Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: kinoton pk-60 vertical unsteadiness

This is topic kinoton pk-60 vertical unsteadiness in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008845

Posted by Samuel Andrew Wetzel (Member # 3759) on 07-26-2007, 12:30 AM:

the theatre i work at has one kinoton pk-60 projector, strong highlight II lamphouse and strong ap3 platter system. there is noticable vertical unsteadiness on both flat and scope. this unsteadiness is much more noticable on flat films, due to the smaller image size of the flat format (as far as i can tell). when i run test film...such as RP-40 the image is stable, however, when an actual movie is shown the shaking is noticable even to our customers. adjusting the gate tension seems to have little, if any effect on reducing the shaking. since the test film is rock solid on screen i would imagine any unsteadiness would be due to variations in the film stock...basically i'm just checking to see if anyone has any other ideas on possible causes to the unsteadiness...or if there's something in particular i should do or check.

[ 07-28-2007, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: Samuel Andrew Wetzel ]

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-26-2007, 01:08 AM:

Is this on all prints played thru this machine or has it surfaced with the current print?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-26-2007, 03:00 AM:

Are you using any form of print lubrication, or are you running the films dry?

Also, make a loop out of a Buena Vista, Universal or Warner Bros trailer green band. (Don't use other film studio's trailers because they will be printed bouncy.) Thread it up and hit the screen with it. It is steady, at least very close to the PA35? If it is steady, you have a heat problem. (After a couple of minutes the projector is heating up and damaging the intermittent coupler.)

Posted by Samuel Andrew Wetzel (Member # 3759) on 07-27-2007, 03:22 AM:

jeremy, the vertical unsteadiness is consistant among both formats...it's most noticable with the flat format however.

brad, when the pk-60d was installed it was installed without the bracket to mount a film-cleaner. i took a bracket from a different house to run film-guard on the prints. i've seen it work miracles in our houses, so hopefully this one won't be any different! i'll be in the booth tomorrow night so i'll run it lubricated (as well as check your other suggestions). i'll let you know how it turns out...i hadn't even thought about the possibility of the heating issue. we're running a 6k lamp with water cooling of course, and our cooler doesn't always seem like it's working at optimal efficiency.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-27-2007, 04:31 AM:

Press against the skate when the image is jumping. Does the film get steadier? You may simply need to increase the skate tension.

Also note that if the skate isn't in the correct position vertically (check the manual for the adjustment procedure), you will have vertical unsteadiness.

Finally, to burn a Strong 6K lamp behind a PK60, not only do you have to have a properly running water circulator, but you also HAVE to have a heat filter in between the gate and lamp too.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-27-2007, 08:26 AM:

Oh my...6K. Yes a heat filter is REQUIRED from any lamphouse. You will emboss the film.

Check the condition of the skate and runner strips...particularly around the aperture. The runner strips are probably cooked (turned brittle). They can be reversed (trade left for right and vice-versa) to get a second life...they are mirror images just like on the old Century C straight gates.

In addition to what Brad suggested also try a new skate and it must be properly adjusted.

Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-27-2007, 12:53 PM:

Oh yeah, I forgot about the plastic runners. Buy a set of the steel runners. They will never, ever need replacing again and from everything I've seen will cut down the shedding over what you see on the plastic runners.

Just wait until the circulator pump goes south one day and your aperture gets melted to the plastic runners. Then you will be wishing you had installed the metal ones! [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-27-2007, 02:57 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
They will never, ever need replacing again

Actually I had an FP-20 that had come with the steel runners. They last longer but I had to eventually replace them too. Once they become grooved the film seems to want to wander laterally. Granted they do last alot longer though... mine though 4 skates. 1 new skate for each new side of the runners. I went back to the plastic ones because they are lower friction but I was only running 1600 watts behind it.

Also, when you frame the projector and look at the intermittent sprocket do you see it moving laterally at all. I've also replaced the bronze couplings in a number of the FP series machines which is basically the same design as yours. Like a Ballantyne the Kinoton will also jump when the coupler is worn.
Mark

Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 07-28-2007, 01:08 PM:

AH the pk 60. You most likely have a worn out framing bushing, it is typical for the picture to look steady when the machine is running cold, but give it about 15 min. or so and the bounce will start or you could just run the rp 40 as soon as the show drops. That is definitely the symptom of a worn bushing. The film trap in the pk 60 is directly coupled to the intermittent sprocket shaft, so heat is easily transferred to the framing bushing. In my opinin you MUST have a heat filter installed in the lamphouse, do not rely on water cooling alone. We have a local 8 screen theatre that is running all pk 60 machines. 2 of the 8 machines are running 3k lamps while the rest 2k all on slc consoles. I have noticed that the 3k machines were going through framing bushings quicker, until recently we installed the heat filters.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-28-2007, 06:19 PM:

I wonder if they changed the material the couplings are made of?? Generally even with the older machines you don't have this sort of problem unless it has has many tens of thousands of hours of use.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-28-2007, 06:33 PM:

I have asked MiT to make replacement couplers a few times for the PK60 out of a more durable material that can withstand heat better. Hopefully they are working on it, because that is definitely a weak link in Kinoton's otherwise quite well designed machine.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-28-2007, 09:46 PM:

Brad,

What are they makin them out of these days? The ones I;ve replaced... in FP-20's and Dp-75's were always bronze.

Mark

Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 07-29-2007, 01:33 AM:

Mark, they are definitely not made out of bronze any more, they seem to be using about the same plastic material found in the Pro-35 coupler, it's too bad because I like the machine otherwise. I remember the first time I removed one of these and thinking, what happend to using metal?

Posted by Tim Asten (Member # 4051) on 07-29-2007, 06:06 AM:

About a third of our 15 FP40 mechs are affected by worn racking bushings. The unsteady pictures are sometimes accompanied by noisy running. However we've found that if you tweak the racking handle slightly one way or the other to take up the slack in the bushing this sometimes gives a temporary cure with smoother running. If you tweak the handle with no film in the gate you can actually see the intermittent sprocket moving slightly sideways hence I assume the rough running. All this though is no substitute for new bushings. On a side note though much is made about Kinotons intermittents giving more stable running through direct drive but if you have to have a bushing that allows adjustment for racking, it ceases to be direct drive anymore. Yes? No? what does everybody think.?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-29-2007, 08:44 AM:

quote: Randy Bowden
Mark, they are definitely not made out of bronze any more, they seem to be using about the same plastic material found in the Pro-35 coupler, it's too bad because I like the machine otherwise. I remember the first time I removed one of these and thinking, what happend to using metal?

Thats sad really! A great machine and switching to a just a ten cent part to bring it down! A film pileup is all it would take to put a good blow on a plastic coupler and damage it. That sheds more light on what the guys at Cinemark said to me.

Personally, If I were installing many of these machines I would be sending a new sample to LaVezzi for a quote made from bronze like the old ones were!! The old couplers lasted many decades typically! Thay have never been unreasonable for any of the parts we've had them make and there is no better quality available. You also don't have to order huge quantities... 50, 75, 100 or more and the price goes down stbstantially at just 100 pieces. The lead time is just a bit long though, typically 10 weeks minimum... they are always very busy. Wolk can also quote a part like this. Their quality is not that of LaVezzi but does seem to be getting better all the time.

Mark

Posted by Benjamin John Doman (Member # 4365) on 07-29-2007, 11:48 AM:

Hi All,
FYI A lot of the Kinoton parts have been coming out made of different materials in the last few years. Kinoton have been gradually changing over from Phillips parts to making their own, this being completed in the last couple of years. They now make everything 'in house', apart from spray painting which they can't do anymore due to EU regs. The fibre gears are the latest to change, being made of a white plastic type material now. Watch out if retro fitting the old brown shutter gear. The white gears expand 5x more & require 10mm backlash! [Wink]

Ben

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-29-2007, 12:54 PM:

The story I hear on the delrin gears replacing fibre gears was due to health hazards of the fibre hobbing process (dust) as well as the life-spand of the hobbers was significantly shorter than with the delrin type.

Personally, I'm skeptical of the delrin gears too. There are very few gears in a Kinoton (sprocket drive that fit a chain, and the shutter drive). I'm surprised that this is such an issue for them. This is a case where LaVezzi or Wolk could probably make a more durable gear and not be afraid of the big bad fibre waste. Note, Wolk has been making gray plastic type gears for Century projectors and they seem to wear as good or BETTER than the fibre gears they have replaced.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-29-2007, 01:37 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The story I hear on the delrin gears replacing fibre gears was due to health hazards of the fibre hobbing process (dust) as well as the life-spand of the hobbers was significantly shorter than with the delrin type.

Sorry but thats a load of crap! The main problem is that there doesn't exist decent fibre (actually phenolic) in quantity and variety like there used to be... Fibre is nothing more than layers of linen cloth and resins layered up to the thickness and density you want. Part of the reason for phenolic's demise is the availability of superior composite materials... which are probably alot more dangerous to inhale than fibre dust. Wolk is using a good composite material in their gears at the moment and the wearability is darn good(when you get good ones). As for fibre... LaVezzi seems to still have a good source of it.. probably made to their specs... but it IS more expensive.

So... no one has explained why the plastic couplers yet? Seems stupid to put a weak fuse in a good product. Geez, what would the already expensive projector cost with the old styl;e coupler... a couple hundred more [Roll Eyes]

. Big deal!

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-29-2007, 03:21 PM:

Maybe they decided to make it out of delrin, since the Germans are so in love with that stuff. [Razz]

Seriously, what's Wolk's contact info. That damned coupler is pretty much my only headache with the PK60s. When using the projector with their lamphouses (and glass reflector), obviously the heat isn't a problem. But since the PK60 projector is specifically designed to be mounted on other's lamphouses, they really should've realized that heat would be an issue and that plastic nonsense wouldn't cut it.

Just run one show with a failed (or unplugged) circulator on a 6K lamp and watch what happens!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-30-2007, 05:31 PM:

Better a plastic coupler fail than a cam and star damaged in a pile up
I very rarely have to replace either Ballantyne or Phillips couplers
A lot depends on just how competent the operators are at framing racking and gate tension

Posted by Samuel Andrew Wetzel (Member # 3759) on 08-02-2007, 08:22 PM:

Thanks for all of the advice everyone. Brad, although the water cooler seemed to be working fine it wasn't (and I did forget to mention that there was a heat filter mounted). I ran a loop of Flat Buena Vista green bands after a show and the film was bouncing everywhere. I waited for the projector to cool and sure enough, the image was relatively steady. I replaced the water circulator today, as well as reverse the film-runner strips and replace the plastic skate. It's working much better now, I ordered a new intermittent as well.

I may have missed this in a previous post, but where can I purchase the metal varieties of the skate and runners?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-02-2007, 09:10 PM:

No, no, no, no, no. Don't order a replacement intermittent. It's the intermittent COUPLER (or framing coupler, however they have it listed) that you have to replace! Kinoton should do a repair/exchange on that item for not too much money. (Don't forget to empty the oil before you change it!)

Your dealer should be able to order you the metal runners.

Also, make sure you get the height of the new skate set properly or you will chew it up. That also affects vertical steadiness.

When you change out the coupler, there is a bit of a procedure to tightening the 4 allen screws on the end cap equally as well as the flat head screw you see there as well. Best to talk to your tech or contact Kinoton America so it gets done right.

Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 08-03-2007, 10:34 AM:

Yes, what Brad said! Do not replace the intermittent! To replace the coupler aka framing bushing you need to remove the entire film trap assy from the machine, there are 4 short allen head screws holding it in. After the trap is out you need to rack the framing knob all the way in one direction to push the coupler out of the machine. You might find a technician to do it for you if you do not feel confident. You should also get a small allen head screw along with the part, you thread that into the old coupler to pull it out of the machine, if you don't get the screw, it can still be removed, but may need a pair of pliers to do it!

Posted by Samuel Andrew Wetzel (Member # 3759) on 08-03-2007, 08:16 PM:

my mistake. it's listed as a framing coupler...i'll order it. thanks

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 08-14-2007, 06:16 PM:

After a nice vacation I return to see a number of strange comments about Kinotons.

First, note that Mr. Wetzel writes "when i run test film...such as RP-40 the image is stable, however, when an actual movie is shown the shaking is noticable". That of course is a clear indication that the problem is unstable images on the prints, not a projector problem. Also, let me point out that the auditorium in question, which I have visited on a courtesy call, has an enormous screen, perhaps 80' wide. That is why only that one house in the complex has a Kinoton...the previous projector (as used in their smaller screens) looked nasty on this giant screen.

Second, as far as I and my colleauges here and in Germany know, there have never been any Kinoton or Philips coupler interior made of metal of any sort. We also have original vellums of nearly all the Philips parts and the couplers are clearly made of Delrin. If anyone has such a thing I'd love to see it, but I sincerely doubt it ever existed. It is true that some few years ago production of the couplers changed from Philips to Kinoton. This is because Philips, who now is an enormous manufacturer of all sorts of things, just wasn't interested in making parts (framing couplers) for types of products they no longer made. Kinoton now makes the couplers, which are very nearly the same as the Philips-produced ones. Regarding MiT or others making knock-off couplers and the use of "a ten cent part", I have seen the manufacture of the new couplers which include high precision injection molded components as well as the metalwork and individual testing and I can assure everyone that this is not an inexpensive part to make, and that the startup costs to make the first ones would be extremely high.

My experience with lots of these machines gives me insight to to issues related to all this talk of a lowering of stability.

One problem is heat. There is no question that extreme gate tempratures result in less stability. Kinoton has always offered gate cooling kits and water coolers (with actual heat exchangers or chillers; not the inefective pump-in-a-bucket things), and reccomended them over 3kW. Most projection engineers will tell you that running high wattage lamps without cooling is a poor idea on several counts. Some consoles with metal reflectors have particularly high heat output and when run without heat filters are almost guaranteed to produce a poor picture. As lots of theatres now have large bulbs, this is a more prevalent problem.

A second problem is gate tension. Kinoton uses Delrin in the gate because it is a slippery plastic that lets the film glide through the gate more easily reducing film damage and producing a more stable picture. Over the last few years I have seen the following scenario that ends up making the Kinoton gate design look bad due to a lack of understanding. A print comes in that is unstable (due to the giant print orders now common; Deluxe Toronto routinely prints 10-15 million feet a day). The operator tries to correct the movement by increasing gate tension. There is no, or little, change. Either shoulders are shrugged or a new print is ordered (good luck). What usually does not happen is that the gate tension is reduced by the old technique of lowering it 'till there's a bit of jump, then increasing it just a bit. So the gate tension remains very high wearing away at the skate, runner strip and coupler. This same thing happens to all machines treated thusly, but the wear shows up sooner on the Delrin parts. And as Brad mentions, we do make steel runner strips...we also have harder, longer lasting skates. But the real answer is to keep the gate tension at a minimum, something I was taught a zillion years ago as an apprentice.

Theatres that run Kinotons with adequate cooling (water and/or filters as needed) and low gate tension generally have very long lives for their couplers and gate parts. And places like studios and DI facilities use Kinoton projectors with Delrin parts because they want the most stability available. I think the bigger issues here are not equipment quality, but application and operation.

Larry

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-14-2007, 06:46 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
Better a plastic coupler fail than a cam and star damaged in a pile up

Plastic couplers rarely save the Ballantyne star as large as it is... unfortunately it is not a case hardened star and cam like the Century or Simplex and many times the tip of the star breaks off... webbed or not the webbing doesn't help all that much. I almost always have to replace the star and cam after a nasty pile up on a PRO-35. And I too agree it all translates to the competance of the person in the booth!! There are a couple of Ballantynes left out here that have never broken down... good operator.

Larry,

I definately had a bronze coupler in an FP-20 way way back, thats why I brought it up. The replacement coupler came from Jim Eves. I can't see any reason that it couldn't be bronze again except for cost. Certainly is alot more durable... and heat resistant. There are places that specialize in the manufacture of splines and the like.

With the use of Delrin couplers water cooling with large lamps is mandatory and a water flow switch should also be mandatory in the fail safe loop to shut things off in the advent of water pump failure or low cooling fluid level.

While we're on the subject of bounce you might want to check the E-Machine at Sundance sometime soon(talk to Vince or Greg)!! Seems it doesn't do too well running acetate stuff.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 08-14-2007, 07:44 PM:

I think a bronze coupler might have issues with thermal expansion in a high heat enviroment (try slideing out a brass apperture in a hot machine in some cases)
I think I replaced one kinoton coupler and the only ballantyne ones are from a bad pile up that shouldn't have happened if the operator had looked after things

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 08-17-2007, 09:08 PM:

I find what Larry Shaw say's interesting information and agree what he say's.The Kinoton FP50D's I have are 7 years old now and have not had any couplers fail in that time and all still give a rock steady image even on our biggest screen which is 55'.Heat isnt a problem either as we are using cooling supplied by Kinoton.Only time we get unsteady image is due to the print but that is rare as most are printed here in Australia.I find the the runer strips are excellant and last very well and can get 18 months out of them maybe more depending on use.As Larry mentioned you dont need much tension on the film.I cant see the point in using steel runners and making enquiries here they dont stock them so why bother as the runners currently supplied by Kinoton wear well and do the job and are gentle to the film and again have not had any problems.Kinotons are a fine projector but like any machine they have problems ocassionly but nothing major and any problems are attended to by Kinoton techs here.If they are looked after they will run troube free 99% of the time.

Posted by Samuel Andrew Wetzel (Member # 3759) on 11-08-2007, 12:07 AM:

Larry,

Didn't mean to scare you with any comments about kinotons. They are amazing machines...and I did realize that if the RP-40 or schneider test loops run with almost zero bob or weave that the vertical shaking is due to a combination of print problems, heat, and, like you mentioned, the incredible amount of magnification for a 35 mm print. I had to simply plead ignorance because, being the only kinoton in operation here, I didn't know too much at the time about it...and I was looking for ways to minimize the shaking even with the negative factors. Although we have a pretty worthless water circulator, changing the skates and pressure pads frequently, making sure the pad is tight against the intermittent sproket, and keeping it clean keep the shaking to a level unnoticeable by the general public. It was interesting to hear that you've been at our location...must have been a while before I started working here though.

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 11-08-2007, 07:56 AM:

Sam,

Luckily it takes quite a bit more that that to scare me. However I'm glad the picture is looking good. And I'm happy to know someone at your theatre is trying to put on a technically proficient show (unlike so many others).

If the water cooler isn't keeping the gate cool, moving the pump into a substantially larger water tank would help, but far better is putting a small radiator (like an automotive heater core) in series with the return water line and having a small fan blow over the fins. Or of course one could buy a properly engineered water cooler...as opposed to the essentially useless water relocation device I believe you currently have.

I visited about two years ago, shortly after the now-closed giant screen theatre opened downtown. That place has a 35/4 + 70/5 + 70/8 Kinoton. Unfortunately I guess Appleton has a small audience for that sort of facility.

Larry

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-08-2007, 08:12 AM:

Hi, Larry.

Stupid question: is there a difference between the white skate and the black skate (other than the color)?

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 12-11-2007, 03:39 AM:

Scott,
Not at all a stupid question. There is no difference except the black ones produce less stray light in the booth, which most folks prefer. The material is otherwise identical.
Larry

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-11-2007, 03:51 AM:

I've seen, from a distance, some that were a sort of bronze colour; what were they?

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 12-11-2007, 04:05 AM:

Hi Stephen,
That is a long-life skate. We think of it as more of a tan or beige color. It is a hard material, some have asked if it is a ceramic (its not)and it can break if smashed against a hard surface. The trade offs are higher cost and a less slippery surface resulting in a tiny bit less stability and greater dirt retention. We sell few.

Coincidentally I just finished an hour or so at http://www.lamptech.co.uk . A very interesting site. Thanks.

Larry

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-11-2007, 06:47 AM:

quote: Larry Shaw
That is a long-life skate. We think of it as more of a tan or beige color. It is a hard material, some have asked if it is a ceramic (its not)and it can break if smashed against a hard surface. The trade offs are higher cost and a less slippery surface resulting in a tiny bit less stability and greater dirt retention. We sell few.

I can't see the point in it, if the only advantage is a a longer life. I don't know what the normal ones cost, but whatever it is it's going to be a tiny amount in the total cost of running a cinema, and the normal ones last for quite a while. (unless you do what I did once, and leave light on scren with the gate open for a few seconds, until you notice the smoke coming from it. [Frown]

quote: Larry Shaw
Coincidentally I just finished an hour or so at http://www.lamptech.co.uk . A very interesting site. Thanks.

It's an interesting site. It's run by James Hooker; he doesn't get much time to work on it, so updates are rather infrequent.

The 2kW three electrode xenon lamp from a tank searchlight web page looks very similar to the ones used in the early BTH xenon conversions for film projectors; terrible things, I haven't seen one for years, and I don't think you can get the lamps now.

The Philips 500W water cooled mercury lamp, web page looks something like the pulsed lamps that Philips used for projection, from pictures that I've seen of them, though I've never actually seen one of the lamps. Bernard Tonks would know; he used to run them.

There's something here about a repair that James did on an old lightbulb; he's a clever fellow.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 12-11-2007, 08:56 AM:

quote: Stephen Furley
The Philips 500W water cooled mercury lamp, web page looks something like the pulsed lamps that Philips used for projection, from pictures that I've seen of them, though I've never actually seen one of the lamps. Bernard Tonks would know; he used to run them.

Well almost the same, and as the website picture except that Philips used 800 watts for the FP20 pulse light projector.

To quote from a manual, the SSP.800 gas discharge lamp consists of a quartz tube only 3-1/8” (80mm long), 72 impulses per second or three impulses per frame, there of course being no flicker shutter. The average life of lamp was 33 hours under full load. The average bulb life at the ABC Queens, Bayswater was between 60-70 hours, and many did upto 115 hours. The size of scope screen was 36’. This was in the year 1960, and the lamps were water cooled.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-11-2007, 09:29 AM:

I've tested the tan skate and can confirm what Larry said. My preference is the black skate (and of course metal runners instead of the delrin).

Posted by Larry Shaw (Member # 388) on 12-11-2007, 03:00 PM:

We actually have a Pulselight setup here at our shop, but not hooked up. I particularly enjoy the Bosch automotive spark plugs in the power supply. Seems perfect for a Drive-In.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-11-2007, 04:03 PM:

I ran both a pair of FP16 and a pair of FP20 with pulse light