Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What do I need to go Dolby Digital

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Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 05-09-2007, 07:29 AM:

A small theatre wants to go dolby digital as about half the films they play are arthouse/foriegn with only DD on the film. Their setup is a Cp55 with a SRA5 w/ two cat 280's cards. What do they need to get this done? I can get my hands on a DA20 but its not cheap ($4000.00 CND) also I guess they need a Split Surround card for the Cp55 as they only have a 241 card now, are they easy to find? any help would be great. Also they are going to get dual basements readers for DD and Analog (Kelmar or Component?)

Thanks

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-09-2007, 07:36 AM:

I don't know the CP-55 very well, I've only seen one once, co I can't comment on necessary card upgrades etc.

Are your amps, speakers etc. up to the job? we only have analogue on film, which works fine, but we had problems when we added a DMA8 plus to go with the digital projector. The speakers in general, and the sub in particular, didn't like it; looks like we're going to need some upgrades. I think going digital is the last upgrade you should do to a sound system; get everything else right first (if it's not already).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2007, 08:03 AM:

If that DA-20 comes with the reader than 4000cdn is not all that bad of a price, but without a reader you will need to add another about 2500cdn or more to that... then you are half way to a new CP-650 which ouwld be the best route if you can! Used DA-20's will command a high price as they are out of production.
Assuming the rest of your system is up to digital you will need a 441 card which is easily installed in your 55 to take advantage of the split surrounds and possibly additional power amps in order to properly split up the surround channel.

I say jump on it... there are not many DA-20's around.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-09-2007, 08:14 AM:

I think you have covered the basics, DA20's have been phased out, so a second hand one looks cheap compared to a new 650. Obviously you do have a good speaker system? resonable acoustics, sub ect and an additional amp for the extra surround channel and an easy way to reconfigure the surround speakers wiring ect.

Stephen is correct, the speakers and acoustics can provide the most dramatic and noticable improvement to the way a cinema sounds. So if you have great analogue sound, digital is a bonus. If you want to upgrade because it does not sound great. Adding digital wont make a noticable improvement.

[ 05-09-2007, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Cameron Glendinning ]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-09-2007, 08:24 AM:

Cameron said, "I think you have covered the basics, DA20's have been phased out, so a second hand one looks cheap compared to a new 650."

That confuses me a bit. DA20s have been discontinued, so the value of a secondhand DA20 has increased, because there is still demand. So, in general, a CP650 is a more appealing solution today than it was a year ago.

$4k CDN is a pretty good deal (around $3.6k USD). They were a bit north of $5k USD when discontinued, and I hear they command around those prices still.

There's also a Cat.700 in the forsale forum right now...

--jhawk

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-09-2007, 08:43 AM:

In a 2-machine booth, you would also need motor-start relays installed to control the changeover logic in the DA20.

Which brings this to mind: are the relays actually needed, or would it be sufficient to replace the motor switches with double-pole switches and use the second pole to control the DA20?

Also, the USL/BACP reader works quite well and may be cheaper than Dolby readers (assuming that you want penthouse readers).

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-09-2007, 08:45 AM:

quote: Cameron Glendinning
If you want to upgrade because it does not sound great. Adding digital wont make a noticable improvement.

And could sound worse if the rest of the system isn't up to handling the increased dynamic range of the digital tracks.

If everything else is up to scratch, then go for it; the price sounds pretty reasonable. I seem to remember that when the DA-10 and CAT 699 were introduced the cost was about 20,000 pounds, but I think that included installation, and I don't know if it was for one machine, or a pair.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 05-09-2007, 09:53 AM:

Dolby actually is making it a monopoly with the CP650D now offering the only solution for DD because you cannot use a cheaper processor with a Digital Adapter! With all the D Cinema hype though is hard to be able to attempt to release a new Digital Adapter like the DA20. RoHS played a big part in the discontinuation of the DA20 and unfortunately as far as I know and some other people in here said, Dolby has no plans on releasing a substitute to the DA20. In an Art house though, I would not recommend Digital system. Here in Cyprus we did an installation last summer with DTS XD10P and JBL range speakers in a college cinema where they mostly play European films which usually don't have DD and are very very happy with the quality of sound. I believe that a good Reverse scan reader like a BACP and a well equalised analog system will sound very good. If you do not have a Reverse scan reader installed on your projectors, perhaps you could first try installing a reverse scan reader and see if there is any improvement on the sound. Now also there are other milion reasons why a cinema might sound bad but lets not get into that. Perhaps you could mention what brand of speakers you have, how many, what is your projector brand e.t.c.
Demetris

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2007, 12:10 PM:

Actually I think they are in left field not to license the DD playback scheme to other companies like USL, they'd make a fortune as they have done with Pro-Logic and other broadcast schemes. It is somewhat of a monopoly but then you do have a choice to go with DTS if disks are avaialble for your films. If Dolby made a replacement for the DA-20 you'd see CP-650 sales drop considerably but it could be quite inexpensive to produce a relacement and it would be just a single rack space unit.

Mark

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 05-09-2007, 12:19 PM:

Dolby SHOULD make a replacement for the DA20. The problem as I said before is the big hype about D Cinema which will NEVER LAST!!!!!
Demetris

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 05-09-2007, 12:50 PM:

What about a used Cp500? would that do the trick?

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 05-09-2007, 03:00 PM:

quote: Paul Gordon
Their setup is a Cp55 with a SRA5 w/ two cat 280's cards. What do they need to get this done?

You will also need a cat 441 card (to replace the existing 241) and you will need to do some modification to the backplane of the CP55.

quote: Paul Gordon
What about a used Cp500? would that do the trick

Make sure it is a CP500D which has the SRD playback hardware inside (you will know by looking, it will have the card with the single digit LED display in it)

-Aaron

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-09-2007, 10:31 PM:

quote:
The problem as I said before is the big hype about D Cinema which will NEVER LAST!!!!!

Yes the Hype will disappear, but the projectors will continue to replace 35mm, and eventually be way better than 35mm, just don't hold your breath.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 05-10-2007, 12:09 AM:

quote: Cameron Glendinning
Yes the Hype will disappear, but the projectors will continue to replace 35mm, and eventually be way better than 35mm, just don't hold your breath.

Erm... Won't happen
1. Because the film is drawn from the original negative thus there is no deterioration
2. Because Digital media is compressed in any way you see it. You can compress and reach to a high level but NOT film standard although today the difference to a customers' eye is not noticable.

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 05-10-2007, 04:39 AM:

Demetris that is how it happens currently, but soon or at some point it will all be shot electronically and compression will become much less of an issue as storage and speed of storage increases. Digital cinema is here to stay, just how much longer 35mm has is the question....although I would say in 10 years it will still be here.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 05-10-2007, 06:56 AM:

Yes Digital Cinema is happening...

But I'm hoping I have a least 5-8 years to use these 35mm projectors and I want digital sound.

Canada seems kinda slow on this digital thing, I think they only have about 6-10 digital screens in the whole country.

AMC is building a huge new complex at Younge and Dundas in Toronto I wonder if they will be digital cinemas....

One final question can the DA20 run with two projectors? most of time it will be a plattered film...but flicks we only play one or two nights will be change over on 2000ft reels

anyway thanks for the info... I guess i'm on a hunt for a CAT 441

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-10-2007, 10:15 AM:

quote: Demetris Thoupis
NOT film standard although today the difference to a customers' eye is not noticable.

Then what's the problem? 99.9% of people think CDs sound better than LPs, which is why CDs are now the dominant music media even though many people SWEAR that LPs sound better. The same is happening (or will happen) when digital replaces film across the board.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-10-2007, 10:21 AM:

The DA20 can handle 2-projectors just fine. You will need motor-start logic lines to feed the DA20 so it knows which projector to look at and when. These can be of the form of a relay whose coil is across the motor windings or a double pole switch (one pole is for the motor, the other is for the DA20...don't cross them).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-10-2007, 04:30 PM:

The problem with LP's is that to get the most out of them requires an expensive setup... SACD's or DVD Audio discs will typically blow the pants off the same title LP. CD's have gotten better and better all these years for sure but it seems that some Mastering places never learned to produce decent Masters.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-10-2007, 05:06 PM:

Just like film prints...it definately seems to be all over the place. I have some LPs that just dance all over their CD counterparts...then again, there are some pretty incredible CDs, SACD, DVDs out there. I don't think you could come up with a hard and fast rule that says an LP of the same recording as a CD will guarantee you a superior result. Sound is so subjective anyway and there are MANY MANY permutations that go into how something sounds either digitally or analog...you will always be comparing the setup as well as the media.

Posted by Joel N. Weber II (Member # 3530) on 05-12-2007, 10:28 PM:

With all the screens that are ripping out film projectors to install D-Cinema, I'm surprised there isn't a large supply of film sound equipment on the used market.

Posted by David Graves (Member # 4069) on 05-13-2007, 04:38 PM:

quote: Demetris Thoupis
2. Because Digital media is compressed in any way you see it. You can compress and reach to a high level but NOT film standard although today the difference to a customers' eye is not noticable.

A little off-topic, but I see this coming up time and time again. Remember- over 85% of films, and nearly 95% of films with digital effects, are scanned and color corrected digitally. Used to be nearly entirely 2k, but is now increasingly 4k, though 4k is expensive and therefore post houses have been slow to adopt. Then they're printed back on film via a DI (digital intermediate) process that creates the internegative. This started recently, with O BROTHER WHERE ART THOU being the first film to go through to process (at 2K res), but it's quickly become industry standard.

So virtually every film you run now is already maxed out at 4k, and often 2k. There's additional compression to get it to D-Cinema, but increasingly not enough to really notice. You can occasionally even see digital artifacts in 35mm prints (KILL BILL comes to mind).

But don't get me wrong, I still think D-Cinema generally tends to look like canned crap.