Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Norelco/Philips FP-20 operation problem

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Posted by Peter Conheim (Member # 4196) on 07-23-2007, 10:40 AM:

Hello, all:

I'm trying to figure out how to correctly operate a modified Norelco/Philips FP-20 machine. This unit was reconfigured by Magna-Tech into their so-called "Rock and Roll" model, which allows instantaneous braking (as opposed to normal roll-stops) and reverse function. It was previously used in a studio to watch footage with mag interlock.

I just obtained this machine and it works beautifully in standard forward motion. Quiet and steady. But it has a VERY perplexing electric douser; it seems to have a mind of its own, in that when you power up the machine (NOT rolling it, just powering it up), the douser pops open. To close the douser, it seems you have to manually roll the inching knob BACKWARDS for a second. Then it drops down.

Magna-Tech has added a control panel, pictured here. I swore when I first turned on the machine the button labeled "LAMP FWD AND REVERSE" opened the douser after a timed interval. But now that button does nothing at all.

Furthermore, when you put the thing into reverse, the upper loop is immediately lost and it tears the shit out of the film.

The right photo shows the main controls, which are located on the back of the machine (i.e. in front of the lamphouse). To make things stranger, the machine only runs in the "INT" mode, whereas I would think that meant "interlocked" and thus the machine should run in the "LOCAL" mode. It doesn't. And there's a little recessed green button above the controls, too, which doesn't seem to do anything in the current configuration.

Anyone have any clues? Obviously a manual from Magna-Tech would be best of all. The reverse thing is irrelevant, but the douser action is a head-scratcher.

PC

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 07-23-2007, 10:58 AM:

Every one of these I've heard described or seen is a little different so that makes this a little more difficult. [Smile]

That said, the two we have use a time delay relay connected to the motor power through a resistor voltage divider (it's a 120V relay and the motor is 120/208V 3ph) and the lamp fwd/rev switch to open the dowser. If you're using a VFD for the motor it might confound the dowser. When I converted ours to VFD I used the Run output on the VFD to trigger the time delay relay for the dowser. We've also had some problems with those switches, so that might be part of your problem.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 07-23-2007, 11:25 AM:

Most of these have a drag clutch that operates a lever mechanism which lifts the skate via small pins in the trap to allow reverse operation, you can't run reverse with the skate closed. Some use a solenoid for this, some have a claw thingy that grabs the top of the skate from in front.
Whatever mechanism yours uses, this skate lifter is essential to reverse operation. The picture is never steady in reverse of course, although you can see what the image is.
Most will only run sound properly in forward. The true reverse FP20 has an extra sprocket beside the soundhead, I've heard that MTE used some of these but every one I've run across is a (heavily) modified normal (ie non-reversing) FP20.
Usually "Interlock" engaged a selsyn system, the motors are usually double with a 3 phase motor and a selsyn in one case.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-23-2007, 11:47 AM:

If you're just using this to run film at nome I would reccomend removing all the Magna-TEch crap and turning it back into a standard FP-20. Its one of the best machines ever made... just messed up by Magna-TEch for other uses.... which btw were pretty clumsy to operate!

Mark

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-23-2007, 03:20 PM:

The pair of Magna-Tech PR-135's (Ser#193 & 194) that I have running work fine forward and backwards. On my machines the "Lamp Forward and Reverse button". Is called "Picture Forward/Picture Reverse". When that button is pushed you will get picture in the forward mode and picture in the reverse mode. But if you push it again it will only show picture in the forward mode. But in the reverse mode the dowser stays closed.

Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 07-24-2007, 11:07 AM:

For a brief time when I worked for UA I got to experience FP-20s. Since I was somewhat new to projection in general, they were the strangest things I ever saw (compared to a Simplex).

Poor things had been horribly neglected and the Asst. Manager was doing her best to bring them back to life. I wish I had more time to experience their quirks. I think the only theatre I could go to in the SF Bay Area would be the Shattuck Cinemas in Berkeley, I think they run a few.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-24-2007, 11:25 AM:

UA installed a pair of them in the [bs]

twin next to the Egyptian Theatre in Hollywood when it opened.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 07-24-2007, 01:16 PM:

Removing all the MTE stuff is a fine plan, except...
Unless you have or can make supply and takeup shaft assemblies you're stuck with the torque motor and brake system. These require a bit of electrical know-how to get working properly. The brake power supply board is the square green board with a diode, large resistor, and a few capacitors that's attached to the control chassis; as I recall they are 90VDC brakes. You don't want to use a brake for feed reel drag, it won't last long. You power the feed torque motor in reverse. MTE puts in a switch for small/large reels, if you run 2K reels just use 120VAC on the torque motors and forget about a reduced torque setting. You pretty much need a failsafe wired to switch from torque to brake when film runs out or the reels spin up to a scary speed, and it shreds the tail of your film reel.

Posted by Peter Conheim (Member # 4196) on 07-24-2007, 01:22 PM:

Thanks heaps for the replies thus far. I've managed to divine all the operational controls on this thing with the exception of the dowser issue. I suspect the "FWD REV LAMP ON" switch has failed; still wondering why the dowser only closes when you turn the inching knob backwards manually. That's the puzzler.

No, I won't be hacking into this machine to remove the Magna-Tech mods. For one thing, the fast wind function will be quite useful once I install a roller or two on the front of the column.

PC

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-24-2007, 03:33 PM:

quote: Peter Conheim
the fast wind function will be quite useful once I install a roller or two on the front of the column.

I have two roller installed for that function on each machine. That function works great. [thumbsup]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-24-2007, 06:58 PM:

I just never cared for the way they handled film in rock and roll mode... The later MAgna Tech electronic machines were alot better in that respect.

Mark

Posted by Mike Croaro (Member # 3123) on 07-24-2007, 11:05 PM:

Scott Neff wrote:

"I think the only theatre I could go to in the SF Bay Area would be the Shattuck Cinemas in Berkeley, I think they run a few."

Hi Scott:

Doesn't the Elmwood have the Norelco's from the former UA Millbrae Theatre, Millbrae, CA? They were moved over to the Elmwood when Howard Taromino (spelling?) was running it.

A technician (circa 1996) told me that the UA Berkleey had a few.

I myself used one at the Fine Arts Theatre in Berkeley during a 7-10 month stretch when it ran Bollywood films. It had been removed from the Villiage Theatre(Enea Family) in Monterey, CA. when it closed in 1995.

Mike

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 07-25-2007, 01:07 AM:

the shattuck does have norelcos on screens 1-8. don't know which model but i'll try to remember to check next time we have a print move over.

i'll see about checking out the elmwood as well.

mike, you worked the fine arts before keith, emily, and josephine took over?

update: indeed, the shattuck has fp-20's.

[ 08-03-2007, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: Carl Martin ]

Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 07-25-2007, 04:31 PM:

My old GM ran the Millbrae, and it makes sense that Howard would have moved them over to the Elmwood. I remember at the UA Empire, one of our Norelco manuals was a copy of the manual from the Millbrae.

I'd love to have seen pictures of Millbrae. I drove past it once before it was demolished during the infancy of my theatre fascination. It looked like an awesome place (before the chop-job).

Posted by Peter Conheim (Member # 4196) on 07-25-2007, 05:03 PM:

Again, thanks for all the input - I must say, this forum is rather amazing. Lots of knowledgeable folks...

Here remains the one real bugaboo left: there seems to be no difference between the "WIND" position on the front panel switch and the center (unlabeled) position, except that the top hub doesn't spin in center position. And no matter how I set the machine, the take up torque motor spins the reel incredibly fast in forward mode; the tension is extreme while you are running film as normal. In fact, if there is any slack ahead of the take up reel when you click into "take up", this sucker will snap acetate film faster than you can say, "argh".

Do any of you know if this machine, as modified, ever spun the take up spindle with normal torque, or only with the super-fast mode I seem to be stuck in?

PC

[ 07-25-2007, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Peter Conheim ]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-25-2007, 07:06 PM:

What position is the 2000 foot / 1000 foot switch in? Another thing to watch out for is the lower feed sprocket. If that lower spindle takes off really fast it can brake a tooth off the gear inside that drives that lower sprocket on the chain drive.

Posted by Mike Croaro (Member # 3123) on 07-25-2007, 08:11 PM:

Carl Martin wrote:

"mike, you worked the fine arts before keith, emily, and josephine took over?"

Hi Carl:

I worked at the Fine arts from about August 1995 until about March 1996. This is during the theatres stint as a Bollywood Cinema. The theatre was equiped with the Norelco FP-20S, "Tinny Table" film trasport (12,000 reels), and an old Green mono sound system. The screen was fitted with Rock N Roll Speakers from Guitar Center! The theatre closed about 4-5 months after I left as the Bolloywood operation moved into the Bal Theatre in San Leandro. Sometime after that the Fine Arts re-opened as a rep house.

Nice to see you posting again.

Mike

Posted by Peter Conheim (Member # 4196) on 07-26-2007, 07:45 PM:

Bill... I've been running the beast in 2000' mode. Still have found no way at all to lower the speed of the takeup. I can't imagine having that much torque doing anything good to the films it's projecting! Still need to sort that out.

PC

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-26-2007, 08:17 PM:

My pair run change-overs daily. I have it set at 2000 foot also and have no problems. In the 1000 foot setting it's much littler on the take-up.

Posted by Peter Conheim (Member # 4196) on 07-26-2007, 09:12 PM:

Bill - a follow up question, then: when you run your changeovers as normal, does the take-up spindle spin fast when the reel runs out? I.e. in the "fast wind" mode? Because mine does nothing BUT spin that fast.

Thanks...

PC

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-26-2007, 09:37 PM:

Yes, once the reel finishes it does spin fast. (in the 2000 foot mode) So in the 1000 foot mode, it's the same as the 2000 foot mode?

Posted by Peter Conheim (Member # 4196) on 07-27-2007, 03:18 AM:

Perhaps slightly slower in the 1000' mode, but still taking off like an airplane. Tail shredder!

If you are confident that the torque motor doesn't pull so hard in normal operation that it could stress perfs on the lower sprocket, it wouldn't be such a worry.

PC

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 07-30-2007, 11:56 AM:

Yes, the takeup will spin very fast with no film threaded. The issue is not how fast it spins with no film, but how much torque it has. In 1000' foot mode, it should have less torque than in 2000' foot mode. Both modes will spin at roughly the same speed at the end of a reel.

After threading the projector, you turn the brake off so that the electric takeup is holding the film tightly. Upon starting, there should be enough torque so that the film is always tight around the takeup and does not loosen and snap.

Put a takeup reel on the projector and turn off the break, thereby turning on the takeup motor while holding the reel. You can feel how much takeup tension each mode puts on the reel while holding it from turning.

For those not familiar with this projector, both the feed back tension and the takeup tension is generated by electric motors with no slip clutch, much like an old reel to reel tape deck.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 07-30-2007, 03:21 PM:

I'm pretty sure i know what your getting at Mitchell. At the end of every reel on my Teac A-3340S it would take a moment for the kill switch to realize there was no tape left, but it was enough to the shed oxide off the last 30 centimeters of every reel on the tape head cover. If you tried to touch the reel you would probably lose fingers since they were aluminum NAB reels. There is just so much torque behind that machine, it always looks like its putting too much stress on the heads.