Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DTS Problem with Die Hard 4

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Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 08-10-2007, 03:40 AM:

Hi
Equipment is DTS XD10 and Panastereo CSP1200.
For about the first three minutes of DH4 everything runs fine.....DTS sounding FAT.
A splice goes through.....haven't had time as yet to have a look at the splice to see why it is there......XD10 loses Digital so only displays time code(no film or reel info)....CSP1200 switches to SR......this is the way it stays for the rest of the show.
The TCR light stays solid ON all the time.
I haven't tried rebooting the XD10 after the splice as yet to see if the DTS kicks back in......I'm always hesitant to reboot an XD10 while it's reading timecode.......I suppose I could have stuck a card in front of the TCR red led and then rebooted...I didn't think of that at work!
I deleted the file and reinstalled it in between sessions and that changed nothing.
Could there be a big chunk of film missing here that could be causing it?
Cheers Ian

Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 08-10-2007, 05:29 AM:

Is this related to a new title sequence for the change from "Live Free or Die Hard" to "Die Hard 4.0" ? Maybe the timecodes are OK for the new title but then revert to original timecodes for the rest.

I haven't seen this sort of thing since "Strange Days", where different reels had different timecodes.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-10-2007, 08:08 AM:

There is no reason why you can't re-boot an XD-10 while it is playing. It should chase the time code and resume playing when its booted up again.

Mark

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 08-10-2007, 08:35 AM:

That's good to know Mark....I was told that you could corrupt the software if you turn it off while it is reading.
Still don't understand why the XD-10 continues to read timecode OK but won't resume digital....and also why I lose DTS at the splice.
So Peter what your saying is that I have got 3 mins of one film connected to 2hrs whatever of another film?
I'll try rebooting the XD-10 after the splice goes through and see what happens.
Cheers Ian

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-10-2007, 09:59 AM:

While I cannot help you with your immediate problem; logically you should be able to power down any device in the booth without corrupting it. What if the power went out?? This is a test I do on any new equipment that runs on software. Louis

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-10-2007, 10:14 AM:

quote: Ian Bailey
So Peter what your saying is that I have got 3 mins of one film connected to 2hrs whatever of another film?

I'm not Peter but I can answer this: In the US, the film was titled "Live Free or Die Hard," but in other countries it's called "Die Hard 4.0."

The time you don't want to power-down an XD10 is when it is busy booting up. Wait until it's finished.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-10-2007, 10:40 AM:

quote:
e time you don't want to power-down an XD10 is when it is busy booting up. Wait until it's finished.

That problem was recently addressed with the new firmware upgrade. Its now ok to power down while its booting up or if you have many power bumps it won't hurt the player. The computer will automatically do a checkdisk (what ever thats called in Linux) and fix any drive errors automatically during the next boot up.

One important thing... Don't power the unit down from a breaker panel and re-power it this way. This is known as a cold start. Keep the units plugged into an always live outlet and use the front panel power switch to turn it on and off. This is actually a soft start feature of the motherboard and is much easier on the system overall.

Mark

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-10-2007, 08:09 PM:

Interesting.

Watch the serial number (not the film title) on the XD10 display. Does it change when the splice goes through?

Posted by Mike B. Smith (Member # 2829) on 08-10-2007, 08:10 PM:

The timing is suspect not the splice. Remember if the XD10 is not updated to the latest software verson 2.00.xx the XD10 will drop out and stop playing aproximatley two minutes into the reel. Rebooting during the show won't hurt, but it won't help, if the software is not correct and up to date. First step, check the software version.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-10-2007, 08:16 PM:

Will it play the first two minutes of each reel, or only the first reel?

Posted by Mike B. Smith (Member # 2829) on 08-10-2007, 08:47 PM:

If the software has not been updated the system will only play the first two minutes of any reel. It should be noted that this does not apply to trailer discs or feature attached trailers. Trailers will play on systems that have not been updated, usually this is the clue (or confusion) why the feature does not play and points directly to software needing to be updated.

Posted by Michael Hossen (Member # 4274) on 08-11-2007, 05:21 AM:

To the OP. This is happening on our print with the XD10. Also using the Panastereo CSP1200, the problem is it isn't reverting to SR when the DTS drops out.

We're not using the DTS at the moment, for Die Hard.

BTW, whats the latest version of firmware for the XD10?

Posted by Mike B. Smith (Member # 2829) on 08-11-2007, 01:55 PM:

Check the software, must have V2.00.43

If you do not have the correct software check this site I believe Brad has it available for download or you can contact DTS direct for a copy, DTS does not charge for update discs. If you have problems getting a copy let me know.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-11-2007, 02:27 PM:

Yup, it's here.

This is a zip file containing ISO disc images. You will need one blank CD, one blank DVD, one USB memory drive, a DVD burner, DVD burning software, WinZip to unzip the file, as well as one heck of a solid and fast internet connection. THIS IS A 3.5 GIG DOWNLOAD. See the text file and the pdf file inside the zip archive for specific instructions.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-11-2007, 10:11 PM:

[slightly off topic]
For safety's sake, it might be a good idea to post an MD5SUM of the file just in case something got corrupted during downloading.

I'd hate to be the guy who downloaded and burned 3.5 GB worth of stuff to find out the disk they made was worthless.

If you're using windows I believe there's a program called "md5summer" which'll calculate the md5 hash value for you. If you're in any unix variant you should probably already have "md5sum" from the command line.

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 08-12-2007, 08:44 PM:

Hi Mike
I felt sure I had the latest version of the software for the XD-10......I will check it as it is only playing the first few minutes then dropping out.The only thing the XD-10 shows on the panel from that point on is the time code being read and no other info.Rebooting the XD=10 does nothing after the drop out.
It's weird how it's happening right at this misterious splice.
I've swapped screens today to try it in my other XD-10 so it will be interesting to see what happens.
Cheers Ian

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-12-2007, 09:48 PM:

If you really think the splice itself is the culprit why don't you try removing it (and cleaning up the location of if just to be safe) then remake the place?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 08-12-2007, 10:55 PM:

I don't think he means it's the actual splice, but more where the splice is. I think it's more likely an update issue.

I assume the prints are all new and not second-hand? Had once the case with American Pie 2 where there was a newly printed opening added to a second-hand reel one. The DTS worked OK until the splice as the versions obviously differed. As SRD was not an option due to the track on the used print being almost non-existant, we ended up getting the file elsewhere and made our own disc which included the Australian version and the US version of reel one and it played no problem at all.

[ 08-13-2007, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: John Wilson ]

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 08-15-2007, 10:39 PM:

Ok I am starting to become a little confused myself.

My DTS 6AD would not run harry Potter discs , I ran the upgrade from "Lucky You" feature discs , from that point on everything was working fine.

I too now have an issue with Die Hard 4 discs not reading , they start off then just stop reading , has there been in fact another upgrade done, do I need to install further discs or could it be my die hard discs are faulty ?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 08-16-2007, 03:35 AM:

Hey Phil

Are the prints new or second hand with the alternate title spliced on to the beginning as new stock?

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 08-16-2007, 11:02 AM:

There were two different versions of Die Hard 4 with two separate mixes, so if it looks as though they've spliced a head section from one print run onto the prints from the other version, then that might explain the DTS dropping out. There were two entirely separate runs of DTS discs with differing serial numbers, so if these prints are combining both versions then the DTS will play only through the print section matching what's on the disc.

Posted by Mike B. Smith (Member # 2829) on 08-16-2007, 12:47 PM:

Don't be confused Phil, the upgrade on your 6AD with Harry Potter should have been sufficent, no other updates have been issued. However as Dan pointed out,their were two different mixes done. This is a common practice but in most cases all reels are included on the same disc set so any print will find the correct audio file. So what you could do to futher check into the drop out is, on both the 6AD and the XD10 it will display the s/n and reel number when the timecode is recieved. Check the serial number printed on the disc and see if the displayed s/n changes when it drops out.

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 08-18-2007, 02:12 AM:

Thanks for the tips I will investigate.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-20-2007, 08:38 AM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Watch the serial number (not the film title) on the XD10 display. Does it change when the splice goes through?

quote: Daniel Schulz
There were two entirely separate runs of DTS discs with differing serial numbers

hmmm....

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-23-2007, 04:21 PM:

quote: Mike B. Smith
However as Dan pointed out,their were two different mixes done. This is a common practice but in most cases all reels are included on the same disc set so any print will find the correct audio file.

Hey Mike -- could you elaborate on how this works? Assuming both versions have their sound track reels numbered starting at R1, how do you combine the two versions on one set of discs?

Do you put the duplicate reel number on opposite discs (ie. version A on disc A, version B on disc B) to prevent naming collisions? Or is the filename meaningless (save for the .APX extension) such that you can simply rename the files? Or do you do something else?

Thanks.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 08-24-2007, 01:18 PM:

Ah, there's the rub: DTS couldn't include both versions on one set of discs. When there is a single alternate reel (as when there is a re-mix for international territories to accomodate a change in logos), DTS will include both versions of the reel by using an alternate reel number, e.g. assigning Reel 13 to the alternate reel 1. But when there are two entirely different mixes of the entire feature, there isn't enough disc real estate to include both versions, so there are separate disc runs and separate serial numbers: functionally, it's treated as two separate movies. This is why if it turns out Die Hard 4 has had prints spliced together from the two versions neither disc set will play back the entire feature.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 08-24-2007, 02:37 PM:

When one of the Star Wars features was issued (I'm thinking it was "AotC", there were International discs and Domestic discs. I did an exact comparison between the sets, and all discs contained the same reels and the files were bit-for-bit duplicates of each other. The only difference I could find was that the international version of the discs didn't have any Trailers in the R14 file (just the standard THX/DTS stuff). The same Serial Number is on both versions of the disc.

I'm still trying to track down DTS discs for International version of "Titanic", which SHOULD only have a change on R1 (for the Fox logo instead of Paramount). For a 197 minute film, I suspect there simply wasn't space to put both versions of R1 on the same set of discs. I'm also curious why they couldn't have just put the logo audio on the discs by themselves (like a trailer) and then printed the appropriate timecode on each version of R1.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 08-24-2007, 05:34 PM:

I expect that the effort involved to coordinate that was not worth the trouble...schedules, billing, remastering, etc. Frequently (in indy-land) there are spliced in distributor tags with no digital sound at all...

Another choice would have been to put, say, the Fox logo at 0-20 seconds, the Paramount logo at 20-40 seconds, and the rest of the feature at 40-bignum seconds. Then the domestic versions could start at 20 seconds in, and the international versions could track an edit from 20 seconds to 40 seconds... Of course, it's one more thing to screw up when printing the reels...

--jhawk

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 08-25-2007, 01:42 AM:

So are the prints new or used?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-26-2007, 03:30 AM:

Doubtful that the upgrades will be included in EVERY disc hence forth, right? I mean, a year or even two from now, will new DTS titles still have upgrade software on the discs? So what do guys like us do who are dark for long periods of time and haven't played HARRY POTTER. And mostly play stuff with no DTS so we might not play a DTS title for another year. So here comes a sneak preview down the road -- will it upgrade our unit? Or will it just not play? Seems like DTS should have upgrade discs available for situations like ours. We shouldn't have to rely on playing a specific title or group of titles in a limited time-frame window to keep our system functioning.

Posted by Mike B. Smith (Member # 2829) on 08-26-2007, 11:13 AM:

Yes Frank you are correct, DTS will not always place updates on every feature, the same updates placed on these feature discs are available thru other sources. Recent changes have been made which makes it very important that the latest updates be installed for proper playback; this is one of the reasons why the decision was made to push them through feature discs to get them in the units as soon as possible. DTS does it’s best to let users know when an update is available, notification of updates may be done by sending a letter directly to the Theater, placing notices with feature discs, or posting on the DTS web site. Although these notifications may not reach everyone there are several ways to find out if your unit is current and several sources available to obtain the update, Contact customer service at DTS and request an update disc for your unit, Check the DTS website for immediate update downloads, and with thanks to Brad, software updates can even be found on this site. DTS does not charge for updates and as a side note any future updates on features will be noted on the disc itself.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 08-26-2007, 09:32 PM:

Mike -- found it. And thanks for the heads-up.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-27-2007, 08:48 AM:

quote: John Hawkinson
Another choice would have been to put, say, the Fox logo at 0-20 seconds, the Paramount logo at 20-40 seconds, and the rest of the feature at 40-bignum seconds. Then the domestic versions could start at 20 seconds in, and the international versions could track an edit from 20 seconds to 40 seconds...

An even better option would have been to have both logos exactly the same frame count, and the sound be silent. Then it wouldn't matter which version of reel 1 you were playing and which version disks you were playing... actually, there wouldn't be a need for two sets of disks at all.

Interestingly enough, on the international version of Titanic the Fox logo is silent. I can't remember if the Paramount logo is silent on the domestic version, but if it is, that really makes the whole two sets of disks thing stupid.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-27-2007, 11:06 AM:

Paramount logo is always silent, isn't it? Unless there's some background sound from the feature behind the logo.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 08-28-2007, 12:22 PM:

Typically, the Paramount logo is silent - unless the audio ties into the feature as mentioned above.

I can only think of a handful of titles where the Fox Logo was silent - "Romancing the Stone" & "The Princess Bride" come to mind - and I am not entirely sure about "Romancing". Even so, the Fox and Paramount logos are different lengths, so direct frame-for-frame replacements may not be possible.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-28-2007, 01:43 PM:

quote: Blaine Young
Even so, the Fox and Paramount logos are different lengths, so direct frame-for-frame replacements may not be possible.

Pick whichever ones is longer and put that many frames of silent soundtrack on both versions of the print.

So when the shorter one is printed it's silent but then it's followed by some black frames that have silent soundtrack so that the total number of silent frames is the same as with the longer one.

Solved.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-28-2007, 03:17 PM:

They could standardize the lengths on the logos. I would think that would be in the best interest of both studios, and I wouldn't be surprised if they both did that anyway. You'd be surprised how picky studios can be about those types of details.

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 08-30-2007, 05:09 AM:

John the prints were new.
My XD-10 had the latest software installed so that did not cause the problem with DH4....must be as you guys are saying...2 possible soundtracks.....WHY?
Cheers Ian

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 08-30-2007, 12:26 PM:

Does the serial number change on the XD10 display when the splice goes through?

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 08-30-2007, 11:47 PM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Interestingly enough, on the international version of Titanic the Fox logo is silent. I can't remember if the Paramount logo is silent on the domestic version, but if it is, that really makes the whole two sets of disks thing stupid.

Just a point of clarification here - The Fox logo on the International prints of Titanic is not silent - At least not on the SR track. I've not played it in SRD or DTS yet so I cannot comment on that.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 09-01-2007, 11:15 PM:

Regarding Titanic Domestic vs International DTS discs:

The Domestic DTS discs are encoded as Reels 1 thru 10. The International discs are encoded as Reels 2 thru 10 and 13 as the 'replacement' Reel 1. Reel 14 (on both versions) the standard bumpers and Reel 15 (on both) is the THX Grand (SN 1004). So the only difference between the 2 DTS sets is Disc A. Reel 1 is replaced with R13 and the "Hard Rain" trailer has been removed from R14.

With some resequencing and using 80min CDs, all 11 reels and R14 & R15 can be placed on 2 CDs, so the same discs can be used with either print.

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 09-03-2007, 11:17 PM:

It seems my problem was the fact i had a used print from USA with the alternate tile spliced on , as has been mentioned here by others. the discs supplied were not for this print.

It finishes screening tomorrow so the problem is almost solved , very disappointed with this title , It was a good movie but sadly let down by the terrible quality print and this sound issue.