Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Lettered Id's on heads & tails of Ocean's 13 prints

This is topic Lettered Id's on heads & tails of Ocean's 13 prints in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008761

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 06-07-2007, 05:04 PM:

I'm impressed. All three of my prints of Ocean's 13 had distinctive white lettering appearing prior to the start of every reel on the head leader, and immediately after the reel ends, on every tail.

Eliminates any reason to have head and tail ID frames left on the leaders.

Also should assist newbees to get print make-up correct.

Kudos to Technicolor Lab! Doing this on all prints would eliminate a batch of mistakes. Hope this is not an abberation, and that Technicolor will continue this practice. Maybe DeLuxe Labs could follow suit???

Also noted that all three prints were Kodak 2393 stock. Did everyone get the same stock? If so, WB spared no expense on this release. [thumbsup]

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 06-07-2007, 05:11 PM:

It should be done on every print.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 06-07-2007, 06:34 PM:

quote: John T. Hendrickson, Jr
I'm impressed. All three of my prints of Ocean's 13 had distinctive white lettering appearing prior to the start of every reel on the head leader, and immediately after the reel ends, on every tail.

Eliminates any reason to have head and tail ID frames left on the leaders.

I'm confused. How does lettering on the head leader before the picture starts and after the picture ends on the tail leader help anyone that needs help?

Learning to read the DTS time code still seems like the most reliable way... unless you mean that the lettering isn't on the leaders but actually along side the projected frames.

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 06-07-2007, 07:17 PM:

Sorry Daryl. You have to see it to understand what I'm talking about. I can't explain it any better than I have.

Sorry for your confusion.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-07-2007, 07:59 PM:

Come on, John, you can do better.

Is the marking on the leader, or actually on the movie proper? If the former, how does it help for the problem of knowing whether the previous theatre to platter the print attached the heads and tails to the proper reel?

--jhawk

Posted by Mike Heenan (Member # 392) on 06-07-2007, 09:04 PM:

Maybe someone can post a picture or scan so we can understand it.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-07-2007, 10:09 PM:

Daryl,

How about teaching a crash course in DTS time code reading?

KEN

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 06-08-2007, 12:04 AM:

The last four bits of the 20 bits between mark positions indicate the reel number. Look for a series of frames that the first bit toggles between 0 and 1 and use one of those frames. If you find a frame that has more than one bit difference it's the title serial number.

A one is indicated by a transition (a small white dot before or after a slightly longer black spot) while a 0 is indicated by no transition (a long white OR black spot). A sync mark is indicated by the combination of a really long white and black spot.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-08-2007, 05:14 AM:

But even as easy as that is to identify, there will still be people leaving ID frames on the leaders! [Razz]

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-08-2007, 05:45 AM:

Daryl,

Thanks for that wonderful information.

I will print that image and post it on the rewind bench.

Best system for identifying reels I have ever seen.

KEN

Posted by Matthew Jaro (Member # 1786) on 06-08-2007, 11:13 AM:

Reading the DTS codes is much easier than I thought it would be. It is really a foolproof way of identifying reels. However, some explanations please:

I notice that the frame number is 16 bits long. This limits it to 65,536 frames per reel. There are 30 DTS frames per second - so this is only 36 minutes of film. Is the frame ID variable length if necessary, or do the frame numbers repeat? I also thought that the title was encoded to keep the unit from playing mismatched films and disks.

While it's clear how the DTS codes eliminate the need for ID frames, I'm confused as to how white lettering on leaders and trailers eliminates the need for an ID frame. Please explain this or admit that you made a mistake.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-08-2007, 11:24 AM:

Just a warning about those splice markers. The lettering appears directly in the center of the frame. Not near the frameline where the cut would be made. This is important to know if you have fade ins or fade outs that do not have visible frame lines. People will still leave I.D. frames because from what I could tell the letters didn't really indicate what reel it was.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 06-08-2007, 11:25 AM:

After 65,536 frames / 36.4 minutes the DTS timecode would have to advance to the next reel. So if you had a print that for some reason had three 40 minute reels, reel 1 would be timecoded reels 1 and 2, reel 2 would be timecoded reels 3 and 4 and reel 3 would be timecoded reels 5 and 6.

Every tenth frame or thereabouts is the title serial number rather than the frame and reel count.

BTW... reading a frame number off of each tail leader is handy for determining running time when you've got a print that doesn't look to be the length you've been told.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 06-08-2007, 11:26 AM:

quote: Matthew Jaro
I also thought that the title was encoded to keep the unit from playing mismatched films and disks.

Print serial number != print number, no?

My print only had the markings on 3/6 reels oddly enough.
The markings he's referring to are "Reel # Head/Tail Splice Here" with a fancy lil arrow.
The funny thing was Reel 1 had this mark, with a line right across the frame line. Perfect!
But one of the later reels (4 maybe?) ends over black and the splice here mark has no line!

I didn't find it at all useful myself, just cool.
It would certainly help to keep som newbs from lobbing off 5 frames at the tail but it won't stop most booth monkeys.
Screw what the leader says...I personally take an ID frame on the head and none on the tail.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 06-08-2007, 11:36 AM:

quote: Dominic Espinosa
Print serial number != print number, no?

The serial number encoded is the DTS title serial number (the serial number you see listed on the DTS disc). It's the same on all prints (all printed from copies of the same soundtrack master).

Posted by Matthew Jaro (Member # 1786) on 06-08-2007, 03:52 PM:

Thanks for the explanation of the DTS codes. I don't know what I was thinking, but of course 36 min is enough for a reel -- unless they go to thinner stock eventually.

I still don't understand how the leader markings work. Are the arrows and reel numbers in the picture area of the print? If not, then how could it help and if so, the frame woud be projected. A picture of this would be great.

Posted by Larry Blake (Member # 1507) on 06-21-2007, 04:59 PM:

Hi Everyone:

I was the supervising sound editor/re-recording mixer of Ocean's Thirteen, and was responsible for the head- and tail leader that some of you commented on.

I'm happy that it had the intended effect, and am indeed embarrassed to admit that on some reels the "splice here" arrrow is, as was noted, NOT in the right place. As the saying goes, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

FYI: the film was indeed on Vision Premiere stock, as noted, and was in Premiere in the U.K., France, and North America.

Also FYI: The mix is 5.1, not 7.1 as O11 and O12 were. In the pre-DCI days of digital cinema release, everything was custom-custom anyway, and we had two sets of files (5.1 and 7.1) made. But, in this relatively early stage of DCI-spec distribution, and first-generation servers, I thought it the better part of valor to push the five-screen-speaker envelope this time. But, to paraphrase Ahnold, I'll be back there at some point.

And, finallly, a thanks to all of you caring projectionists out there, especially those who do a format change on your cinema processors so that after the trailers play at 5.0, and my feature plays, as intended, at 7!

Best regards,

Larry Blake
<email address removed per site policy>

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-21-2007, 05:14 PM:

Hey, I thought we discussed this 8-channel mix for SDDS on Oceans 13...are you saying that the SDDS prints are also 5.1 too few?

Steve

Posted by Larry Blake (Member # 1507) on 06-22-2007, 12:55 AM:

Hi Steve:

Yes, I had a typo; it should have read "...was the better part of valor to *not* push the five-screen-channel envelope . . . ."

We spoke before I had done the final mix, but, in the end, my music and effects stems. printmasters (and thus all resulting prints and digital cinema playlists) are 5.1 only.

I should also note a personal wish that DCI servers incorporate some sort of downmix function (from five to three screen channels), much like SDDS processors did when you told them that you only had three screen speakers, and they would fold down the five-screen speaker mix (if there) to three.

Although I didn't like their ratio, which sent 75% of Lc and Rc to their respective sides, and 25% of them to the center. This would throw off pans or "literal" Lc or Rc placement. Sony's putative reason for doing this was to not pile up the center.

Just my 2 cents . . . .

Larry Blake

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-23-2007, 07:53 AM:

Hi Larry

Did you work on Ocean's 11 as well?

That was a fabulous mix also. Good job on '13'.

Welcome to Film-Tech, btw.

John

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 06-27-2007, 05:40 PM:

OK, I've now seen a print of Oceans 13. The lettering/text (which is nearly identical to past attempts at this) does nothing to allow you to identify that a specific leader is for a specific reel number.

Further, I didn't have a single reel that had the text on both the head and tail leaders. On some reels the head had it, on others the tail had it, never both.

I suppose that it could help somebody that got their reels with the leaders mixed up when they go to re-attach the leaders (they won't have to rely on them being in the cans in the right order, somehow marked, or winding to the regular markings on the leaders) but without both the head and tail leaders being marked (or at least all of the heads or all of the tails) I don't see the point.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-27-2007, 07:02 PM:

There really isn't a point as far as I can tell. It's a nice gesture, but not truly useful.

Since almost everything is done with digital intermediates these days, I still see no reason why a black and white set of the first 15 frames on the reel cannot be reproduced between the "4" and "3" of the countdown. (I say black and white because there are some dumbshits out there who will try to "put back" the missing frames on a used print for a result that would be even worse than if they weren't there at all. It would also wreak havoc on the digital systems. Using black and white ID frames would prevent that.)

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-28-2007, 04:22 AM:

I took a look at these last night in their cans as I didn't get to build the show. A nice offering...

I remember when Bridget Jones' Diary came out they had 1st and last frames on the leaders just after the '3' I think. Unfortunately, it was the first and last frames for (eg.) 2a, 2b instead of just 2 as a whole piece, but it proved though it can be done. I've never seen this since though and no-one's offered another piece of assistance since then until now.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-28-2007, 07:25 PM:

So, can someone post a picture of this footage, please?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 09-15-2007, 08:44 PM:

Sorry for the delay. Us non-theatricals are behind the times.

Sorry for the whacko crop. Not sure what I was thinking.

--jhawk