Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: another nitrate question

This is topic another nitrate question in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Peter Conheim (Member # 4196) on 07-23-2007, 12:38 PM:

Forgive me if this was actually covered on Philip Borgnes' posting; I've only just read through the topic for the first time and didn't see specific discussion of this.

I happen to have a nitrate print of a 1932 melodrama called FALSE FACES, bought on eBay and shipped to me via UPS Ground (!!!!!). I've not projected this - and I won't - but I've hand-inspected all 9 reels. Of the 9, 4 seem nearly perfect, but 5 have decomposition at the tails and the last 20-30 feet are sticky and ruined.

My questions are: is there any truth to the idea that it can SELF ignite? And are the decomposing reels potentially causing damage to the non-decomposing reels via their proximity?

The film originally came in a large hexagonal metal cylinder on 1000' reels; I've since put the non-decomposing reels on cores and as a result they won't fit in the can, so they're in a box. The lid on the can is extremely tight and I'd hate for gas/pressure/anything to build up in there so I'm loathe to store any of it in that can. Thoughts or advice?

PC

P.S. I've been in contact with AMPAS and at some point I'm going to get it to them, but for cost reasons I'm hoping to drive it there myself when I have other business in that area.

Posted by Richard P. May (Member # 3598) on 07-23-2007, 01:33 PM:

Peter,
Yes to both of your questions. Self-igniting is not likely, but there have been some historical disasters where this has happened. Keep the film in a cool place. It can be very dangerous above 100 degrees.
The decomposing film can contaminate the good stuff. It should be separated from that which is ok.
If you are turning this over to AMPAS in the near future, just be sure to bring that to their attention so they can give it priority.

RPM

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-23-2007, 01:49 PM:

quote: Peter Conheim
I happen to have a nitrate print of a 1932 melodrama called FALSE FACES, bought on eBay and shipped to me via UPS Ground (!!!!!). I've not projected this - and I won't - but I've hand-inspected all 9 reels. Of the 9, 4 seem nearly perfect, but 5 have decomposition at the tails and the last 20-30 feet are sticky and ruined.

I've seen something very similar to this at theNational Film and Television Archive. In that case the damage was caused by some early plastic cores on which the film had been wound; I don't know what type of plastic they were made of, but I think they were marked Agfa. The effect was very strange, the centre hole was no longer round, but had become a polygon, with curved sides, and the strengthening ribs wer all very distorted. Wooden cores were ok, as were modern polystyrene ones, it was just this type that caused the problem.

quote: Peter Conheim
My questions are: is there any truth to the idea that it can SELF ignite? And are the decomposing reels potentially causing damage to the non-decomposing reels via their proximity?

Opinions vary on this one. There was a case some years ago of a fire involving cans of film which had been left in the sun in, I think, a car park. I don't remember the exact details, but is was thought that the high temperatures reached in the cans over a period of time may have led to decomposition, and eventually, spontanious ignition. Several years ago there was a fire at Henerrson's Laboratories in London. There was speculation that the fire could have been started by spontanious ignition of the nitrate film, but I don't think that was ever proven.

Whether of not it can just burst into flames is not really the point. Where are you storing this; do you have it at home? The film certainly will ignite if you apply a flame to it; if you happen to have a perfectly ordinary, otherwise minor, house fire it would be much worse if there happened to be nine reels of nitrate film sitting in the middle of it. What happens if it goes up while you're asleep? The fumes from burning nitrate are pretty nasty; there would be a good chance that you would be overcome by them. Nitrate becomes more unstable as it starts to decompose; and you have several reels which are doing just that. Are your insurane company aware that you are storing nitrate film? Get it to somewhere that has the facilities to store it safely, to evaluate it's condition, and to decide what needs to be done with it.

quote: Peter Conheim
The film originally came in a large hexagonal metal cylinder on 1000' reels; I've since put the non-decomposing reels on cores and as a result they won't fit in the can, so they're in a box. The lid on the can is extremely tight and I'd hate for gas/pressure/anything to build up in there so I'm loathe to store any of it in that can. Thoughts or advice?

Film does give of gases, and needs to be able to 'breathe'; it shouldn't be stored in airtight containers. Yes, fumes given off by decomposing film can accelerate the decay or other reels.

Posted by Hugh McCullough (Member # 1542) on 07-23-2007, 05:32 PM:

If the film is nitrate then you must get rid of it as quickly as possible, but only through authorised channels.

If you are going to use your car to transport the film to AMPAS make sure that your insurance covers the carrying of dangerous substances.

I have been in a nitrate projection box fire, and I can tell you it is something that you do not want to have happen at home, or in your car.

Try this interesting link on the Kodak site Link

Also

Photograph of Nitrate Film decomposing
Link

[ 07-23-2007, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2007, 08:43 PM:

Carrying cellulose nitrate in a private vehicle on a public road will likely violate hazardous materials transportation regulations. Ship only with a qualified hazardous materials carrier:

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents/72/0900688a80102572/H-182.pdf

quote:
This publication will
help you understand
the requirements
to safely handle,
store, transport,
and destroy
cellulose nitrate-based
films.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-24-2007, 09:14 PM:

Well, then I won't mention the time I was traveling with a friend through Nevada on a 105+ degree day with a borrowed pickup truck whose capped back end was full of Nitrate... ok, with a few reels of Jerry Lewis safety tossed in for good measure... [Eek!]

. Of course this trip wasn't without incident or should I say without being pulled over... [uhoh]

just south of Alamo, NV for speeding 87 in a 65 zone... well... there didn't used to be a speed limit in Nevada back around 1961 [Roll Eyes]

. And there was a handgun in the drivers side door pocket.... Yea, a borrowed truck and to boot the insurance was not paid up... and a loaded gun on board that neither of us had a clue about. My friend got a big fat $800.00 ticket... which he didn't end up having to pay and the cop just asked him to PLEEZE slow down [thumbsup]

... All he had to do was mail in proof that the insurance was good or pay the $800.00. I think he mailed in the proof. Luckily the cop came to the passenger side door (my side) and never knew there was a gun nor did he inspect the explosives we were carrying in the back of the truck. The gun also belonged to his buddy! I don't remember what we told him was in the back... but the word Nitrate did not come up.... Phew! We both took a big piss when we got to the gas station in Alamo [Smile]

.

Mark

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-24-2007, 09:25 PM:

And in today's world of terrorism and "Homeland Security", I'd hate to be in a position to explain why I was transporting that much explosive material without proper documenation or certification. Even ammonium nitrate fertilizers are highly regulated now.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-24-2007, 09:32 PM:

I agree John... Frankly we were both lucky. But it is a funny story. If he hadn't gotten pulled over and the gun wasn't there it woulda been just another day.

There is actually a legal (target practice) explosive that can be mail ordered. Some folks don't always use if for target practice though and its hard to believe that it IS legal. You can even purchase it at some gun shops. Its very stable because its a binary explosive... you basically need a speeding bullett to set it off, a blasting cap might work... I've seen it set off by high powered rifle and its hard to believe its legal stuff! 15 lbs of it can destroy a car...

Tannerite Exploding Targets

You-Tube Tannerite Videos

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-24-2007, 10:58 PM:

Actually, I would not think that the typical police officer would be thinking explosives if s/he found movie film the back of a pick up truck. If it looked modern...it would more likely thought of as theft or nothing at all. While nitrate may be something people in our industry may be aquanted with (and still mostly misunderstood)...it isn't reaonable to think that the local law-enforcement would be experts on it. They know what film is...and it has never been thought of as a dangerous thing...heck they even used it in cameras when they were younger (or only a few years ago).

[ 07-25-2007, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by Jim Bedford (Member # 4) on 07-25-2007, 05:42 PM:

Can't remember who told me that if you handle nitrate film soon before you pack for a trip and/or without washing your hands well, the nitrate residue that you might transfer to your bags will certainly be picked up by the TSA guys who wipe bag handles and zippers looking for explosives within. Another reason to wash your hands well....

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-25-2007, 06:05 PM:

quote: Richard May
Self-igniting is not likely, but there have been some historical disasters where this has happened.

Sorry to be anal, but AFAIK there have been some historical disasters where this is very strongly suspected to have happened, but no-one has been able to conclusively prove it - only cite some pretty convincing circumstantial evidence.

Reference - James Cummings et al., 'Spontaneous Ignition of Decomposing Cellulose Nitrate Film', JSMPTE vol. 54 (March 1950), p.271-4. Although this study was done 57 years ago and its methodology wasn't exactly comprehensive, I don't know of any work since which has contradicted or added much to it since.

The most convincing circumstantial evidence I've heard is that of the Hendersons laboratory fire in south London in 1992. The fire was proven to have started in a wood and breeze block outhouse in which there was quite simply no source of ignition: there was no mains electricity supply to the building, nothing that could conduct static electricity, no battery-powered appliances in it ... basically nothing that could have ignited the reels inside. But people have tried to make nitrate spontaneously ignite under laboratory conditions and in similar ambient temperatures to those of the suspect incidents before and since, and unless I've missed some recent research, no-one has ever been able to do it.