and you will never, EVER need to focus it regardless of what warped, buckled or mangled piece of film you run through it. The Kinoton's chain drive system is also impossible to beat. It's just a chain! The Kinoton is essentially a projector that does not need routine maintenance, with the exception of making sure the skate alignment does not slip. If it does, the skate will be chewed up by the intermittent sprocket within days, but like Steve pointed out, they are cheap to replace.

If you were to bring ANY current model Strong projector into these comparisons, the Strong would fail by a large comparison on every point in terms of performance. In terms of support, I've also experienced the worst from any projector manufacturer from Strong. (Reportedly staff has changed, so maybe they have improved lately.)

So I guess my point is twofold. First, the Christie package is a pretty damn good one, so "packages" aren't always a bad thing. Second, do what you can to get your dealer to let you get something else. You are really getting bent over if they won't let you purchase through another manufacturer. (I suspect though that they will be more than happy to quote you on other equipment on the surface, but in reality they will price jack up the other guys so much you will be forced to go with the Strong. This happens all the time.)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-08-2007, 06:46 PM:

I have just about zero experience with the Kinoton Turret and have heard other people mention the same things about them (lack of adjustability and such). The Strong or Christie turret is bound to beat it for lens adjustment...though I've seen many a turret cease to be very precise any more. They are unsuitable in most of my rooms.

The Kinoton manual turret uses their standard aperture plates so the problem Brad mentions should not exist on the manual turrets.

Too bad about the Christie single lens holder...it really was a rather nice piece...quite precise (I know it existed in the P35-C version too, first curved gate but with shutter gear box).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-08-2007, 06:47 PM:

I pretty much agree with everytihng Brad says above... Though if you do a 2-machine booth you won't need a platter or automation. Assumingly your dimmer is a stage type system and not something mounted on the wall in the booth. Dimmers systems such as a Strand or Colortran are top notch...

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-08-2007, 06:52 PM:

I would disagree Mark. A 2 machine booth NEEDS an automation. I prefer to configure them in a situation where the system can be run 100% manual (for those guys stuck in their ways like Guttag), or semi-auto (basically manual, but with failsafe protection monitoring the shows) or fully automated changeovers (in case you fall asleep during the movie).

Steer clear away from the Strong dimmer inside their console. I've had nothing but problems with it. For a cheap, super reliable dimmer...nothing beats a Kelmar! [thumbsup]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2007, 07:33 AM:

Brad,

I just don't believe in selling something that soneone doesn't need. This place has a paid projectionist! Automation turns good paid projectionists into lazy projectionists! Even the local 110 guys had cots in many of the booths [Roll Eyes]

. That they slept on the job is why some of them don't have jobs any more. Its easy to automate at a later date anyway if its ever needed. The other BIG problem with that Brad is that the next person to be running that booth won't know how to run that automation... I find this to be the biggest single problem in many plex's as well, even with simple automation installed. Kids WON'T take the time to read the instructions.... they typically are not paid enough to want to do so, some I'm convinced can't even read. Sure you can train them till you're blue in the face but those that do care are smart enough to leave and are off to make $2.00 more an hour at McDonalds three weeks later.

Agree on the dimmers... Kelmars are the best stand alone dimmer available!

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-09-2007, 10:38 AM:

Actually I think the best stand alone dimmer is the ash TEC8112 dimmers
Other than that I think the original poster is wrong in his assumption that his question isn't being awnsered
It has as the pros and cons have been well expressed and if he is purchasing then he needs now to weigh each of the posts and make a decision

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-09-2007, 11:07 AM:

I can see pros and cons in many of the posts, but it seems that there are people with really strong feelings against others, instead of staying on topic things went way in left field into a rant; back and forth of who does this and who does that and who does not service well and who's customers are happy with service. If I wanted that I would have changed the topic to "who thinks they are better at service" or "Who has the biggest Ego here on film-tech".
So far what I can tell is people really like Kinoton.
I have about $8,500.00 to spend so I'm think that is out of the picture right now. Like I said a several posts back I can get the Century rebuilt by Hadden with no problems. I can fit that in the budget. I will have to wait for another grant to come along to get Projector 2 up to par.
As for Automation!
EVERYTHING other then the platter is MANUAL at the Schwartz center

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2007, 11:47 AM:

quote: Michael Moore
but it seems that there are people with really strong feelings against others, instead of staying on topic things went way in left field into a rant; back and forth of who does this and who does that and who does not service well and who's customers are happy with service.

Actually the ranting is in reality a very good aspect of these forums and many take part, it can be very productive if you look at it from the right point of view. Ranting brings out many strong points(and some weak) from everyone's point of view that you might not otherwise be privy to learn about. There are no hard feelings taken between anyone here that I am aware of and every year at Showest we all eat together at Quarks(or eat too much cheese)together. If you think the ranting here is useless then you ought to sit in on a "60 Minutes" production meeting over at CBS!! They literally at times climb down each others throat. Its as ruthless as ranting gets over there to have a segment you want to do get put into production and aired.

Mark

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 05-09-2007, 12:18 PM:

Well I do not know about the Strong, Century products but I definately would recomend Kinoton or Cinemeccanica. Anyone you choose will last. Both are Damn good machines and you could get a refurbished Cinemeccanica quite cheap. The only thing that I would recomend if you get a refurbished unit is to replace the gate with the new curved gate design for better picture steadiness. I doubt you will find a second hand or refurbished Kinoton but I don't think the price you have to offer satisfies a Kinoton. If you are thinking about lasting and reliability, I can say for surely and I do feel very very strong about it that the Cinemeccanica is the most reliable projector in the market. Good luck with your choice.
Demetris

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-09-2007, 12:24 PM:

whoops..accidental dbl posting

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-09-2007, 12:26 PM:

Agree with Demetris - I'd kill to work with CINE V-8's again.

I've seen Norelco's, Kinotons and Bauers work and they definitely beat the pants off of the domestic brands hands down.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 05-09-2007, 01:16 PM:

I'm with Gordon on the Ash TEC8112 architectural dimmers. I've yet to see one not outlast the building they're installed in. When it comes to cinema installations they'll usually outlast the life of (and get installed in) two or three cinemas.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2007, 03:11 PM:

I absolutely agree on the Ash dimmers. I'd consider using them if they were price competitive with the Kelmars.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-09-2007, 03:27 PM:

I would add to the rant; but.....my wife tells me there is no reason to listen to Rush because she can get that at home for free with no radio. Louis

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-09-2007, 03:28 PM:

On the topic of dimmers, I've had good luck with Ward-Leonard "Vitrohm" rheostats. Plenty are still in daily use 80+ years after being installed.

As for stuff that is actually available new, Superior Electric makes a variety of autotransformers, some of which have motorized controls and could (in theory) be connected to an automation system if one wanted to do that (I don't quite see the point of automation in a single-screen house, but whatever...). Don't look at the prices.

The Kelmar electronic dimmers work, but my objection to them is that the fade-up rate and fade-down rate are not independently adjustable. Normally, I would prefer that the fade-down rate be about twice the fade-up rate (I like a very slow fade-up), but that isn't possible with the Kelmars.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 05-09-2007, 03:57 PM:

V8, V5 or even the undying V4. Try for a refurbished V5. Perhaps you could get two by paying a bit more. After a look I had at ICECO catalog it seems like the refurbished V5 is at your reach if you can find a dealer or your dealer who can supply you these.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-09-2007, 04:31 PM:

Huh? The Kelmar dimmers we use have separate up and down fade rates (we use the Deluxe House light dimmer a bunch...it has High, Mid, Low and OFF as well as a built in Bypass circuit...that is the "Deluxe" part).

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-09-2007, 04:42 PM:

Hmm...I'll have to check. Maybe I'm thinking of something else.

Edit: Steve is right (as usual). I must have been thinking about a different product. In any case, I consider separate up/down fade rate controls to be necessary for an electronic dimmer.

[ 05-10-2007, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Scott Norwood ]

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 05-09-2007, 05:53 PM:

Scott,

The Court Theatre is a single screen with simple automation. The ticket girl pushes the button in the office, the yellow "ready" light goes off and the green "Run" one comes on. Presto! The house lights dim, the curtains begin to open as the studio logo hits the screen. The sound goes from non sync to Dolby SR. At the end of the feature and just as the credits begin, the house lights return to full, after the credits and while the rating is on the screen, the curtains close in readiness for the next audience. (Or to keep the dust from the cleaning crew off the screen)

That is what the automation does in this little single screen. And, by the way, we have three stacked Superior Electric autotransformer dimmers with a single motor to operate them. All this from a little Eprad Co-operator and some custom built interfaces.

KEN

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-09-2007, 07:41 PM:

On the topic of dimmers we have three ETC Sensor-family dimmers; ETC-48 racks each with 48 dimmers each. All controlled by a DMX512 signal and computer. This system is so sophisticated that I was told I can dim just one light fixture-I have no clue how and why I would do this. We have probably close to 12 or 13 light fixture families some having up to 10 fixtures each. Also the dimmer system is for the stage lights as well. To address fade up I can have this system fade up slowly over duration of time but it is set for a slow fade up and a moderate fade down by default.
I have an unlimited range from almost nothing to full lights it is an amazing system. Probably one of the better things we have besides the QSC amps and Crown processors. There’s a remote dimmer panel in the booth I have up to 8 presets. I do not know how the projection can be tied into this system but I bet it can be done.
Found out today that we are getting $11,000.00 because we got a nice donation from a local supporter. So I’m moving up. I used Cinemeccanica V5’s in the past and really liked them, and then I used Century and found to like them as well. And finally I have the Super simplex and I like it too I just have a hell of a time getting the thing to stop ghosting! But I have to say I remember having very stable images with both the V5 and Century. I don’t remember what Century projectors we had but I really liked using them and they had a very steady image. The Super I have now had a fairly steady image but some films were worse then others. After the intermittent problem I have never got it back to having a steady image. The ghosting has always been an issue.
[Confused]

Mike

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2007, 08:34 PM:

ETC is excellent stuff and they do make an interface that can allow you to tie into your booth gear if you decide to automate the booth... its known as the A-V interface and I have a picture of one somewhere that I tied into at the Boise Egyptian Theater.

I was both the Strand and Colortran area tech for about 5 years and I ran into ETC gear all the time. It pays to have sophisticated dimmer systems like those in special venues and museums. I believe the Imax standard is a 48 channel Strand dimmer rack combined with both wall mounted Premiere Architectural controllers allowing presets and a booth located Dimmer board. The flexibility with DMX-512 based systems is practically limitless. FWIW: Colortran was bought out by Leviton a couple of years before I stopped doing that type of service work and the company by then was basically ruined and the gear was touch and go for reliability. I would not reccomend Colortran to anyone any more.

If you still need that Super movement just let me know, I'd be happy to send you one that I know is good this week. The ghosting could be several things but first check your shutter timming and be sure that the adjustabble blade part of the shutter is set properly. If its adjusted near the edge of or right at pulldown then there may be some light bleeding by when the film just starts to move or just before it stops moving.

Mark

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-10-2007, 11:04 AM:

Mark
I really need that intermittent. Email me directly and we can talk about it. Because I'm not going to purchase anything new until I get the full amount in the account. This may take several months and I need to keep this supper running. I may need some help with that shutter timing. I played with it for hours one day and got it just right but as soon as I run film for a while or the Frame knob is moved just a little the shutter goes out again.

Mike

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-10-2007, 12:52 PM:

Michael,

If the machine ghosts when you turn the framer be sure the G-3 Framing Slide Arm Assy. that rides on the A-27 intermittent framing sector is moving... it may be stuck. If this cam sticks it will not allow the compensator gears to slide back and forth allowing things to keep in time. The compensator mechanism or as they call it the Shutter Gear Bracket assy. in the manual is the rectangluar block where the shutter drive gears are. This mechanism is shown on page 23(PDF). The G-116 gear is the gear that slides back and forth and advances or retards the shutter timming when you rotate the framer.

The Framing Slide Arm Assy., G-3 is shown on page 33(PDF) and all this stuff has to be freely moving and not binding when the framer is turned in order for timming to stay coordinated.

Hopefully this will help and not seem too confusing.....

Mark

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-11-2007, 07:55 PM:

I just got home from the theater and I noticed something I never noticed before I am missing one tooth on the sprocket of the intermittent. Could this what is causing ghosting issues or unstable image? I check everything you listed Mark, all is work smooth. If I get the ghosting to go away at the bottom of the image then the top is out and visa versa. I can't find the middle for some reason. I have never had a problem like this and I think the intermittent is suspect. I can't wait to get the one from you.

Mike

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-11-2007, 09:02 PM:

yes, a missing tooth will cause the problem, replace the sprocket before thinking of the intermittent.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-11-2007, 09:30 PM:

[Confused]

(I can see both sides missing a tooth causing ghosting, but just one tooth gone?)

Interesting. I know of one Century with one tooth gone on the INT sprocket and no evidence of ghosting....and it's been this way for years..

Besides, if both were gone and in the position of the initial pulldown, you'd have snarled film in the trap.

Wonder if the drive, or driven gear on that SuperSimplex is worn, have lots of gear slop, or damaged teeth on the fibre gear that is causing some of your ghosting issues..OR, we could pick on the shutter with this one as well..the fibre shutter drive gear is worn as well...being that the shutter gear is metal

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-11-2007, 09:53 PM:

quote:
Interesting. I know of one Century with one tooth gone on the Intermittant sprocket and no evidence of ghosting....and it's been this way for years..

The one time I had one 35mm tooth missing (on a century jj), It was picked up on the first screening after an incident the night before. Image was noticeably poor, we swapped projectors (2 projector and a long play)and replaced the sprocket immediatly.

It was many years ago now, I remember the image shake, not necessarily ghosting.

Perhaps its a case of which actual tooth?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-11-2007, 09:59 PM:

..this missing tooth on that Century that I mentioned was the outboard tooth. I talked to the operator there (been there for years), he knows about that tooth being gone (his story was that his relief did the classic "no-no": cleaning while the machine was running that took that tooth off the sprocket) ,yet figured that it didn't hurt the pict any and just left it as is all of the years this 3plex was in operation.

Also, this was a narrow tooth (foxtooth) sprocket making it easier to bust teeth off if accidently hit with a solid object.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-11-2007, 10:15 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
his story was that his relief did the classic "no-no": cleaning while the machine was running that took that tooth off the sprocket

Exact same reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-12-2007, 07:28 AM:

Again this intermittent was one that I got from a box that said overhauled on it. I did not notice the missing tooth before. I never clean while running.
I do have some slop in the gears not lots but there is slop.
there is no gear teeth missing or damaged on the fibers. I just replaced them with ones from my second projector.
If I grab the intermittent flywheel and move it in the direction to projector moves or back; there is slop before the other gears engage or start. I think this slop comes from the intermittent itself.
I'm not messing with changing the intermittent sprocket on the starwheel shaft right now. I'm going to change the whole movement out with one that Mark is sending me, I should see it in a few days or so.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-12-2007, 09:16 AM:

I need your shipping address if you are to see it....

Mark

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-12-2007, 11:59 AM:

I replied to your email

I sent you a Private Message

with my address

again Mark Thank you

Mike

Posted by Matt Zeiner (Member # 1914) on 05-14-2007, 08:55 PM:

Sure sounds like an improperly set adjustable shutter or an issue with the compensator as Mark suggested to me.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-14-2007, 10:48 PM:

I'm still curious as to what projection equipment he is going to go with.

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-15-2007, 07:12 AM:

At this time I do know we are going to get something in the ball park of 10,000.00 and 11,000.00. I have prices quotes from Cinemasupply for a Simplex Apogee and a Century MSC, I also need a new rectifier but I already have that picked out and will get it from them. I have prices for a new Kenoton and sound head from Cardinal sound and Motion picture and it's not much more in price over the all in one Century MSC from Cinemasupply so they are in my mind still price competitive unlike some people said.
I also have my eye on the Rebuilt Century from Hadden and got a quote. If I get a Century from Hadden, I will have money left over to get the rectifier, and new bulb, as well as some other supplies to keep us running. I also will use some of this to get RP-35 and some other stuff for setup. I have my eye on it because I am very familiar with Century, and I can get projector two up and running by saving and adding to the money we will have left over. Also I am thinking of keeping the SH-1000 penthouse for now because I do not have the equipment to do an A-chain alignment and I'm happy with it and it works great, the century should fit to it like a glove. Next on my list is a o-scope and RTA after I have both century projectors. I finally will get new sound heads and up-grade my current sound processor. We have BACP reverse scan going into a CP-50 as a pre-amp that goes into a LEXICON DC-2 as the processor.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-15-2007, 07:53 AM:

If you want to put the Century on your SH-1000, you'll need to get the non-direct-drive (non-"M") version and the coupling gear. Also consider a rebuilt X-L/PR-1014, which will also work well on the SH-1000.

You'll need a loop of RP-40 (aka PA-35) to cut the aperture plates for whatever you get, plus buzz track, Dolby tone/pink noise, and left-right loops for doing the sound alignment. Oscilloscopes are available cheaply on Ebay, while RTAs are more scarce. With the BACP reader, you can probably get away without the RTA for the A-chain by leaving the HF EQ set to the minimum. It might be cheaper to pay someone to come out and do the sound alignment once or twice per year than to buy all the test films and equipment.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-15-2007, 08:17 AM:

Kinotons are reasonably close from the factory (soundhead A-chains). Though we often will tweek them in the shop to avoid having to do A-chains in the field (we do this, if time permits regardless of the projection system supplied).

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-15-2007, 08:29 AM:

I do not share the universal dislike of the SH-1000. I find it to be reliable, solid, and easy to deal with. While wow & flutter are not its strong points, with reasonable maintenance, the roller is not a problem either.I would probably never replace the SH-1000; but if I did, only a Century would be acceptable. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-15-2007, 03:19 PM:

While I personally like the SH-1000 alot the Century projector/SH-1000 is far from an optimum combination. Worked for a chain in the 80's that had alot of those setups... The intermediate drive gear coupling the projector to sound head is ALWAYS noisy! I would reccomend getting the Century sound reproducer at the same time from Louis.

Mark

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-15-2007, 03:22 PM:

I share the same thoughts on the Sound head! SH-1000 are great and if you maintain the roller once a weeks or so and really clean it there are no problems with dirt. If I were to replace it I would get a Century to go with the century projector. I really want to learn how to do the A-chain I actually already have an O-scope, came out of our electro-physiology lab at work. It works and is really nice.

We have a guy who comes in twice a year to do an A-chain. He charges us several hundred each time. But he told me a few weeks ago that he will charge us much more now. I think he is feeling the gas crunch? I think I can manage without the RTA for now if I have to do a sound head alignment as posted before.

when I get pictures of the theater posted here everyone will see what kinds of stuff we have for sound. WE have some really nice stuff and some not so nice stuff.

Mike

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-15-2007, 07:10 PM:

Come pick up that projector in Louisville. I will show you how to do an A chain. It is impossible to accurately do an A chain without an analyzer since eq and phase cannot be accurately set. Tracking of SR and the matrix phase will be horrible. (Level, eq, and phase all are required to be perfect.) Louis

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-15-2007, 07:31 PM:

sounds good to me!