Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Christie AW3R Timing

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Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 10-12-2007, 01:18 AM:

Okay, I've been doing some PM at the theatre, and part of that is checking out the timing on the platters. I have one deck that when I'm setting the LED intensity, jumps around. Here are the settings suggested to me by our tech.

Volt Meter Setting 20M Ω
LED Intensity at 20º = 0.45Ω
At 20º motor barely moves or "growls"
At 70º 20 rotations per minute

Now my problem is getting the LED intensity to settle down at 0.45Ω. It started out at 0.50Ω, and when I went to turn it down, it jumped to 0.75Ω. So I turn in down farther and it drops to 0.30Ω.

Is this symptoms of a bad trim pot or card?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-12-2007, 03:22 AM:

Do you have a spare card to try out, or at least trading one card from a slot and moving it around?

Could also be a bad sensor in the tower's arm when you set the brain to the 20 degree mark. Or, the filter wheel could be loose on the shaft inside the arm to give you irratic readings.

I trust that you know that when you do these sensor settings that you let the system stabilize after removing the cards and after powering up before any readings can take place.

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 10-12-2007, 03:43 AM:

quote: Monte Fullmer
Do you have a spare card to try out, or at least trading one card from a slot and moving it around?

I assume you are refering to the card that has the LED intensity trim pots on it. I don't think that I have one laying around in one of my cabinets, but I haven't looked throughly.

quote: Monte Fullmer
I trust that you know that when you do these sensor settings that you let the system stabilize after removing the cards and after powering up before any readings can take place.

What is considered sufficent time to allow the platter to stablize? Generally, I take all three cards out, lay them in order 3, 2, 1, with 3 closest to the tree. Turn the power on and set all the payout arms at 20º. Set my plugs in 1, walk to the concession stand to get a drink momentairly, and then start setting limits. Generally this takes a total of about 3-5 mins in total. I would say 5 minutes is more the sufficent.

Now after I've set all the LEDs, and I've turned the power off to put the cards back in, do I have to let the LEDs stablize again?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-12-2007, 04:43 AM:

No, once the motor trim cards are put back in their respective slots and system is powered back on again, there is no stabilization period necessary.

If you have another AW3R in your theatre, swap out LED power control cards between the two and see if the resistance problem follow to that other platter, and if it does, then you got an LED power control card with a problem. BUT, if not, then the sensor is at fault.

Power control card no. 117509-001

Sensor part (the older one) no. 192847-002 ... and stock a couple of these ..

Motor control card fuses 546105-008

(if you goof on the hi/lo pots on the motor control card, you'll might pop those very small clear cylinder fuses mounted on the motor card - it's nice to have a few of these fuses available around as well...)

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-12-2007, 11:22 AM:

It is normal for there to be an unstable reading. There are two reasons for this. 1. The Cds cell itself has a memory/time lag. In addition, the source for LED power is unregulated and the LEDs are touchy: the transfer function for setting brightness has a steep rise between off and full up. )

I would swap senors first, then LED cards second until you find the "problem child." So Monte's suggestions are correct. Only just excpect the "ohms" to vary.

Also, look in the Tips secion of this web site to get full information on that platter. It is much better than the factory instructions. Louis

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 10-12-2007, 12:06 PM:

Great, Thanks for the information. I will try this out next time I'm working on them. I think i fiddled with it long enough, it'll get through til I have to work with it again.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-12-2007, 02:57 PM:

When it comes to checking resistance to set the LED intensity, I always use the 70@70 rule: With the payout arme at 70 degrees, resistance across pins 12 and 14 should be set to 70k-ohms.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-13-2007, 01:15 AM:

..and be handier if one uses a digital VOM meter for those resistance readings.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-13-2007, 09:27 AM:

Juat so all of you are aware...

Christie stopped using the old style photocell a couple of years ago.... The cells had become too inconsistant in manufacture.

There is a new kit available for well under $200.00 to convert older AW-3's to the new style sensor(IR LED and photo transistor). The new sensor kit also includes new filters since the new sensors read the filter at the edge and a new LED card. There are no longer any adjustments on the LED card and the sensors are self calibrating. All this leaves is the high/low speed controls to be set. Any AW-3 with this new kit installed is far more stable and reliable than it ever was.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-13-2007, 12:44 PM:

I've got 9 brand new AW3R platters at the SMG Arlington theater that have been in use for about 9 months. I am not impressed with them, and made that clear to Christie regarding them.

Anyone wanting the "upgrade kit", let's get together and do a swap. I'll trade you these brand new IR ones for some older visible leds. Mark? Any takers?

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 10-13-2007, 01:09 PM:

I concur with Brad. Have not had the greatest results with the IR kit. Christie still sells the old-style LED/Sensor assembly, so you can continue to replace them if they go bad.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-13-2007, 04:07 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
I've got 9 brand new AW3R platters at the SMG Arlington theater that have been in use for about 9 months. I am not impressed with them, and made that clear to Christie regarding them.

I find just the opposite! Over the last two years we've sold close to 30 platter systems and not one of them has broken down. The majority of them are in the dreaded Weststes chain and they literally get hammered! As far as the old sensors go both myself and Heir Guttag have had problems with them. Just last week I went through three new sensors before I found one that would barely make 70K. Best to get used to the new stuff... pretty soon you won't even be able to get the old cells at all.... thanks to ROHS.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-13-2007, 04:17 PM:

They don't break down Mark, they are simply unstable. Within 2 weeks, the timing was substantially too slow after their initial setup. Here 9 months later we have seen a substantial drop in speed that the decks are capable of.

This is fine for the average theater that doesn't set their timing all that well, as when the leds start to dim it makes the platter run better, but not for me. The visible leds did not suffer this sort of dimming.

So since you think they are so great, email me and let's do some swapping!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-13-2007, 05:15 PM:

quote:
The majority of them are in the dreaded Weststes chain and they literally get hammered!

Sounds like they've got a serious "infection" of sorts called poor training. Sounds like they need to convert their locations to digital.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-13-2007, 06:04 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
The visible leds did not suffer this sort of dimming.

Brad... if you can't see the IR led's how do you know they're fading? If you know of some visible LED's that never fade let me know the part number...

Again, I just have had zero problems with them and zero means no timing drift. I do check all platters when I go thorugh a complex. Makes me wonder if you got a bad batch. Sort of along the lines of you having all low error readings on SRD while I generally see 3 to 5 up here.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Sounds like they've got a serious "infection" of sorts called poor training.

No, much more serious than that. Its called make more $$ at McDonalds. Some locations are paying as much as $15.00 an hour to start. Monte... even you could be making more $$ [thumbsup]

.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-13-2007, 06:14 PM:

Mark, a few days before opening the platters were all timed and setup to very exacting standards. Within 2 weeks they were noticeably slower and there was only 3 of us working that booth the first two weeks and I am 100% certain that the doors weren't even opened to adjust the cards.

Re-timing them and another month down the road again they were running too slow. They keep getting slower and slower and slower. This is a fact. If you don't believe me, haul your butt down here for a few weeks and I will demo for you personally.

On the flipside, I've ran the older visible led platters for periods of a few years without ANY noticeable drift.

(Joe, Dwayne and I first played with the new IR "upgrade" in 2000 when they first came out with it. We all HATED it. The platters simply did not operate anywhere near as smoothly, although we didn't leave them in long enough to find out about the serious dropoff of level over time. Although I haven't spoken to Joe or Dwayne about that in years, I'll bet they very specifically remember #15 at the Chinese slinging prints for that week or so.)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-13-2007, 06:53 PM:

The IR kits I have definately don't go back to 2000. Apparently what I have is different. Lisa did mention that we had ordered the first "kits" to be pput together. Will check and let you know when I see you next week. Christie has had other motor cards too... the worst ones were the cards that were 555 based... the 555 is not an inherently stable IC. They replaced all of those.

What would have been interesting to note is the reading at the motor card contacts to see if the 70K point is what is actually drifting...

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-13-2007, 11:25 PM:

We had some of visible LED modules in stock...2 out of 3 would not meet spec when installed...Christie refused to warranty them even though they were never sold to a customer (never had the heat-shrink removed from the CDS until we tried them). To them, if a dealer has them for over 90-days on parts, too bad. Not exactly standing by their product. That makes it tough to support them by stocking spare parts since we have all the liability on the stuff.

Conversely, I just installed two Kinoton ST200Es....worked correctly right out of the crate, no timing required, perfect speeds.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-13-2007, 11:59 PM:

Call me crazy, but I've always had good luck with the timing procedure described in the AW3 manual, with a little bit of adjustment by feel. I've never even seen a thrown print and have had exactly one brainwrap, ever, which was my own fault (a botched trailer change). I'm sure that Brad's method works well, but I've not felt the need to try a new method.

Am I the only one who actually follows the Christie procedure for timing these platters?

(I have only worked with AW3s from 1979, the early 1990s, and 1998, and haven't seen the latest generation.)

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-14-2007, 01:50 AM:

Scott, by "exacting standards" I meant that they were all within 1/4 RPM of each other. The new IR system only lets you adjust the speed and nothing else, so you are stuck with however it runs.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-14-2007, 02:10 AM:

LOL that's funny Mark ... they'd have to pay me at least $20 bucks an hour to be one of their hi-tech burger flippers due to the cost of living in Weber/Davis/SLC and Utah counties..

(Gee, I'd have to be converted to the "McJob" world to do that. That'd be sorta tough to get adjusted into that routine..)

..but at least, they're be no gameplaying, babysitting, no family favortisms and including honest incentives and bonuses to be made instead of the old "it's not what you know, but who you know" sort of nonsense.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-14-2007, 09:10 AM:

Monte...

Oh come on... you already have a McJob,why would you want to work at one down here? They could pay you $9.00 hr. and you could work at the one in Nampa and not have to move. That would sure beat working for your boss! If you want the $15.00 per hour one you'd need to work at the one in West Yellowstone or Rock Springs...

Mark

Posted by Larry Bowen (Member # 3562) on 10-15-2007, 02:37 PM:

Unfortunetly the infection sometimes starts at the top. See Mark's comment about Westates. And I could go on and on and on about what they do too. I'm sure there are more examples where the infection continues to spread - even into the [respectable chains] (Name withheld to protect the moronic).
[puke]

I also think it's sad to see that those who have so much experience in the industry are being sucked into this infection that is spreading when people like Monte and Mark can do so much better than just have a "McJob" to where even McD's pays better. And you wonder why they're refered to as "Booth Clowns".

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-15-2007, 03:09 PM:

Larry,

I hardly consider my job a "McJob". My job is as varied as it gets and I get to utilize all my knowledge gained over the last 52 years of my life... I am also very well compensated... as well or better than most techs working in this buisness.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-15-2007, 08:54 PM:

(...no argument on that statement from me on Mark's qualifications....)

My job really isn't that bad where I don't consider it in the "McJob" catagory. But, there are those occasional days where it has its moments, but who doesn't have those days anywho?

But, it's a far cry from what it was 4 yrs ago when it really felt like a "McJob" for sure..and wished that I'd stayed put with my previous employer instead of getting "rabbit" and jumped the ship when the ship really wasn't sinking.

Guess, one can say that my boss is finally realizing that I rather important to his operation, for I do quite the bit to keep the operation running smooth.

-Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-16-2007, 12:28 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Guess, one can say that my boss is finally realizing that I rather important to his operation, for I do quite the bit to keep the operation running smooth.

Its about time! If only he noticed that in some of the other "long time" employees there they might take him a bit more seriously.

Mark

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 10-17-2007, 12:38 AM:

Okay, I tried resolving the problem again tonight, and it seems to have stayed where it was after swapping out another LED card from another platter that isn't having this symptom. The pot just didn't like to sit around 0.45Ω. It would jump from 0.48Ω to 0.42Ω. I would assume it's safe to say I have a troublesome LED or filter disk. I would attempt to see if it's the filter disc tonight if there wasn't a print sitting on the deck, and someone else was here to help me raise that deck, so this will have to wait for Thursday night. Thanks to everyone's help.

quote: Ken Lackner
I always use the 70@70 rule: With the payout arme at 70 degrees, resistance across pins 12 and 14 should be set to 70k-ohms.

How does this setting work? Pins 12 and 14, are those the first 2 pin connections starting from the left if you were looking at the platter from the takeup side? How many rotations at 70 do you set the platter at, and what's your low setting?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-17-2007, 02:23 AM:

quote: Thomas Dieter
How does this setting work? Pins 12 and 14, are those the first 2 pin connections starting from the left if you were looking at the platter from the takeup side? How many rotations at 70 do you set the platter at, and what's your low setting?

In doing platter timings for the AW3(R) units, there are two settings that much be entailed: 1) - the mechanical settings and 2)-the electronic settings.

AW3R Manual

The mechanical setting is to have the filter wheel aligned with the photocell (and this is where a lot of mistimings come from if this procedure isn't followed) and how you align the filter wheel with the fotocell is to have the notch on the filter wheel aligned with the edge of the sensor photocell.

How the mechanical alignment is done is with a 3/32" long arm allen (or screwdriver) and with the end coverplate off, there is an allen adjustment screw on the end of the return arm actuator. By turning the allen adjusts the filter wheel to the photocell on the sensor.

The electronic settings are with the adjustments on the card(s) after the mechanical settings are completed..

With power off, with the control card door at the horizontal. you pull the motor card out of the slot, put the DigVOM leads into the farthest two holes (the first two holes in the slot going left to right). Turn on the platter and let the system stabilize for a minute. Then, with brain in socket, move the arm and have the notch in the arm to the 70 degree mark on the brain plate. Then you adjust the trimpot to the 70K ohm reading for proper LED brightness adjustment.

Motor speed settings is a completely different animal than from the above LED settings. This procedure is done (recommended) using a "platter tach" where at the 20 degree mark the platter should just barely creep (like 1 to 3RPM's), and at the 70 degree mark be 20RPM. The LOW pot is for that 20 degree setting and the HIGH put is for the 70 degree setting.

Some disregard that 70 degree setting and just open the arm all the way and as long as the RPM is over 25+RPM's, they call it good there.

Good luck, Thomas.. - Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-18-2007, 06:16 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Some disregard that 70 degree setting and just open the arm all the way and as long as the RPM is over 25+RPM's, they call it good there.

Thats basically the new procedure when you retrofit the new sensors in place. All thats left to set is the high/low speed adjust.

Mark

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 12-07-2007, 01:26 AM:

Here's something that I've not come across yet, and I think might have caught something early. I have 2 LED Trim Pots that are walking up and down in their ohms. Basicly, what I'm trying to say is when I set their intensity at 0.45Ω, one walks it way up to 0.50Ω and the other down to 0.40Ω and back over a period of about a minute. It never completely sits at a setting. This is the first time for this that I've seen.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-07-2007, 02:34 AM:

..and you can't go up to the 70 ohm setting on your VOM with the shutter at the correct mark on the braindisc?..sounds like a sensor photocell getting ready to go kaput, or variances in DC voltage to the LED making the sensor give you those readings.

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 12-07-2007, 01:28 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
...and you can't go up to the 70 ohm setting on your VOM with the shutter at the correct mark on the braindisc?..sounds like a sensor photocell getting ready to go kaput, or variances in DC voltage to the LED making the sensor give you those readings.

I'm using the setting described in first initial post of this thread. I does go up to 70 ohm, as i brought one of them down from 80, and brought the other up from 20 or so.

quote: Thomas Dieter
Volt Meter Setting 20M Ω
LED Intensity at 20º = 0.45Ω
At 20º motor barely moves or "growls"
At 70º 20 rotations per minute

Like you said Monte, I think I caught something that is about to go bad early on. I don't think I've ever seen this happen. Even after I walked away to check something else to let it settle, it was going 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 48, 49, 50, 49, 48, 47, 46, 45, 44, 45.... Completely random on when it would come back down or go up.

I did hear when setting the speed of the of those 2 decks the motor speeding up and slowing down over the course of timing them. I'll have to look around and see if I have any spare LED's sitting in a cabinet.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-07-2007, 02:30 PM:

....what you could do is start swapping around motor control cards then - see if the one card that the problem deck is associated with travels to another deck, and after you doing the complete LED intensitiy adjustments with that swapped card.

Those motor control cards can get funky as well..

Good luck - Monte

Posted by Thomas Dieter (Member # 2507) on 01-25-2008, 12:57 AM:

quote: Monte L. Fullmer
Sensor part (the older one) no. 192847-002 ... and stock a couple of these ..

Is there a difference in the setting of the Red LED settings, and the Green LED settings? Up until now, we've not had a problem with one of our platters that has 2 Red LEDs and 1 Green LED. The Green LED's calibrate fine, but the green ones just don't seem to have the ability to push 0.45Ω. Maximum I'm able to get out of it is 0.178Ω.

Is there a different setting for this LED?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-25-2008, 01:35 AM:

Sorry, Thomas - I can't answer that one since I'm ignorant on the new sensors. I haven't done a AW3R since 2002 when I was with REG and left them for a small circuit and now doing STRONG equipment, but for the few short years that I was with EDW's, learned quite the deal about Christie products.

I still once in a while, do work in a AW3, but the older ones and you don't know how bad I miss these Christies.

Maybe Mark will pop on and he can give you info on the green LED's

good luck - Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-25-2008, 08:28 AM:

The green LED's have a slower fade rate but they still do fade. I believe the CDS cells are also a tad bit more responsive to the green spectrum than red. There should be heat shrink tubing around the od of the LED so that just the tip of the LED peaks out.

Christie abandoned the old style cell in all its new platters starting about two years back. As far as I'm concerned the new sensor kit is the best thing thats happened to the AW-3. Now when an old style sensor fails I just install the kit. Its cheap too. No LED adjustment to do ... just high and low speed. Haven't had to go back and re-tweek any of the platters that have received them. The platters are also far more responsive because there is no memory like there is with the old CDS cells that were used. After installation just set the high speed for 24 rpm with the feed fingers all the way over on high and then at 20 degrees so the motor just doesn't creep. The instructions tell you to set it so it just creeps but setting it so it just doesn't creep seems to work better in the long run.

Mark

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 01-25-2008, 11:16 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

The platters are also far more responsive because there is no memory like there is with the old CDS cells that were used.

What do you mean by this?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-25-2008, 02:13 PM:

CDS cells are slow to respond to light changes... sort of like a capacitive effect of charge/discharge. You can see this slower change when setting up platters with the old cells in them. Thats why they say let them warm up for 15 min. before doing adjustments...

Mark

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 01-25-2008, 02:25 PM:

Ah. Yes, I have heard of this. I just didn't know that's what you meant by "memory."

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-25-2008, 02:39 PM:

Photographers who used to use CDS Cell type exposure meters also had to get used to this phenomonon so they could read the proper exposure. Just takes a little patience.

Mark

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-25-2008, 10:58 PM:

Speaking of AW3s... what is the concensus of opinion on the filter spring tension? I've been putting 3 turns on units I've rebuilt and it still seems like too much.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 01-26-2008, 07:56 AM:

I've used five turns and not had any problems. This was with the same spring that was already in there. If you're using a new spring, maybe they are stiffer.

I suppose someone could get a hold of a new axle assembly and unwind the filter to see how many turns they put on it at the factory.

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 01-28-2008, 09:10 PM:

I never count the turns. I just wind them so that the brain plate arm returns to home. I back off the tension until it fails to return all the way and then I add one turn to make it work. I find that the feed out is more reponsive to the position of the film when there isnt excessive spring tension.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-28-2008, 09:53 PM:

1.5 to 2 turns maximum seems to work fine. So the arm sweeps back in about 1 second or so... ys don't want it to snap back to stop. Too much tension and the arm and film will be fighting to pay out. Ya can tell when there is too much tension by the fact that the film wraps back around the PO head... moving the fingers to the left speeds it up... so the platter is timed right... but too much tension on the spring is keeping it from paying even steven. I think Brad covered this somewhere perhaps in the tips section...

Also... VERY IMPORTANT! Be sure the platter is absolutely level... use a sensitive level (not some piece of crap from Wal-Mart or Home Depot) to level one of the platter arms. If the platter happens to be leveled towards the full on position then the lightly wound return spring is going to have a hell of a time draging the filter assy back to stop position.

Mark

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 01-30-2008, 01:24 PM:

Cheers cheers - very good point, I have wasted many hours in the past before I considered this simple but very important concept.
[beer]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-30-2008, 02:25 PM:

...actually this leveling rule could go to all platter makes since the payout control arms are in the position to let an unlevel side affect its normal operation since that part of the brain has to be sensitive to film movement and position.