Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Input needed about those Long Play Towers (Kintone)

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-30-2007, 06:45 AM:

We are outfitting a booth that is so small it is really a closet. We used to have two Eastman 25Bs in there but they are long gone and there was no film at all. Now they want to refurbish and want both film (35mm) and video, so I am stuck with only one 35mm projector -- so it's gotta be compact -- I am leaning toward the Kinotone FP10. Thing is, I am not to crazy about the spindly legs as opposed to the more robust sturdiness of the FP20A. I assume these are identical mechanisms just attached to different supports. And since I will be using the Long Play Tower (SPT5000), there really is no need for the extra bulk of the feed and supply section of the console model, other than the additional support it gives. If they are identical machines (except for the pretty substantial cost savings on the FP10), do you think I should just ignore my concerns about the stability issue of the FP10 -- people knocking into it and such? Maybe just sit the feet in cement anchors or something.

And secondly, being that it is an integrated soundhead, the natural thing would be to just get their basement digital reader, but I was wondering if I should forego that and still get the Cat 702 to sit on top -- would the dolby give me any advantage?

Thanks in advance.

Oh, yah, and did someone say Dolby discontinued the DA20? And replaced it with what?

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-30-2007, 08:56 AM:

Nothing. It's either a CP-650 or a secondhand DA-20 now.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-30-2007, 01:35 PM:

On first glance...have you considered the FP25D? It is an FP30D mechanism with the SPT5000K underneith of it...as such...quite sturdy and most compact.

As to the readers...Kinoton's reader is superior to Dolby's in most all respects (how well it tracks...it is the same CCD board) so no...it would be almost stupid to not use the Kinoton for that.

For Dolby Digital with new equipment, your choice is the CP650 with the appropriate (or no) suffix.

I have no experience with the FP10's support legs so I have no comment there and all of my column projectors have been FP30 varients for recent stuff so I have no comment on the FP20A either. I do know the FP20A doesn't have the hinged door like the old FP20 nor the current FP30s so one has to remove the panel.

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 05-30-2007, 02:47 PM:

Frank,

As far as I know all projector/soundheads or combos will fit any of the older bases such as Simplex, Century, Ballantyne, Motiograph or any other. Those are very stable and no one is going to knock them over. There are plenty sitting around and they should be cheap.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-30-2007, 07:49 PM:

actually older soundheads used multiple different bolt patterns for mounting so pedestals need a different bull nose depending on the soundhead
a used Eprad sword would work

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-30-2007, 08:00 PM:

I'd also put a vote in for a Sword, if you can find a decent unit (and reels that aren't bent to hell). But, beware... Jumbo Swords (which held double-feature reels) had a higher optical centerline, so most existing portholes are too low for them. Standard Swords were, well... standard height.

FWIW, Century, Simplex, and Ballantyne all used the same pedestal neck bolt pattern. Motiograph was it's own thing, and RCA had their own.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-30-2007, 08:14 PM:

Remember very old RCA's (1040-1050) were made by Simplex and had Century/Simplex bolt holes. This might help in a budget situation. Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-30-2007, 09:33 PM:

Where did the Century/Simplex or pedestal conversation come in? The man was trying to decide between an FP10A or a FP20A with an SPT5000K. I brought up the FP25D because it combined all of the benefits Frank was looking for in one package.

To compare an EPRAD SWORD to a Kinoton SPT5000K is to compare a fine precision machine to a tinker toy. As to the projector, to not use a Kinoton would be to also not want as good an image as a Kinoton can put out or have the Kinoton RSSD soundhead which again is superior to alternatives.

[ 05-31-2007, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-30-2007, 09:46 PM:

Is a SWORD the same thing as a double-MUT? Or are they different? Other than the slow rewind time, the double-MUT seems to be gentle on film and takes up little space.

As far as I know, the only Kinoton that mounts to a standard base is the PK-60, which uses the Century bolt pattern.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-31-2007, 05:01 AM:

Which wouldn't make sense either because the Kinoton lamphouse puts out more light and more evenly than any other. You can typically run them one lamp size smaller than most other lamphouses. No hotspotting and dark corners. So there is no point in mounting a PK-60D to another console or lamphouse.

Frank, like Steve said, what you want is the FP25D. Or buy cheap and pay twice.

Or, if you have room problems, how about a TK35 [Big Grin]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-31-2007, 06:35 AM:

Funny, this thing all came about because some VP was hobknobing with a potential donor and I surmise in the course of cocktails and brie, it was mentioned that a donation was in the offing for some worthy project....this led to that and it wound up, how bout money be donated for running movies -- what a concept --that's always a good, hi-profile hook to hang a donation on. The VP then rushes to us and says, put together a package to run film in the Gershwin Theatre (our 475 seat house). Me thinks the VP is so removed from us that he doesn't know we have been running film in the Whitman Theatre for 30 years -- it's our big, 2500 seat, recently refurbished to the tune of 5 million dollars house. I think he proposed the smaller theatre off the top of his head because that was the name that popped into it.

Well, anyway, now just got a price for the FP20A. Hahhahaa...wait....let me gather myself. You see, all I have ever done was work with USED equipment. The FP20A tag was an eye-opener; I haven't seen new prices for a long time.

OK, so now I'll use my eraser and put down a Christie P35. But while I put together this package, I am working with my boss to gently inform the administration that, hello, we DO run film and perhaps it would be a tad wiser to just upgrade the the 2500 seat house which just got a new screen, not start from scratch with the run down, small theater. Perhaps they will see the wisdom of what I speak....and oh yes, be apraised that WE ALREADY DO FILM at the performing arts center.

So immediately, if they see the error of their ways and give me lots of money for the Whitman booth, I want to get top of the line ISCO lenses for my XLs, a supply of carbons to last till I either retire or die, whichever comes first (let the next guy put in xenon), a Panastereo processor with a DA20 before every last one of them is sold off the shelves of every supply house in the country (what an incredible nasty blow for every manufacturer who makes cinema processors not to have a digital adaptor to mate to it -- anyone buying a new system will have no choice but to buy a CP650, right?).

Anyway, that's my plight. Working with higher up officials who are, how shall we say....oops, better not; we are not alone.

Coffee's run out....see you guys later.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-31-2007, 07:00 AM:

Frank, why not by secondhand equipment, of whichever make you choose? Good reconditioned equipment will probably las as long as you will, and will be cheaper.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-31-2007, 04:21 PM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
Frank, like Steve said, what you want is the FP25D. Or buy cheap and pay twice.

quote: Frank Angel
OK, so now I'll use my eraser and put down a

Frank, do you actually read the replies posted here for you or are you so busy typing in your long and detailed posts that there is no time left for that?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-31-2007, 05:14 PM:

Well if the FP20A price scared him...the FP25D will put him in the coffin...it is around $2K more for the mechanism. Remember, there is that 35% Dollar to Euro conversion that is making everything coming from Europe significantly more expensive. There isn't enough profit in typical cinema equipment to absorb such a hit.

That said, the FP25D/E is still the proper projector based on the space described.

Steve

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-31-2007, 05:40 PM:

Well, the stuff also actually costs money in Europe, too, and the profit margins aren't any bigger either. But it just makes more sense to spend a little more money and then enjoy many, many years of high quality performane with potentially very few and little problems.
They could probably also put together an FP25A, but apparently, we aren't talking about $2k more or less, it looks like all of that is totally out of reach for that budget.
But yes, I can see how the current (or rather ongoing) low value of the $ really makes that too expensive at this time.
Funny though how many people here want to buy those German cars - which aren't exactly cheap either - because they think it makes *them* look good, but when it comes to springing for a little more to make an image on the screen look really great, every single buck is too much...and then some are very ready to sink megatons of dough into the digital fantasy...but that is a completely different subject.
Maybe a TK35 is really what Frank needs. It looked good enough for the comrades, so why not?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-31-2007, 09:22 PM:

Mike, it really depends on the venue and the funds. The range on the costs projection equipment is really VERY large. Compare an FP38ECII with all options to say a PK60D. One is in excess of 10-fold the cost of the other from the same company. Their feature set is also VERY different. Even further, one is probably unusable for the other's use, yet both do run 35mm film well.

If a non-profit gets a grant or a donation...that pretty much limits the amount one can spend on that without further fund raising...quality or no.

A for-profit business will always have to weight the extra cost of something (for quality, perceived or real) versus the profit they will gain from the extra expendature. A failing most business people make is that they have a hard time figuring out how much business they lost by a inadequate level of quality (perceived or real) to justify spending more. Unfortunately everything really takes away from quality...very little can be boasted about adding to it and if it can be boasted, IT IS "marquee value." Things like 70mm, or Digital or Stadium seating...and such. Boasting Kinoton will not likely increase ticket sales that would turn into popcorn.

However, I maintain that improved projection and sound, DOES keep customers and gets referrals to keep/increase ticket sales which turn into popcorn sales.

However, you are absolutely right that $2000 over the life of the projector...is only $40/year for 50-years or even only $200/year for a short installation of only 10-years.

Based on the environment described, the Kinoton FP25D/E (E would be steadier...but even more expensive) is the "correct" choice but they can either afford it or not.

As to the Dollar/Euro thing...when the Euro first started and we went away from DMs...Kinoton became rather inexpensive (as compared to similarly equipped USA machines) since the dollar was notably stronger than the Euro...my how times have changed in just a few years.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-31-2007, 09:52 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Is a SWORD the same thing as a double-MUT? Or are they different? Other than the slow rewind time, the double-MUT seems to be gentle on film and takes up little space.

A sword uses the same reel-powering mechanisms as the Double-Mut. It also has a powered 2,000 foot spindle for makeup/teardown. All of the ones I have/had have automation units, very similar to co-operators. Swords could be configured to operate by themselves, or in pairs. One set I used to have was able to control a bi-directional Century projector, supposedly rewinding its film while the other was playing. My understanding is that you could make the booth a hands-off operation, popular with single-staff porn operators. I never heard anyone say the rewind concept worked very well, though.

I always liked the Sword. Clutch-type takeups don't provide constant tension, putting a lot of stress at the beginning of a reel, and being pretty loose by the end. The Sword/Double-Mut "powered spindle" system was constant throughout... even with those huge, 4-foot double feature reels.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-03-2007, 02:52 PM:

Yes, Michael, I certainly do read the posts -- every word, especially when the guys are good enough to take time to answer a question I asked. And not for nuttin, but you have been known to wax poetic in your posts on occasion, and I don't make fun of you! [Wink]

The Kinotone is just beyond the budget limits of this project. I can't hand the administration a proposal that will make them just walk away and leave me with nothing. Going with a Christie will be fine and I won't have to walk around with my head down in shame.

And Stephen, as for second hand equipment -- that's what I would always consider to be a viable option -- I work in four venues that all were outfitted with used stuff to no apparant disadvantage. But, unfortunately, when dealing with a performing arts center that is regulated by its parent college bi-laws which are regulated by the City of New York which is governed by the regulatory comptroller of the State of New York, buying secondhand, even though in the end it can save the tax payers lots of money, is verboten and against about a half dozen laws and regs -- we simply can't do it.

But I will still go with the Kinotone tower; the savings alone in not needing to double the lens component (for all 5 formats) will be substantial, even though it will preclude duel strip 3D, which was also an idea bandied about.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-03-2007, 03:07 PM:

ernaman makes a nice little package as well of a long play on a sword type base with the pix head on top

[ 06-03-2007, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Gordon McLeod ]

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 06-04-2007, 08:12 PM:

It seems to me that a fifty year plan isn't going to pan out at this point in time, ten or fifteen years at most will be as long as the machine will be in use, and at that, film use will taper to non existence in the last several years.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-05-2007, 07:55 AM:

The Ernemann looks sweet, but are they still being made (remember, we have to buy new) and more importantly, are there dealers here in the states? What would a ball park figure on this be in terms of a whole package -- lamphouse pedestal/film transport and modular head as opposed to say a Christie package with a Kinotone transport?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-05-2007, 07:59 AM:

Check out the Cinemeccanica long-play base, too. If they still make it, I'm sure that Jack Roe USA would be able to help you order one.

Out of curiousity, why would you pick Christie over, say, Simplex? Don't you already have X-Ls in another theatre? If so, wouldn't it make sense to get more of the same unit so that you wouldn't need two spare-parts inventories?

Also, what is the size of the room? I've seen some pretty small booths with two (or more) machines. See the pictures of the GCC Screening Room and Wellesley College Cinema.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-05-2007, 08:52 AM:

Ernemann also has a model E14 projector which has the automation functions built in the head. They are still in production and are part of Cine Project which is a large German Cinema Service Company. Big Sky / Xetron and others handle the product. I personally have one E15 system set up for 16/35mm + pedestal transport and a smaller E12 16/35mm unit which are used for rentals.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-05-2007, 01:37 PM:

Has Ernemann yet to provide an exploded view of the projectors with part numbers? If not, I'd stay away from them.

The FP25D from Kinoton is everything you saw in the Ernemann picture but with a better mechansim and superior film transport. Note too...Ernemann also comes from Europe so they too have a surcharge associated with them (dollar to Euro).

Steve

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-05-2007, 03:51 PM:

I'll put an M-80 in one of my machines and send you the photos of the explosion [Big Grin]

. Their drawings are pretty adequate [Cool]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-05-2007, 10:03 PM:

What drawings? While we were servicing them...we never got anything relating to the gear train.

Posted by William Bunch (Member # 1040) on 06-08-2007, 06:59 AM:

Frank, we have been using the Kinoton FP25E for about four years now and love it. It is very compact and very nearly maintenance free. Our booth is only eight feet deep and there is still plenty of room to walk behind the machine.

We are a military base and our movies change daily and alternate so a platter system was out of the question for us. The 6,000m (3hr) reels do the job nicely. At any one time we can have nine features "reeled up" and ready to go.

We do the build up and tear down on a separate make up table but the FP25E's spool tower can also be used for the same purpose in a pinch. Features can be rewound on the projector also.

We were very lucky when we bought this one as the US Dollar was very favorable to the Euro at the time. Too bad that is different now as that is the only negative feature of this otherwise perfect package.

The "D" model would be a little cheaper but since we are located at the very far end of the supply pipeline (northern Japan) we chose the electronic version. Other than routine cleaning of the fans and lamphouse this system has been almost maintenance free. Not so the Simplex XLs we had before. Although those XLs were still going strong after 50 some years.

Last month Sony sent a team around to the military bases for a one night preview showing of Spiderman 3. They brought with then their engineers who had nothing but praise for how well the image looked on the screen. And as Brad has mentioned here before the basement Dolby reader has no trouble tracking digital in the low numbers.

http://www.kinotonamerica.com/cinemaEquipment/fp25e.asp

Good luck on your venture.

[ 06-11-2007, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: William Bunch ]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-11-2007, 01:36 PM:

Thanks guys. This was all in the preminary stages and I was just trying to gather some opinions. I now have to wait till all the bureaucratic nonsense is danced before I know what they actually can spend in hard cash. Until then, it's a lot of speculation. But I will definately try to go with the Kinoton, probably FP60 and go cheaper around the rest of the system. This way I can have a superb mechanism even if I have to economize elsewhere -- like telling them to give up the video projector....hehe

And Scott, the reason I was looking at Christie over Simplex was because I have worked with the new Simplex P35 and have had more small but annoying problems with it than one should have to put up with on a relatively new projector (only 5 - 6 years old). I never liked the feel of those machines as well. On the other hand, I am impressed with the Christie P35GPS -- everything on it feels solid. I really do like the idea of the integrated mechanism and soundhead.

As for parts -- we don't keep a lot of parts; anything that is needed has to be bought on the spot.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-11-2007, 01:54 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
I have worked with the new Simplex P35 and have had more small but annoying problems with it than one should have to put up with on a relatively new projector (only 5 - 6 years old). I never liked the feel of those machines as well. On the other hand, I am impressed with the Christie P35GPS -- everything on it feels solid. I really do like the idea of the integrated mechanism and soundhead.

Finally someone that is with me on Simplex reliability. Strong has done some good for the Simplex but they've done more bad things to it than I can list. You shouldn't have to Loc-Tite gate parts in place to have them stay together! I replaced two intermediate drive gears in the same complex today!

I completely agree on the Christie and the P35GPS is getting even better with the addition of new round tooth timming belts and pulleys. There is also a molded composite curved runer available for it that is much lower friction and cheap to replace like Kinotons film path parts. Ultramittents rarely fail any more and I can't remember the last time I replaced one... its been at least several years. I have locations whose Ultramittents are 12+ years old and still run like new. This also says alot for the use of synthetic oil!!! Any competant dealer could easily mount a Christie P35GPS on top of the Ernemann or Kinoton Sidewinders for you.

We have a number of the Ernemann setups that I service including one 16/35 at the Ogden Egyptian and Slumdance has I think a half dozen of them. They have given very little trouble overall but the soft edge on the aperature is a big down side. The nice part is that the gate bands come standard with velvet covering and they are fairly inexpensive to replace. The turrett is seemingly clunky but locks perfectly every time you close it. It slides forword to thread and theb locks back. It travels on a high quality linear ball bearing track. I also dislike the dead wheeling sprocket in the sound head just like in the old DeVry. Thats a very poor aspect of the Ernemann. So I like Steve's reccomendations for this BUT...

Also consider the costs of large reels and appropriate film handling gear to go along with them. Todays large Goldberg reels are absolute crap compared to what they used to make and they will not stand behind their poorly made product! We have a local Drive In that uses large reels with Cinemacannicca towers and the new 36" Goldberg reels hubs are falling apart just after warranty on them runs out. The same Drive In has other Goldberg 36" reels that are 10 to 15 years old and still running just fine. If you go large reel then definately try to get the European wire reels when you order the equipment as they will hold up better.

Mark

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 06-11-2007, 02:12 PM:

The integrated mechanism/soundhead is mainly a european standard. Kinoton, Cinemeccanica, Prevost have been following this for years now and I find it to be the best thing. Christie has tried to penetrate the market by offering a lower price projector with almost the same features as the European ones. The downside to the european projectors is the unfavourable exchange rate of Euro Vs Dollar that is why Christie also sells great bunches in Europe.
Demetris

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-11-2007, 04:02 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
Thanks guys. This was all in the preminary stages and I was just trying to gather some opinions. I now have to wait till all the bureaucratic nonsense is danced before I know what they actually can spend in hard cash. Until then, it's a lot of speculation. But I will definately try to go with the Kinoton, probably FP60 and go cheaper around the rest of the system. This way I can have a superb mechanism even if I have to economize elsewhere -- like telling them to give up the video projector....hehe

I will try to keep this short so it is easy to read, Frank. [Wink]

Again: you buy cheap - you pay twice. That is a law of nature such as E=mc2.

Don't save money in the wrong place. Again, with the Kinoton lamphouse you get more and also more even light, typically even with one lamp size smaller than many other lamphouses. So you start saving from the moment you first switch on the lamphouse. The initial investment may be bigger, but in the long run, you will end up spending less money on parts and problems.

If cash is a problem, try to think of ways to raise some funds. Apparently, you already have an initial donation, maybe there is a way you can get more sponsoring to supplement that. It often helps if there is already a donation, potential donors like to think they contribute to something "big". I don't know what the standing of your theater is in the community, apparently it is some kind of "arthouse" theater which some people may see as worthy to support. There are also a ton of prominent film makers in and from NY, maybe you should write to some and ask them if they would like to support you in your continuing effort to uphold cinema as an art form. Or something like that.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-11-2007, 06:59 PM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
Again, with the Kinoton lamphouse you get more and also more even light, typically even with one lamp size smaller than many other lamphouses.

Not necessarily true. I;ve seen Christie lamps on DP-70's do better in the light department than a Kinoton lamp. The Egyptian Theater in Hollywood was a good example of Christie outdoing Kinoton. Also if one uses a lamphouse that is very efficient going to a smaller lamp than say a 2kw is foolish because the smaller lamps typically don't give the operating life of the 2kw lamp and the net cost is more per hour. Going from 3kw to 2kw makes much sense though if you can get away with that... rarely though.

Mark

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-11-2007, 11:16 PM:

Not rarely. 3k lamps are very common, and many of these installations could easily run 2k in a Kinoton lamphouse. Which many auditoriums with comparable scree sizes did with very good results in the theaters I worked for in Germany.

I have seen the Christie lamphouses in the Egyptian theater, too, and that amazed me. Due to the much shallower reflector and shorter lamphouse, these lamphouses simply don't have as much light output, and they have other issues as well, including hotspotting and heat issues, so I was fairly surprised to see that and hear the story. But I only saw it "after", not "before". I wonder what the problem was there before, incorrect installation and alignment? I don't know. But I was really surprised to see that since I have seen many screens of that size (both 35mm and 70mm) which were easily lit with a Kinoton lamphouse, and with better and more even light, too. Even the old Royal-Palast in Berlin which allegedly had the biggest curved screen in Europe (102') still worked pretty well with the same projector and a Kinoton lamphouse. The Egyptian has pretty dark corners and not really very even light. But, like I said, I didn't see the "before", so I don't know what the problem was there. Certainly nothing that was improved by replacing the lamphouse with the Christie one.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-12-2007, 06:20 AM:

Christie lamphouses/consoles have notably higher heat output than even Strong and significantly higher heat output than Kinoton. Light uniformity is certainly significantly better on Kinoton's lamphouses than ANY metal reflector based lamphouse I've seen. I can say with relative certainty, I could match up a Kinoton lamphouse to a Christie (or a Strong) and achieve more light, more even light and less heat than a Christie. Several times I've matched a Christie to a Strong and the Strong has more light (Super 80/Ultra 80/Highlight (15" reflector) than the Christie (SLC40). Christie definately has more blue light which may give the illusion of more light but to the light meter...it is not the case and in terms of flesh tones...Christie ruins them. But sense most home TV monitors are set to 6500K or even 9000K most people have a poor reference as to what is correct to how the film was actually color balanced.

The SLC (SLH) optics are definately Christie's best...notabl better than the older K and H series reflectors. It is one reason Christie's Phoenix kit does wonders for CH consoles...you get the SLC light path.

I don't agree with Mark at all on not always going for the smaller lamp....the less heat you put on the film the better it will peform...not only with respect to fade but with respect to image resolution since it will swell less, heat the lenses less you will actually resolve more of the image. Since we typically get 5000 hours on the 1.6K lamps they are not thought of as real service issue...note too...not only do they cost less, they are consumming less power which also goes to the savings. I tend to be more of the run the next higher lamp in the lower portion of its range than the smaller lamp in the top portion of its range, theory group though.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 06-12-2007, 08:14 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
But sense most home TV monitors are set to 6500K or even 9000K most people have a poor reference as to what is correct to how the film was actually color balanced.

A white point of 6500K (or more precisely illuminant D65) is correct for TV, and telecine and TV production is done with this in mind. 9000K is obviously way off and should make people look blue, but then some sets have noticeable red push in the color decoder to attempt to compensate for that [Frown]

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 06-12-2007, 09:29 AM:

Color temp tv verses film brings up an interesting observation.

With NTSC D65 was choosen for an even balance of primaries Red/Green/Blue yielding pure white.

Film is D55 which should look slightly redder then d65 but it looks bluer or higher then D65. Why is that?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-12-2007, 10:35 AM:

Well you can go on and on with this issue. In fact you can replace the Kinoton reflector with the one from Roberts Film Service and have double or more than what the Kinoton is capable of doing. We have a couple of sites that have done exactly that. Don't forget that Christie also has a glass reflector available....

Steve,

The reason American Cinemateque took the Kinotons out at the Eqyptian and installed the Christies was exactly because of heat related issues. There were heat related focus problems there when running 70mm prints. Switching over to the Christies gave very noticably less heat related focus issues than did the Kinotons. If you want more exact info on the how's and why's of the problems the Kinotons were causing you will need to ask Paul Rayton about it. That pair of Kinoton lamps is now at their locaton #2 in Santa Monica runnign on a smaller screen with smaller lamops in them.

Mark

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 06-12-2007, 11:13 AM:

After checking all Christie houses in Cyprus I am positive that Kinoton lamphouses beat the heck out of Christie. I have seen same size houses with 4K on Christie projectors and they are nothing like the 3K we've installed in a theater in 2001. Even the 2.5K lamphouse gave better light than the Christie one. As far as heat problems, they run very cool and we never had any complaints nor from the manager nor from the projectionist.
Demetris

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 06-12-2007, 04:28 PM:

I did talk to Paul about that when I first visited the Egyptian, but that was almost 4 years or so ago, I totally forgot what he said. I am getting old... Could be though that he also spoke of heat and focus problems. But that's not a general problem with these lamphouses at all. What the actual problem was I don't know since I didn't see the "before", but this seems like a classic case of "throwing the child out with the bathwater", someone maybe didn't know how to set up and troubleshoot these properly and that's why they decided to throw them out and replace them with (to them) more familiar, but inferior equipment. That sometimes happens!

I remember seeing an installation in which all the optical failsafes on the FP50D had been bypassed and another brand of optical failsafe installed. I asked the installer why?, and he told me that "the failsafes don't work - they triggered and stopped the machine all the time". I asked him if he was aware that there is a little trimpot right there on the failsafe, under a small plastic ring, with which the sensitivity of the failsafe could be adjusted. But no, he wasn't. So he decided to bypass them and install all these other failsafes when he could just have pulled the plastic ring off, adjusted the sensitivity, pushed the plastic ring back on. Takes about 20 seconds for each.
Oops...

I looked at the Robert Film Services website (Mark - in case you wonder how I found it without a link, I googled it) but didn't find any information about that reflector except some flashy animations and the general info that Technalight is really awesome. I would like to know more about it, although I am very sceptical about dramatic claims like "twice the light output!" (especially when they come from Mark [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-12-2007, 05:02 PM:

To be honest with you Michael the US Distributer of Kinoton did the original installation of the lamphouses at the Egyptian. If they couldn't do the install and end up with the machines properly focusing then who could? One would tend to think they would know their gear VERY well.

We used a Roberts Film Service reflector in a brand new Kinoton Lamphouse at BYU on the Eastman 25. In before and after tests done at Full Aperature Systems in Chicago (the guys from BYU were also present when this was done)the Kinoton mirror was good but did not perform anywhere near as good as the Roberts FS mirror did. At the actual install at BYU I had the USL light meter and did a reading of 27fl +/- 2 fl withnthe 2kw lamp running at 70 amps, this was on a matte surface!

Next time you jet into Chicago I suggest you look up a chap by the name of James Bond at Full Aperature Systems so you too can see a before and after demo. James has more experience with Kinoton Lamphouses and various manufacturers mirrors including Roberts than anyone else here on this forum, and that experience be on all formats from 8/70 down to 16mm.

You can also come by Salt Lake City and visit the Redwood Drive In where there are 6 Roberts converted Christie lamphouses that were running 4kw, now running short gap and ROberts mirrors. Since the conversion they have picture quality as good as many indoor theaters. They did not chenge out any lenses there.

While you are here I'll take you out on a desert tour and into some of the old mines so you can get some Gold of your own.

I'm not saying thet Kinoton Lamphouses are not worth their price... but there are still other very viable and better reflector options and Kinoton does indeed sell the lamphouses without the mirrors if you ask. You can also take an old lamphouse that you paid $100.00 for and install these reflectors and still end up with it performing better than a very expensive Kinoton. Remember from a couple of years ago that I two was skeptical about the Roberts thing. I however tend to believe what James tells me because of his sucess on the dozens of high profile installs that he has done with them over the last few years.

quote: Steve Guttag
Christie lamphouses/consoles have notably higher heat output than even Strong and significantly higher heat output than Kinoton.

quote: Steve Guttag
Christie definately has more blue light

Steve says they have higher heat output but then he says they are more in the blue spectrum. The blue spectrum is actually the cooler spectrum of light... what gives Steve... this seems somewhat contradictory.... Perhaps the Christie really is more efficient at collecting light and they are controling heat going forword via the mirror coating. Makes good sense! Its color temp is more than likely not much worse than a Strong Ultra 80 with an added high end sharp cut off heat filter shuch as that made by Ultraflat. In theory if you are getting rid of the heat you are also getting rid of some of the visible spectrum as well.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-12-2007, 11:59 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Steve says they have higher heat output but then he says they are more in the blue spectrum. The blue spectrum is actually the cooler spectrum of light... what gives Steve... this seems somewhat contradictory....

Sorry Mark...thems the facts...the light is visibly and measurably bluer...typically 6500+ and most definately HOTTER. A Christie lamphouse will emboss B&W film much faster than a Strong or Kinoton putting out more light on the screen.

I'll take the Kinoton vs Christie challenge any day...I'll get more light/less heat on the Kinoton every time...I have no idea what went wrong at the Egyptian but something definately went wrong....having run 70mm in IMAX theatres using the DP70 w/Kinoton Universal 2-7K lamphouse running 7KW running both 35 and 70mm.

Having not really worked with the RFS reflector I can't comment on it. It may very well be better than Kinoton's Balzer reflector...Kinoton doesn't HAVE to be better...I just call it like I see it. I've put in a fair number of rather high-end systems myself and continue to do so.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-13-2007, 07:34 AM:

Steve,

I agree the Christie is bluer than the others, there's no debate on that from me. Excepting critical applications it really doesn't matter much. The thing that contradicts itself is that blue light by nature is cooler. There may still by UV or infrared being reflected forword and we wouldn't see that nor normally be able to measure it. However that can be taken care of by a sharp cutoff heat filter. I believe this is what was done at the Egyptian to end up with less resultant heat on the film than the Kinoton's were giving out.

Indeed if the Distributer of Kinoton Products can't make it work??????? Generally those guys do pretty good work but perhaps you could teach them a thing or two. I suspect that the solution was as simple as simple as including the correct heat filter? Not necessarily the one thats in stock on the parts shelf.

quote: Michael Schaffer
Again: you buy cheap - you pay twice. That is a law of nature such as E=mc2.

Michael,
This theory does not hold true for the RFS reflector conversion. Take any used $100.00 lamphouse and add his 2500.00 optical bench and end up with even more light and spend about half or less than half of the cost of the Kinoton.

Mark