Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Obsolete Dolby sound formats.

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-01-2007, 08:13 AM:

How widely used were the following sound formats:

Dolby mono.

Dolby stereo, no surround.

Dolby 'A' four track magnetic.

Can anybody give examples of films which were released in these formats?

On the Dolby 'A' magnetic tracks, was the dreaded 12kHz. surround switching tone system still used, or was abandoned, due to the noise reduction on the surround channel? Or indeed, had it already been abandoned in any case by the time the Dolby magnetic prints were introduced? What, and when, was the last film to be released with the 12kHz. switching system?

When Dolby SR was introduced did it immediately replace Dolby 'A' on film prints, or was there a considerable period of overlap when both systems were in use?

There have been four channel Super-8 magnetic releases, with Lt on the main, and Rt on the balance stripe; have any of these used Dolby B, or indeed any other form of noise reduction?

I have run a couple of matrix encoded Dolby 'A' tracks on 16mm fullcoat magnetic, but these were the filmakers own prints for his own use; was there any other use of any noise reduction on any 16mm prints, e.g. for television use?

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 07-01-2007, 09:28 AM:

When Dolby SR was introduced there were only select releases at first. If you couldn't afford the cards, you could rent them from Dolby. This went on for almost 5-years. Then Dolby stopped supporting A-type and only printed SR. If you paid the licensing fee, then you got SR.

Then Dolby didn't renew the patent on A-type and anybody was free to use it. So many overseas film came with A-type. But with all the international festivals and releases, now almost everything comes SR.

Only countries without trading agreements with the U.S. like Cuba and Iran still use either Mono or A-type.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 07-01-2007, 09:39 AM:

They make movies in Cuba?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-01-2007, 10:29 AM:

First the mis-information. While yes there was an overlap period of Dolby-A and Dolby-SR...it has NOTHING to do with not renewing its patent...where did you make that up? The patent had run its course and expired...patents are designed to expire after a period of time to allow the inventor to profit from their R&D yet allow stale technology to benefit all. Copyright is the absurd one that can seemingly be kept going forever. In my mind, they too should have similar time limits before becoming public domain...but that is a different subject.

Dolby did not rent SR cards...the most popular company that DID rent SR cards was called "Audio Rents." Orion, the most popular user of Dolby-SR prior to Dolby Digital, would also provide cards with the feature, at least in some markets and for some titles.

As to format 23, 4-track magnetic with Dolby NR...there are several examples...Yentel and the Fantasia with the "new digital mix" versions come immediately to mind. They did NOT have the dreaded 12KHz tone. I agree with a friend of mine that stated that they got it wrong...the tone should have been present when the track was otherwise silent. If you don't have the equipment to decode the track, you turn it off or make a simple low pass filter. If you do have the equipment you have silence with there is nothing on the track and have clean audio when it is on.

As for Dolby Mono...see "Woody Allen" the biggest user of Dolby Mono...even in the digital era.

I'm drawing a blank on format 03 (no surrounds) and it was a bigger deal in the days of the Cat 116 decoder than it would be in the days of the Cat 150D - Cat 150F. I'm pretty sure that the original 35mm versions of Apocolypse Now were format 03.

I am not aware of any 35mm 4-track films with Dolby-SR but there is no technical reason that they could not exist. 70mm never had the push to Dolby-SR like optical stereo did due to its increased inherent S/N. However, starting with the restoration of Lawrence of Arabia, virtually ALL 70mm films I ran after Lawrence were Dolby-SR encoded and "split surrounds" also started to become the defacto standard.

Steve

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-01-2007, 11:33 AM:

Format 03 was a real format but was not used much except for so-called "art" films and in early days where the surround output was deemed unsuitable, ie, unintentional effects. Apocalypse Now was an example of this as the 70mm version used surrounds to great effect.

Woody Allen does not release in "official" Dolby Mono, it just turns out that way. The matrix over the years got good enough to keep everything in the channel intended

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-01-2007, 11:39 AM:

Dolby stereo, no surrounds was actually quite common in the early days of dolby stereo.(Dolby people HATED surrounds; internal politics.)

Many times, we went into a theatre, playing a film with no surrounds and turned them on to find that all was very good. The print, however, was clearly marked "no surrounds." "Chariots of Fire" had technical problems in the mix that interfered with surrounds. The ending (long) benefitted greatly from surrounds; we turned them on after the last dialog. Louis

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 07-01-2007, 12:35 PM:

I'm pretty sure that the original 35mm versions of Apocolypse Now were format 03.

The original release of Apocolypse Now 35mm had surround during the helicopter attack on the village. There was one other scene that had surround, which escapes me at the moment. The rest of the film was front only.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-01-2007, 12:53 PM:

I think Sam just confirmed that the original release of Apocolypse Now was not supposed to be played with surrounds in 35mm Dolby Stereo. If you heard surrounds by turning on the decoder...that would just prove why they wanted the surrounds turned off...there was information that got into the surrounds that was not intended.

As for offical Dolby Mono films...A Clockwork Orange I think was on the Dolby mono list.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 07-01-2007, 01:43 PM:

quote: Stephen Furley
Dolby 'A' four track magnetic.

Can anybody give examples of films which were released in these formats?

THE LITTLE PRINCE (1974, Paramount)
NASHVILLE (1975, Paramount)
LED ZEPPELIN: THE SONG REMAINS THE SAME (1976, WB)
A STAR IS BORN (1976, WB)
MacARTHUR (1977, Universal)
ALL THAT JAZZ (1979, Fox)
HAIR (1979, UA)
FAME (1980, MGM)
THE IDOLMAKER (1980, UA)
TAPS (1981, Fox)
FANTASIA (1982 re-issue, Disney)
YENTL (1983, MGM/UA)
AGAINST ALL ODDS (1984, Columbia)
THE NATURAL (1984, TriStar)
BRING ON THE NIGHT (1985, Goldwyn)

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-01-2007, 03:00 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
As for offical Dolby Mono films...A Clockwork Orange I think was on the Dolby mono list.

That was recorded with Dolby, and is often claimed to be the first film to use the process (I don't know whether it actually was), but wasn't the track on the release prints standard Academy mono?

quote: Steve Guttag
I am not aware of any 35mm 4-track films with Dolby-SR but there is no technical reason that they could not exist.

No technical reason, but I think it would be umlikely, at least in Europe and the US, 4-track had been pretty much dead for some time when SR was introduced. I believe it lasted somewhat longer in India.

quote: Michael Coate
THE LITTLE PRINCE (1974, Paramount)
NASHVILLE (1975, Paramount)
LED ZEPPELIN: THE SONG REMAINS THE SAME (1976, WB)
A STAR IS BORN (1976, WB)
MacARTHUR (1977, Universal)
ALL THAT JAZZ (1979, Fox)
HAIR (1979, UA)
FAME (1980, MGM)
THE IDOLMAKER (1980, UA)
TAPS (1981, Fox)
FANTASIA (1982 re-issue, Disney)
YENTL (1983, MGM/UA)
AGAINST ALL ODDS (1984, Columbia)
THE NATURAL (1984, TriStar)
BRING ON THE NIGHT (1985, Goldwyn)

That's a longer list than I was expecting.

quote: Mitchell Dvoskin
The original release of Apocolypse Now 35mm had surround during the helicopter attack on the village. There was one other scene that had surround, which escapes me at the moment. The rest of the film was front only.

That's interesting, given that it was the 70mm version of this film that the Dolby SA5 unit was introduced for. Did the 70mm version also use the surrounds in only a few scenes?

Were there instructions to turn off the surrounds during the rest of the film in the 35mm matrix version, to prevent leakage from the L and R channels?

My interest in stereo sound is somewhat strange given that I have a hearing defect which causes me difficulty in correctly hearing direction in sound. This has got considerably worse in the last couple of years, so it is now probably too late for me to properly hear the track that I would be most interested in, even if it does get presented somewhere; the 4-track 35mm (and 34mm) version of 'Around the World in 80 Days', with the Perspecta surround track. I would also like to have heard Fantasound before the original recordings were put through so much processing and conversion over the years.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-01-2007, 03:48 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I agree with a friend of mine that stated that they got it wrong...the tone should have been present when the track was otherwise silent. If you don't have the equipment to decode the track, you turn it off or make a simple low pass filter. If you do have the equipment you have silence with there is nothing on the track and have clean audio when it is on.

Unfortunately there was lots of things wrong with that whole 12khz trigger tone concept -- totally assinine idea. Using it to turn OFF the surround channel wouldn't work either, in fact it would be worse.

First, the problem that the trigger tone was trying to solve was not only that the surround channel was noisy and needed to be silenced when not in use, but that the adjacent channels leaked audio content into it; even the best heads of those days were susceptible to cross-talk, and as we know, there is nothing worse than hearing dialogue coming out of the surround channel preceding the same dialogue from the front, the delay being made even worse by the mammoth size of the theatres in those days. And in 1953, digital delaying the surround channel al la Dolby's surround, which would have fixed it (somewhat), was much to expensive. In fact, if it weren't for the cost of digital delay coming more affordable because of large scale integrated circuits, Dolby's matrix surround wouldn't have been possible either.

As for the cross-talk -- well, it didn't only bleed from the front channels to the surround -- it worked the other way as well. And remember, that 12kHz was recorded at freakin ZERO DB! It easily bled into the adjacent front channels when it was present. At least if it is ON only when the surround needed to be activated, it usually was when music content at good levels was present in the screen channels, which somewhat masked the leaky 12kHz tone. Even with the best notch filters -- we use the top-of-the-line Altec 12k tunable notch filters -- you still hear that eeeeeeee tone. There wasn't a 4trk mag film that I ever saw, and I've seen alot, no matter in what theatre, where I didn't hear that blasted tone which allowed me to turn to my friends and say, "Watch, the surround channel is going to come on now." (obnoxious little unpopular smartass that I was).

If that tone were pumped into the surround track ALL THE TIME except for then the surround track was active, it would drive everyone craze and require notch filters in the front channels as well and it STILL wouldn't eliminate it totally. Can you imagine in quiet sections of the film, hearing that squeal coming from the screen channels? How they settled on that system is beyond me. They could have at least figure a way to record the trigger at lower levels.

Or they could have easily done it with a cheap threshold/ducking amp. They were readily available as audio gear and used routinely in radio stations at the time. The presense of an audio at a certain threshold level would allow the audio signal to pass; anything lower than that, and the ducker would drop the output completely. We did just that -- got rid of the stupid relay and put in a Fairchild ducking unit which dropped the audio to the surround amp to -40db when there was no audio present. What was really sweet about using this system was that you could adjust the decay time so that the surround channel didn't just go instantly dead like it would with the relay; you could set the ducker to fade at something like a 2 second delay when there was no audio present, making it not nearly as noticable as an abrupt disconnect. Likewise the attack could be set so it was not an instant ON, but a smooth fade up. We set that much faster, but still not an instant ON. The trigger tone on the prints always preceded audio by a good couple of seconds so even though we faded up at say .5 seconds, it never missed actual audio.

This system even works well for the prints that have no trigger tone, of which there are quite a few.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 07-01-2007, 04:49 PM:

Dolby chronology

Film Sound History 1970's

Motion Picture Sound 1930-1989

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-01-2007, 05:51 PM:

Re: the 12KHz tone: Using a strobe to check projector speed and a freq counter to check frequency; many were recorded off-frequency. We purchased a 10.5KHz low pass filter from White Instruments which was 10 db down at 11.5 and 22 db down at 12KHz. No hf, but no tone either. Louis

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-01-2007, 06:33 PM:

MagnaSync preamps didn't have a relay they actually muted the preamp circuit by I think if memory serves removing the bias on one of the tubes or maybe providing the bias from the tone itself
somewhere I think I might still have drawings of there unit
But what I remember was there was no audible 12K tone in the theatre that I had the unit installed in nor the one I had at home
The only thing I didn't like was the changeover circuit that switched the heads to a common group of preamps and also switch the HF and level pots

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-01-2007, 08:03 PM:

Frank, I think the crosstalk you experience had more to do with your sound systems and their installation more than any bleed through in the head or film. The spacing on the tracks and head construction all but made that sort of bleedthrough very improbable. I know I have not had it on the 4-track's I've run. I have heard of bleed through on the full-coat masters that made the prints where adjacent channels would contaminate another...including the surround channel bleeding into the right channel. I believe this was the case found when Lawrence of Arabia was restored...some of the sound elements came from various masters including the 4-track ones.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-01-2007, 10:20 PM:

Best little whore house in texas had a dolby a mag release in canada

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 07-02-2007, 02:13 AM:

Early in the SR introduction we had prints that were marked SR but sounded RS, so we had to switch back to A after a listening test.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-02-2007, 03:55 AM:

Steve, I may have just been improbably unlucky because I am not talking about my installation, although I am able to read a low level of that 12k tone right at the head, expecially on the left? channel (one closest to the surround channel track). And granted, I don't have those exquisite and exquisitely expensive Teccon heads, just lowly Ampex heads, but there is no doubt that the bleed was coming right from the head cluster itself, electrically induced across the windings perhaps.

And my understanding was that it is precisely because of the crosstalk between head windings that there was a need to silense the surround channel lest dialogue be heard in that channel.

But setting aside my system, as I said, I went to all the stereo films that played in the first run houses in NYC when I was a kid, and because I read all there was to read about the new CinemaScope system worked and had a projectionist friend who explain it all to the eager sponge that I was, I was very aware of that tone and could hear it, not only in one theatre, but in a variety of theatres, most of them the "flagship" theatres of the day which presumably had the best high end systems at that time. And believe me, I could hear that tone preceding each surround effect. Perhaps it was because I was still in my late teens and could hear allot better than I can now, but there was no doubt that the maddening tone was present. And back then the amps and especially the speakers were probably rolling off the top end pretty fiercely, still I could hear it. Sometimes you had to turn your head from side to side a bit because it was very directional, but it was there, even though some of my friends who were hi-frequency deaf from all the rock concerts said they didn't hear it.

Anyway, my point being, it was a dumb system from the get-go. Why didn't they use a low frequence trigger like Perspectasound -- that would have done the trick and not have been nearly as distinct a sound as 12khz should there be any bleed.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-02-2007, 06:09 AM:

It is the Right channel that is closest (the track configuration is Left, Center, Surround, Right.

I have worked with the Ampex heads, Norton, Teccon and have never had bleed through at the head itself.

As to hearing the tone...you should still have no trouble picking it off...it is way too low a frequency to not hear! You would have heard it not from the Right channel but the surrounds though....it preceeded the track actually playing to ensure the channel was on before any information was on it.

I agree that a LF tone would be much less annoying! Plus the speakers of the day were not good in the LF so a suitable high-pass filter would have protected them.

The whole 12KHz tone thing was a very bad solution to a problem

Steve

Posted by Phillip Grace (Member # 2262) on 07-02-2007, 06:46 AM:

I was working at the "Bercy" in Melbourne when "Best Little Whorehouse" was screened there. The print was 3 track magnetic, LCR, no surround track - not even the stripe was present. There was no optical track on the print, although the print was made to mag-optical dimensions. Perforations were fox-holes, and any splicing was done with cement by hand. The magnetic sounded wonderful, particularly compared with the mono optical print it replaced.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 07-02-2007, 07:04 AM:

Dolby Stereo optical without surround

Apocalypse Now (1979)
The Black Stallion (1979)
Maniac (1980)
Buddy Goes West (1982)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-02-2007, 08:14 AM:

I seem to recall playing a 35mm print of South Pacific in 3-track 35mm magnetic (also no surround stripe). It did have an optical track though. We played it at the K-B Cinema in Washington, DC.

The way I remember it was that I was very insistant that our 70mm theatres had either 10-track heads on site or heads with good 4-track sections to ensure when those theatres played festivals that they were ready for just about anything that would come in. When the call came in that South Pacific was 35mm magnetic on a "Musical Festival" I grinned and said..."no problem."

Mind you, just because the heads were on site didn't mean that they were installed. We didn't get 10-track Teccon heads but saved older 10-track heads that had good 4-track sections just for such occassions. By the mid 1980s, 35mm magnetic films were becoming VERY rare indeed. It is too bad, because with Dolby NR...it really gave 35mm much of the 70mm sound and a substantially less cost. I remember figuring out a system to use the 4-magnetic track plus the optical track for bass enhancement.

Steve

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-02-2007, 09:22 AM:

I used to send the sum of LCR to a Kintek aka DBX sub Bass box to give 4 track some omph
I never had interchannel crosstalk on striped prints and usually only on some of the lower grade full coat stuff
The reel of South Pacific I have has 4 tracks on it

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-02-2007, 10:49 AM:

I had forgotten about Best Little Whorehouse.

Universal back then had a real political problem with Dolby so avoided issuing in 04 when possible.

Most notable on the print I saw was the large blue vein visible on Dolly Parton's chest. She needed major nourishment to the area.

As to other kinds of bleeding, 35mm heads of the time had pretty serious crosstalk problems due to lack of inter-head shielding.

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 07-02-2007, 10:59 AM:

"Jesus Christ Superstar" was 3 track magoptical with large perfs.
Bob

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-02-2007, 01:11 PM:

Boy, you guys take me back. I did several premieres (Idolmaker) using 35mm 4 track mag with mono sounded on all 4 channels. Theatres had JJ's and AAII's so 4 track was no problem. This avoided interlock and was easy for the studios to do since I was given my choice of print stock, etc. The operators had never done picture/track and lived in fear of it. The rental equipment supplied from the west coast was BAD. I always considered 35mm mag to be poor man's 70mm. Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-02-2007, 02:53 PM:

Conversely, I always considered SVA to be a poor man's 35mm magnetic. When 35mm mag fell way into disuse, there was Dolby NR and Teccon heads as well as VKF sprockets...all of which negated most of the complaints of 35mm magnetic from an exhibitor standpoint (it still cost the distributor more to stripe and sound the print). But with Dolby-A and Teccon heads, you had a reasonably good sounding roubust format that was far superior to SVA.

Steve

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-02-2007, 03:04 PM:

Was a surround delay ever introduced for 4 track? A standard Dolby processor and MPU won't do it, since the delay's on the CAT 150, which is not in use with mag formats.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-02-2007, 05:43 PM:

We finally got around to Steve's preference for 35mm Mag. It was very good in its day.

As to delay on the mag. surround track; I believe it was a built in delay determined by a SMPTE spec.

A variable delay was a basic requirment of Dolby SVA to conceal the crosstalk. On 35 and 70 Mag it was an over-all set delay at the studio in recognition of the fact the suurounds were much closer to the audience than the main channels in the big houses back in the day when the average movie house was 700 seats and up.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-02-2007, 06:22 PM:

I believe DTS still encodes with the same delay as the old mag spec
somehow 1.5 frames sticks in the back of my mind
Also I never experienced any interchannel crosstalk with Norton/ Brush or Lipps heads nor with Teccon

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-03-2007, 01:17 AM:

The crosstalk was there in my experience in all but the Teccon. Even Ampex heads had crosstalk.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 07-03-2007, 03:15 AM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
Best little whore house in texas had a dolby a mag release in canada

Is your claim based on documentation or memory? I ask because my research suggests that the mag prints of "Best Little Whorehouse..." were non-Dolby.

quote: Stephen Furley
["A Clockwork Orange"] was recorded with Dolby, and is often claimed to be the first film to use the process (I don't know whether it actually was), but wasn't the track on the release prints standard Academy mono?

Yes, according to Dolby's company chronology.

quote: A Chronology of Dolby Laboratories, May 1965-May 1996

December 1971
A Clockwork Orange, first film to use Dolby noise reduction on all pre-mixes and masters, released with conventional optical soundtrack.

quote: A Chronology of Dolby Laboratories, May 1965-May 1996

May 1974
Callan, first film with optical soundtrack (mono) encoded with A-type noise reduction, shown at Cannes Film Festival

I'm not sure how many films got released with Dolby mono prints, but as of the 1977-78 timeframe, the company's records indicate there were several theatres equipped (only) for mono Dolby playback, suggesting that at least during the 1974-78 time period Dolby mono releases were common.

Canada: 80
United Kingdom: 150
United States: 4

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-03-2007, 05:51 AM:

Dolby mono installations were pretty common here. Two that I can think of were the main auditorium of the now demolished Odeon Watford; the two smaller auditoria built downstairs were non-Dolby as far as I can remember, and the Phoenix, East Finchley, which had Dolby mono installed long ago, and still had it when I first visited the place, but maybe something like ten years ago the equipment was removed when a very small Cinemeccanica amplifier was fitted, and the place reverted to non-Dolby mono. A few years later they upgraded to stereo with a Dolby CP65.

I'm pretty sure that the Odeon Watford wouldn't have been a one-off, so I sustect that a number of other three-screen Odeon conversions would have been similarly equipped, though I didn't personally see any.

Whether this equipment was installed to play Dolby mono films, or to play Dolby stereo films in mono, without the cost of converting the cinema to stereo I don't know, but I think the latter is quite likely. At this time quite a number of the old '30s cinemas which had been tripled were closing, as the Watford one did not long after I saw it, so maybe Odeon didn't want to spend more money on stereo coversions for cinemas which they might soon be closing.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-03-2007, 09:16 AM:

"Whorehouse" mag prints in the USA were non Dolby.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-03-2007, 10:42 AM:

Awhile ago I scanned and uploaded the 364/E2 brochure (Dolby Mono System)...who knows when it will make the que.

It had a print date in 1975.

Steve

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-03-2007, 06:05 PM:

There were a lot of the 364/E2 in North America. Famous Players had a lot of them and I later bought a lot of them back while at Dolby as the 364 was very popular for a variety of uses and out of production for years.

Goerge Schower (sp) of the NY Dolby office used to travel all over interfacing them with the mono systems of the time. He had a kit to break into the Cinemeccanica amps as well as all others.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-04-2007, 04:28 AM:

They were good units; never seemed to cause any problems. Why did they not combine both parts in one unit? Was the equaliser optional? I never saw one installed without the other.

Since the 364 contained a standard Cat.22, then I assume that it could also be used for SR, by swapping out the Cat.22 for a Cat.280T. If that is the case I wouldn't mind buying a set myself for home use if I could find one available.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 07-04-2007, 05:01 AM:

quote: Stephen Furley
When Dolby SR was introduced did it immediately replace Dolby 'A' on film prints, or was there a considerable period of overlap when both systems were in use?

Coincidentally, the 35mm Dolby Stereo SR format was officially introduced twenty years ago this week with the release of "Innerspace." "RoboCop" followed a week later.

The first wave of SR installs included:

For Innerspace…
Chicago, IL: Biograph

And for RoboCop…
Calumet City, IL: River Oaks
Dearborn, MI: Movies at Fairlane
Hillside, IL: Hillside Square
Los Angeles, CA: Chinese
Los Angeles, CA: Village
New York, NY: 34th Street Showplace
New York, NY: National
New York, NY: Orpheum
San Francisco, CA: Galaxy
Universal City, CA: Universal City 18
Washington, DC: Embassy Circle

What kind of impact did SR make? Well, consider the following breakdown of Dolby A and SR releases in the United States for the five-year period from the official introduction of SR (July 1987) to the official introduction of Dolby Digital (June 1992).

Year 1 (07/87-06/88):
Dolby A: 205
Dolby SR: 14*

Year 2 (07/88-06/89):
A: 210
SR: 27

Year 3 (07/89-06/90):
A: 208
SR: 28

Year 4 (07/90-06/91):
A: 218
SR: 47

Year 5 (07/91-06/92):
A: 229
SR: 42

[The SR figures are factored into the A figures due to multiple inventory (i.e. the SR titles were simultaneously released in Dolby A). The A figures also include Ultra Stereo releases. The number of SR releases rose considerably after the introduction of Dolby Digital.]

*The first-year SR releases were:
INNERSPACE
ROBOCOP
FATAL BEAUTY
WALL STREET
THROW MOMMA FROM THE TRAIN
THE UNBEARABLE LIGHTNESS OF BEING
ACTION JACKSON
COLORS
POWAQQATSI
WILLOW
RAMBO III
THE PRESIDIO
BULL DURHAM
RED HEAT

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-04-2007, 08:09 AM:

Dolby seemed to be into reusing existing technology and frames once upon a time.

The 364 was part of the 360 series. What made the 364 cinema was the mag/optical buttons, the "clean up" button too. I want to say the 361 looked nearly itentical but saw its use on dubbers and other magnetic recorders.

You can probably find more 361s out there than 364s.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-04-2007, 08:34 AM:

The 364 was an option with the CP100 for NR on the mag surround channel.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-04-2007, 02:49 PM:

Wasn't Xanadu also format 03?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-04-2007, 03:00 PM:

Don't know, Tim. We didn't pay a lot of attention to "no surrounds" in those days. If it sounded good to us, it HAD surrounds. Louis

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2007, 03:35 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Awhile ago I scanned and uploaded the 364/E2 brochure (Dolby Mono System)...who knows when it will make the que.

Oh ok Steve, I pushed it forward...just for you! [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-04-2007, 03:48 PM:

Put on your sunglasses then...the front cover is ORANGE.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 07-04-2007, 06:29 PM:

quote: Jeffry L. Johnson
Dolby Stereo optical without surround

A few more:

DON GIOVANNI (1979)
MONTY PYTHON'S LIFE OF BRIAN (1979)
QUADROPHENIA (1979)

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-05-2007, 06:46 AM:

As long as UltraStereo was mentioned, let me ask, what exactly is the difference between a film recorded in that format and the Dolby format(s). Is it akin to Dolby A, SR....what? If you get such a print, what format do you choose?

Posted by Robert Throop (Member # 61) on 07-05-2007, 07:09 AM:

I thought "U-2 Rattle and Hum" was an early SR film.
Bob

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-05-2007, 08:18 AM:

I think that was covered either above or on another thread but Ultra*Stereo and DTS Stereo are similar to Dolby-A...so similar that one uses the same format on the sound processor. They are not identical since the circuits used are not identical. DTS Stereo also uses more of the optical track, as I recall...they cheat the full dimensions of the optical track specs.

U2 Rattle and Hum was definately released in Dolby SR....The K-B Cinema installed and SRA-5 for that film.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-05-2007, 08:46 AM:

U-2 was indeed the first SR single inventory release. I ran demo reels of it for people from Paramount in Type A purposely for them to see "how compatable" the SR track was played back in Type A. This testing was done at Willis Johnson's then twin screen Elk Grove Cinema. There was a 0004-SPH B-chain there in the larger screen. I know this testing was done in other parts of the country... basically in every city Paramount had a booking office at that time. Did anyone else here run the test reels? After that film I believe all releases were single inventory SR

Mark

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 07-05-2007, 09:01 AM:

U2 Rattle and Hum was the first movie I recall being specifically advertised as playing in Dolby SR in Orange County CA. It was at the then-new Edwards Charter Centre 5 in Huntington Beach, in a THX house. They played it as loud as they reasonably could and my recollection is it sounded *very* good. [beer]

(As is often the case my comment has little to do with the thread at hand. [Wink]

)

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 07-05-2007, 03:40 PM:

I agree with Dave that the U2 film sounded very good in SR. See below.

quote: Robert Throop
I thought "U-2 Rattle and Hum" was an early SR film.

"U2: Rattle And Hum" was released in the U.S. in November 1988 and was among the 27 SR releases identified in the "Year 2" figures of my Page 3 post.

What did you guys think of the SR format circa late-1980s? Did you think it sounded better than "A"? As good or better than 70mm six-track magnetic?

Many of the SR presentations I heard sounded no different than what I would expect from a good "A" presentation. Three exceptions: "U2: Rattle And Hum" (which I saw at the Chinese in Hollywood), "RoboCop" (also at Chinese), and "Robin Hood: Prince Of Thieves" (Village, Westwood). Those three stood out at the time as sounding significantly superior to "A" presentations and nearly as good or as good as a 70mm six-track magnetic presentation.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-05-2007, 04:09 PM:

Nothing yet, in my mind or ears, has sounded as good as 70mm 6-track, especially SR but even A was pretty darn impressive.

SR optical sounded its best with geniune SR and with an IR reader, in the initial tests I had. The typical forward scan reader didn't have enough HF (and the preamps were also low-passed) so the upper octave was notably missing.

Steve