Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What would you do if your print flew off?

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Posted by Wyatt Copeland (Member # 4433) on 08-06-2007, 11:32 AM:

This happened a while ago, but when I was breaking down Stranger than Fiction, the peg in my ring broke (darn old used equipment). I ended up with a plate full of spaghetti film(about four reels worth on the floor).
We ended up winding it back up by hand. It took a while and I'm sure the movie is extremely dirty now, but we did it.
Aside from trashing it and paying the hefty fee, are there any alternatives to what I did?

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-06-2007, 12:46 PM:

If most of it was mostly circular you could possibly get something underneath it to lift it back onto a platter, stick a brain in, and run the movie onto a platter with another ring that's hopefully not gonna break.

Though I'm sure you can (now) get replacement pegs for the broken ring. Wouldn't hurt to get a bunch of them if your other rings are just as old.

Posted by Wyatt Copeland (Member # 4433) on 08-06-2007, 12:49 PM:

Yeah..I went through and replaced all the pegs even if they didn't need it.
As for slipping something under it..probably would have helped if it hadn't exploded. It hit the table and the middle just shot into the air. Really strange considering it wasn't going all that fast.
Thanks [Smile]

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 08-06-2007, 02:30 PM:

I have found that in almost every instance, the operator cranks up the speed too fast while breaking down. Usually when it's flung off, it will stay somewhat in order. For one guy, we carefully dropped the hunk of film into a large garbage pail with wheels. While slowly winding the film out and onto a reel, we could spin the garbage pail around and around to keep the film from twisting.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-06-2007, 02:51 PM:

Spend a hundred bucks, get yourself a FT platter ring. You'll never have that problem again.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-06-2007, 02:55 PM:

Don't throw the print in the trash or the studio will try to have you murdered for "piracy" or some such nonsense.

Generally if a print gets tossed there are large chunks of it that are still in "loop" form. I had this happen (one peg on the center ring broke) on Titanic, and I got it back together making only 5 splices. Here is how to do it.

First, DON'T TOUCH OR MOVE THE PILE OF FILM!!!

Ok now that we have made that clear, it's time to pick up the first (easiest) loop of film that you can. You want to try and keep the sections in as large of a piece as possible without any tangling. Cut the film 2 perforations off of a camera cut frameline. (Yes, right dead center of the image, 1/2 of a frame to either side of where the camera changes angles. You can use a pair of scissors.) Set the loop of film onto an empty platter, thread the middle of it through the brain and route the rollers onto the MUT so that the MUT is breaking down "through" the brain. Let this loop of film wind onto the reel, making sure you DO NOT LEAVE IT! As the film accumulates onto the reel, it will pull the film through the brain faster and faster. As such you will end up with a brain wrap if you leave it for more than maybe a minute, so expect to have to slow your MUT down every minute or so during this process.

Now that you have the first chunk of film onto a reel (this may be 5 minutes worth of 3 reels worth), it's time to repeat that process again and again until you get it all onto reels.

At this point all of the reels SHOULD be "tails up"...but not necessarily. Regardless start with the last reel, which should be obvious to you. Wind it over to a 6000' reel, remembering that you just wound them THROUGH the brain, so the film rolls will not be wound tightly. In order to prevent further damage, you need to almost fully back off on your supply drag clutch on the rewind table.

When you get that last chunk of film onto the 6000 foot reel, look at the tip of it. You will either see a series of frames, with the first one cut in half...or you will see a series of frames, and then 2 perforations of a different frame. Regardless, just match it up to the next reel so you have a matching frame when the two ends are butted up against each other. Once you have found the next reel, cut the 2 perforations out and make a proper splice. Wind that reel and continue on and on until you get the entire movie back onto two or three 6000 foot reels, then reload to the platter.

Don't forget to run a film cleaner on the very next show!!! In fact you should plan on running the film cleaner on the next several shows at least to clean up the dust you picked up.

If you follow this routine and your booth is carpeted, you can expect for the print to essentially still be in near-perfect viewable condition. If you have a tile or cement floor, well you're just screwed, but at least this will help you get it back together in the most efficient way possible.

(FYI - if you were planning on shipping this print out, you still need to run it at least once and make sure you have it all put back together properly, which it should be. Then break it back down normally.)

Posted by Wyatt Copeland (Member # 4433) on 08-06-2007, 03:03 PM:

Thanks brad. Thats a lot better response than my bosses. Hopefully it will never happen again(and so far it hasn't. I've restricted the muts to go at a fair pace even when cranked up.) and hopefully if it does, I'll have my FC-1 repaired.
Very nice advice! I'll have to jot it down and tape it to the wall upstairs just in case [thumbsup]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-06-2007, 03:20 PM:

If only my schedule wasn't so busy, I would make a how to video by intentionally slinging this very deserving print off of the platter and then putting it back together showing this technique.

Posted by Wyatt Copeland (Member # 4433) on 08-06-2007, 03:46 PM:

Itd be worth it just to see that print fly through the air.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-06-2007, 05:11 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Spend a hundred bucks, get yourself a FT platter ring. You'll never have that problem again.

He's not talking about a print thrown in the middle of a show. He's talking about breaking down a print and having the ring break apart.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-06-2007, 05:16 PM:

I've had a lot of luck with the "figure-8" lay. That is, you hold the loop of film (doesn't matter how much so long as you can hold it and it will be for several minutes).

You lay the film on the ground in a figure-8 fashion. That is, you hold the loop of film in one hand (say your left hand to start)...take your right hand and pull the top most wrap of film to the right. Then pass the loop to your right hand and pull the next wrap off to the left....repeat....repeat...repeat until the entire wad is now on the ground but HOLD ON TO THE END OF THE FILM and don't let it fall into the rather huge pile that is on the ground. The pile may look tangled but it isn't...it will lay there just fine and not kill itself unless you mess with it. Take that end that still in your hand and load it onto a reel on your MUT...guide the film into the reel so that the face of the film doesn't hit either flange. You can go a pretty high speed...as fast as your hands will allow without cutting. The film will pull up like a single strand of spaghetti.

Believe it or not...it doesn't take long to lay a large amount of film down but it does take a fair amount of space.

I've saved many a rattled operator with this technique and the film doesn't seem to show any worse for wear (the part that was just laid down...the parts that might have been pulled and stretched durring the mishap...that is another story).

Mostly, I've used it to reverse an upside down reel (always by others, I might add).

Steve

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-06-2007, 06:49 PM:

quote: Chris Slycord
He's not talking about a print thrown in the middle of a show. He's talking about breaking down a print and having the ring break apart.

Oh. Yeah. Sorry. But, still get a ring, it's worth the investment.

Posted by Christopher Meredith (Member # 3767) on 08-06-2007, 07:32 PM:

I developed a technique for this once, by necessity. One of my trainees, after having been explicitly told not to try to move a print by himself, decided that moving a print from one platter deck to another was an acceptable exception. He was wrong and ended up dumping "Superman Returns" from the top platter right onto the floor.

What I ended up doing was taking a fistful of cable ties and set to work. I gathered up the largest sections possible without disturbing the "nest" and tied them off, one by one. Once I had separated it out as best I could. I cut the sections apart from one another until I had 7 or 8 large sections and several hundred (manageable) feet of twisted mess leftover. I then got the shipping reels out of the can and put one on the spindle of the rewind bench and threaded the inside of one of the large loops onto it. Then I laid the whole loop on the core of the reel, cut the cable tie, and started the motor, slowly. The flanges of the reel kept the section together and it eventually wound itself back onto the reel. I repeated the process until I had all the film wound up onto reels. Then it was just a matter of rebuilding the print back onto the platter, being careful to re-attach the sections at the right places.

Doing this, I was able to re-assemble the print, run it through the film cleaner, and break it down properly by myself, in one shift, while still running the projection booth as normal.

(This was a far cry better than when I had to help clean up "Prisoner of Azkaban" and it took three of us until sunup the next day to get it all back in the can!)

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-06-2007, 11:44 PM:

Course, you can have this booth dilemma when a splice decides to hang up in the failsafe and all 5 reels pile up under the machine..

But, it was an easy cleanup as mentioned: grab the tail end and just wind the mess back up on reels on the MUT and not touching any of the film since it was laying down on top of another, then rebuild back on the platter - sending the completed build through a few passes through the Kelmar and FG and you're good to go as if it didn't happen.

Luckilly, this mess happened during the last show of the night, thus that closing operator had the privilege to do the procedures as mentioned above, thus no showings were lost.

Oh, I've had the dubious honour to clean up a print that flew off the deck on breakdown when the ring decides to undone itself from the deck and 6 reels went 'frisbee style' on the floor since the brain wasn't in the middle of that breakdown deck.

I'd just simply broke each splice to where I pulled out each reel from the "nest" and laid them aside. Then, just took each reel, put it on the deck, put a ring in the middle to help contain the that mess, spun the deck to match up with the rewind reel on the MUT and had all of that mess done within two hours with this procedure.

TONS, TONS of Fun! [Big Grin]

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 08-07-2007, 12:24 PM:

Boy Monte! I' sure glad to see I'm not the only one this has happened to. We (myself and two other assistant managers) shut down the machine (which was still running) and slowly ran it by hand onto the take-up platter. That happened to be the latest "Pirates". I put a film cleaner on the machine for the next round. We never did figure out why it failed to take up. Must have been at least a reel. Did I ever tell you I hate platters?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-07-2007, 01:25 PM:

quote: Robert E. Allen
Did I ever tell you I hate platters?

Why I loved this Cinemeccanica 4x4 Tower (My apologies on inserting that previous pix. Edited it out due to nonapproval and added these others of a 3plex cinema which opened in 1977 that I used to work at that has been long closed down)

and this Cinemeccanica V-18 setup [Big Grin]

- Monte

[ 08-08-2007, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]

Posted by Wyatt Copeland (Member # 4433) on 08-07-2007, 01:41 PM:

Wow..that looks like it'd be a lot of fun!

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-07-2007, 04:53 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
If only my schedule wasn't so busy, I would make a how to video by intentionally slinging this very deserving print off of the platter and then putting it back together showing this technique.

The slinging part sounds good: it's working up the motivation to put it back together again that would give me problems!

Now a remake of 'Jailhouse Rock' starring Paris Hilton...

Posted by Hugh McCullough (Member # 1542) on 08-08-2007, 06:25 AM:

Whilst it is very flattering to know that Film Tech people visit my site, and save some of my photographs (Cinemeccanica 4x4 Tower), would it not be good manners to give a site credit, or link?

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 08-08-2007, 04:32 PM:

Interesting there still one Cinemeccancia Victoria 18 (like the one in the picture) still working in a single screen Cinema called the Palace Cinema, Bridport in Dorset, England.

The cinema was shut anout 7 years and reopened early this year ans still retains this projector, must be the last of this type in the UK?

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-08-2007, 05:09 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Why I loved this Cinemeccanica 4x4 Tower

Not me. As inconsistent as any clutch-type takeup can be, those things were terrible... way too much tension at the start, not much at the end. I also didn't care for the fact that the projector had to pull the film off the feed reel... probably, I was already spoiled by the Sword.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-08-2007, 05:21 PM:

Yes, I can see the concern on that variable clutch thing, but had all the clutches adjust justright where we never had any off-tension issues - for one really needed to know how to adjust that clutch assembly and find that sweet spot. Sorry, never ran EPRAD SWORDS only seen them at work, thus can't comment on them against the Cinemeccania versions. But, the SWORD system did look very effective in large reel operation - as with the MUTTS and the Mini MUTTS.

On takeoff with the 4X4 and even on the V-18's, we would do the thumb rest on the edge of the reel when payout began to keep the film taught right until the reel speed and film speed became constant.

Yet, the V-18's were tons superior to the 4X4 due to the stepping startup that the 3ph/208v projector motor had - system would begin with one phase so the motor would start slow then add another phase to the motor for gradual speed up then the last phase to ramp the motor to full speed.

With this 4X4 and these V-5 units, we didn't have that rampup luxury as did the V-8's, thus the thumb usage was the norm. Yet, these V-5's had one big problem and that was the motor's RPM was very low at operation - think these were rotating at 950RPM or such..

-Monte

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 08-09-2007, 06:40 AM:

quote: Ben Wales
Interesting there still one Cinemeccancia Victoria 18 (like the one in the picture) still working in a single screen Cinema called the Palace Cinema, Bridport in Dorset, England.

The cinema was shut anout 7 years and reopened early this year ans still retains this projector, must be the last of this type in the UK?

I have some video footage of the Electric Palace Bridport, frontage, foyer, auditorium, and manager/projectionist Ken Wright being interviewed for TV during the days when the equipment was Westar projectors and carbon Peerless Magnarc’s, and again later when changed to the Cinemeccancia Victoria 18.

There's a picture somewhere of the original BTH sound equipment
with the sound-on-disc attachments left in situ until the Westar projectors were installed during the 1970's I believe.

The Electric Palace has almost been restored to its former glory with the hand painted pictures on the auditorium walls. There is a Panascope tour on the website.
http://www.electricpalace.org.uk/

Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 08-09-2007, 04:49 PM:

[QUOTE] [/Though I'm sure you can (now) get replacement pegs for the broken ring. Wouldn't hurt to get a bunch of them if your other rings are just as old.
QUOTE]

Sounds like the kids' story "For Want of a Horse Shoe Nail."
Who knew years ago that replacement pegs would become available?
Fortunately I like Chinese takeout, and in an emergency wedged a section of a hardwood bamboo chopstick into the ring, later securing it further with epoxy.

Posted by Wyatt Copeland (Member # 4433) on 08-09-2007, 05:16 PM:

quote: Gerard S. Cohen
wedged a section of a hardwood bamboo chopstick into the ring

That is awesome! Our other projectionist just took the ring witht the broken peg, bent it, wrote a few choice words with a marker on it and tossed it in a corner. We still have our "Piece of @#$% used @#$%ty @#$% stupid @#$% ring." as a reminder.