This is topic Oil and Oiling? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 01-03-2008, 10:09 PM:
 
I will probably have to check the oil on my Atlas/SuperSimplex when it arrives as I remember for a post I read, Simplexes are notorious for leaking oil. Where is the best place to get projector oil at the best price and what are some general tips on oiling and routine maintenance on these...and for that matter any other 35mm projectors? Thanks-Steve
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-03-2008, 11:11 PM:
 
Actually it IS NORMAL for a Super to drip somewhat.... Use 7 to 10 weight non-detergent oil in them. DO NOT USE TRANSMISSION FLUID... A SUPER IS DEFINATELY NOT DESIGNED FOR IT! Get Super Simplex oil in gallons from your nearest theater supply dealer. Don't over oil it either.... keep the intermittent oil level half way up the little round sight glasses when the projector IS NOT RUNNING. Three or four drops in each oil tube well before operating at the beginning of the day. Occasional use a couple of drops before you use it... run for 5 min or so after oiling to distribute the oil before running film through it.

P.S. You will also need a flexible spout oiler... Plews variety.... It will leak more than the projector [Eek!] . And thank god digital is here... no more projector oil [thumbsup] .

Mark
 
Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 01-04-2008, 05:24 AM:
 
Oh Mark!! I simply hate you for thanking Digital Cinema!! [Big Grin]
D Cinema [puke]
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-04-2008, 07:56 AM:
 
quote:
Oh Mark!! I simply hate you for thanking Digital Cinema!
Demetris.... I just love to shovel coal into the fire [Big Grin] .

Mark
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-04-2008, 07:59 AM:
 
Oddly enough...this part of Mark's "sense of humor." For even he doesn't have oil issues with his beloved Christie film projectors (sealed intermittent and all). Kinoton's FPXXE projectors also don't suffer from any oil issues nor the lossy image that digital projectors have. [Razz]
 
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-04-2008, 09:22 AM:
 
Actually a Regular Super and E7 and for that matter Century were designed to use a SAE20 non detergent oil
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-04-2008, 10:04 AM:
 
Call it what ever you want... but I admit that I just love settin you guys up [Big Grin] .

Actually I very definately change the oil in Ultramittents after about 3 to 5 years of use... based more on operating hours than any other factor, thats probably why I've not had one fail in over 10 years. And the close to 100 DP-70's I service certainly ALL have oil issues. One thing is for sure... Steve's customers will be crying the loudest as they haul their over-priced Kinotons to the scrap yard or set them up as lobby displays of the "old archaic equipment" they used to use.

I certainly won't be missing any of them in the very near "Digital" future.

Mark
 
Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 01-04-2008, 10:13 AM:
 
Mark, I'm curious as to what sort of oil issues you're having with the DP-70s.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-04-2008, 11:48 AM:
 
Nothing more than the normal seepage and normal oil changes.

Mark
 
Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 01-04-2008, 12:28 PM:
 
You silly old timers. You can just run both!

FP50Ds and a Barco. It's not uncommon for me to run some DLP trailers before a 35mm feature either, or vise-versa.
 
Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 01-04-2008, 07:21 PM:
 
Steve, there are a couple of old jokes that come to mind:

How can you tell that your Simplex is out of oil?
It stoped leaking.

Simplex wanted to build computers, but gave up, when they could not figure out how to make a computer leak oil.

Happy New Year, and have fun with your new Christmas goodie.
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-04-2008, 07:59 PM:
 
course, there was a way to recycle that dripped oil from those early Simplexes if you had that drip catch plate that was mounted inbetween the head and the soundhead - and put a catch can below the spigot at the end.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-04-2008, 09:03 PM:
 
....and then reinsert it into the Simplex! Louis
 
Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 01-04-2008, 10:22 PM:
 
Juz as soon as digital can be photographed at the molecular level, I'll haul that ol' Super to the antiques shop [Big Grin] . BTW HHHOW MUCH does one that there fancy DLP PRO jecter set ya back??? 50, 80 150K [Roll Eyes] I'm confused, SAE20 non-detergent oil? That sounds like motor oil?! I'm assuming there's a difference?
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-04-2008, 10:42 PM:
 
quote: Bruce Hansen
How can you tell that your Simplex is out of oil?
It stoped leaking.
I actually saw this happen a couple weeks ago. An XL had locked up in a small theatre, and had torn up the works all the way down to the reproducer. After I got everything operational again, the manager came in:

MGR: "Did you fix the oil pump?"

ME: "There wasn't anything wrong with the oil pump."

MGR: "Well, it stopped pumping oil."

ME: "That's because there wasn't any oil to pump."

It was bone dry.
So was the soundhead gearbox.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-04-2008, 11:18 PM:
 
quote: Steve Beverly
BTW HHHOW MUCH does one that there fancy DLP PRO jecter set ya back??? 50, 80 150K
Just about the same price as one of Mr Guttag's fancy E Series Kinoton booths...

Or... Several of our customers look at it this way....

It costs about 80 grand or more a year for salary and all the other taxes and BS associated with having 4 booth idiots (similar to the one mentioned in Tim's post) attempting to run your 6 to 8 screen theater. So eliminate them along with the stupid extra costs like in Tim's post above. With the simple addition of a Show Library the manager and assistant managers can easily handle the operation of an all digital cinema say up to the 8 screen level without alot of hassle... DLP projectors do not suffer from focus drift nor do they need the framing adjusted! In essence they can literally be run day in and day out unmanned! That 80 grand a year you would be spending on incompetant help is offsetting your DLP expenditure and in 6 to 8 years your gear is completely off set. Contrary to what some people arouund here think the daily operating expense of a DLP booth can be EXACTLY THE SAME as an equivelent film booth.... possibly slightly less. Since all that equipment you paid for is also a buisness operating expense there are other tax incentives that also make this route even more desriable to consider. Also eliminating the booth mongers brings more of the service back to the dealer where it really belongs.

Mark
 
Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 01-05-2008, 01:18 AM:
 
Yeah but the problem is digital technology is in constant flux, those 80 grand projectors might be worth 2 grand in 5 years and nothing in 7. There are projectors in theaters, as you are well aware of, that have been in use for 70 or more years and are still running perfectly, PLUS the image is much better on those old machine than the best DLP made. That's one of the reasons I bought a dallies projector, to check fine details, color, focus, etcetera, to see what the image REALLY looked like. I have digital editing software and a small digital projector, but I knew they would never give me what I needed. "Course now an 80 grand one might, I don't know but it's kinda academic, 'cause I don't have that kinda money for a projector, HELL I don't have money for a Century SA or even a Simplex XL, so I went with what I COULD afford and that's the problem with theaters. 80 grand is a LOT of money to lay out and then recoup and there's no real incentive to change because employee salaries are also deductible and from what Tim said it was the MANAGER that thought the oil pump was shot, that's the scary part.

If there IS one thing I've learn dealing with computers, they're just as easy to f*ck up as any other machine and, most of the time, much more difficult to figure out what wrong and repair it. There's no such thing as maintenance free machinery so NOTHING is gonna run day in and day out unmanned for any length of time and certainly not long enough to recoup the 80 grand initial cost.

But hey, you know FAR, FAR more than I do about projection so I would never presume to attempt to challenge your assertions and must bow to your experience and knowledge. If you say it would be better I'll just have to assume you are right. [Cool]
 
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-05-2008, 01:50 AM:
 
How are you "challenging" his assertions, though? He pointed out that in a multiplex you can save money by having less employees running the booth. Telling him that you personally won't save any money by switching and can't afford to switch doesn't even speak to the topic of his assertion.

Also, of course there will always be maintenance but if you have the same amount of $ spent on maintenance with less money on salary, you've obviously spent less money.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-05-2008, 09:07 AM:
 
quote: Chris Slycord
Also, of course there will always be maintenance but if you have the same amount of $ spent on maintenance with less money on salary, you've obviously spent less money.
Other than vehicle expense... employees are the next MOST EXPENSIVE thing for a buisness like a multiplex. If you are stuck with Union goys the expense is much much greater than the norm.

The other nice thing at least about the Christie projectors is that you can purchase an extended warranty on each machine in extra 2 year increments. Its also actually pretty reasonable in cost but the extra warranty must be quoted at the time of the factory quote and purchased with the order. The ZX's we just sold have 6 year warranties on them! I don't know if NEC or BARCO do this but at the minimal cost that it is running its worth doing it.

BTW... We just bought a high end 3-DLP Christie projector off of E-Bay for 500 bucks! This will go into our rental department and make us quite a bit of dough at local conventions.... there are only one or two other 3-dlp projectors here in SLC for rent and demand fairly high. So Steve... the high tech stuff IS out there on the cheap if you look hard enough.

Mark
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-05-2008, 11:57 AM:
 
Is a complete DLP installation still about $100k? If so, and if it lasts ten years, then it costs $10k/screen/year, not including maintenance and service contracts and such.

If you have a 10-plex, run 80 hours per week, and pay your operators $20/hour, the labor cost is $8k/screen/year.

If you make the assumption that a DLP system a) no longer requires an operator (since absolutely _every_ feature that you would ever want to book is available in the format, bulbs never need to be changed, nothing requires monitoring or regular adjustment, etc....right?) and b) is no more expensive to maintain than 35mm (cost of service contract and parts), then you are still paying more than $2k/screen/year extra.

This does make the assumption that the 35mm equipment is already bought and paid-for, but if we assume that a 35mm system that would be commonly found in a multiplex costs about $30k new (not including sound) and lasts for 30 years, it's still only $1k/screen/year.

I still don't see how the economics work (and how many theatres pay $20/hour for their regular operators?) for a mutiplex situation, unless the cost of a DLP system has come way down.

Admittedly, I can see how it would probably improve projection quality in may multiplexes, which is sad.
 
Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 01-05-2008, 12:21 PM:
 
So Mark, when all the film equipment is gone and DLP or whatever comes next is all in and no more maintenance, repairs or installations are needed, what will you be doing? HA! I believe you'll be busier than ever. When electronic projectors get many thousands of hours on them and are as numerous as film machines the problems will be just as many as film machines and not as readily fixed.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-05-2008, 12:31 PM:
 
quote: Scott Norwood
Is a complete DLP installation still about $100k? If so, and if it lasts ten years, then it costs $10k/screen/year, not including maintenance and service contracts and such.
No! The best gear can be installed for about 80K per booth, less in quantity(obviously). There are so many other things to factor in(or out) related to employees if you look at the big picture and it varies by State... things like sick time, lost work time, payroll expenses, taxes involved over and above the salary you pay... with Union dudes you also pay half the years salary into the union retirement fund IN ADDITION to the normal wages, then there is all the hassle involved in employee scheduling and the expense involved by management there, unemployment taxes, equipment that breaks down because the paid employees can't or don't know how to maintain it properly... like in Tim's post... I see more of that expense in my travels around than all other types of failures! The list literally goes on and on. Believe me if you could get a decent union operator for 8 grand a year don't you think the unions would still be running all the booths actross the USA? So the 80K is is the amount of offset that two of our customers arrived at more or less independently of each other. One has about 80 screens and the other about 130. The latter chain has more trouble because of booth people comming and going than any other chin I've ever delt with... booth employees change about every two weeks there, they discover quickly that McDonalds pays better and the charm of the archaic film gear wears off quickly on all but the biggest of AV CLub fans.
quote: Bill Enos
So Mark, when all the film equipment is gone and DLP or whatever comes next is all in and no more maintenance, repairs or installations are needed, what will you be doing? HA! I believe you'll be busier than ever. When electronic projectors get many thousands of hours on them and are as numerous as film machines the problems will be just as many as film machines and not as readily fixed.
I don't see myself as being any more or less busy but at least the repairs will HAVE TO BE DONE by competant technicians. I can't speak for BARCO and NEC but the folks at Christie have kept the actual booth service time down to a minimum over what I've seen of the other two brands.... Christie's units are much more ergonomically laid out and its incredibly easy to replace any part including the Light Engine, BARCO's light engine is also very easy to replace but BARCO's gear suffers from other major quirks including parts being harder to get than either NEC or Christie. The Christie service manual actually states the replacemnt time for many of the assembleys and or parts and after having been to their training class I would agree with the time assessments they give. How fast parts can be gotten is strictly up to the manufacturer...BARCO is by far the very worst here... but when a dealer has several hundred of the same units in the field its certainly wise for him to carry the major parts on his shelf as the norm. Otherwise you might be down a day at best while waiting for a major part... The AIX/Carmike agreement states a maximum of 4 hours down time before a projector/server is back up and running... how closley they've been able to adhere to that I can't say but a day at worst case would be the norm.... again not much different than a film system.

P.S. With a booth full of the same gear you also have access to multiple other parts borrowed from other projectors/servers to aid in diagnostics if needed... however all of the projectors and servers have extensive "log reports" available to aid both the technician and manufacturer in diagnosing all sorts of problems. Eventually, experience for all will grow over time and we will resume our "instinct diagnostics" ability like we've always done.

Mark
 
Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 01-05-2008, 03:30 PM:
 
I'll attest to BARCO's slow parts response---about 2 weeks, no shortage of "quirks" either. I couldn't imagine having to rely
on this thing for every show.

[ 01-05-2008, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Bill Enos ]
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-05-2008, 06:17 PM:
 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
booth employees change about every two weeks there, they discover quickly that McDonalds pays better and the charm of the archaic film gear wears off quickly on all but the biggest of AV CLub fans.
(plus, the fun factor wears off real quick as well when the work atmosphere and company operations expose themselves as actual grindhouse operations..worse than McD's and other 'choke and puke' burger joints could ever be..)
 
Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 01-05-2008, 11:35 PM:
 
I don't know about that, Have you ever WORKED at Micky Ds? I did a stint in collage at both a Taco Bell and a burger joint, (I forget which one, Carl's Jr. I think) and I think I woulda preferred a medieval toucher dungeon or 6 weeks at a combo insurance seminar/Jerry Falwell bible study camp to these chambers of horror! [Eek!] Mark, IF I'da seen that 500 buck Christie DLP, you'd had some competition in the bidding, just so I coulda had a high end DLP! Those are NO DOUBT far and few between but I WILL keep an eye open for them, what other DLPs are comperable to the Chistie?
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-06-2008, 03:09 AM:
 
quote: Steve Beverly
Have you ever WORKED at Micky Ds?
(Nope, but did a month's stint at an "Arsenic Circle" (Arctic Circle) and thought that was a joke of an occupation..)
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-06-2008, 01:17 PM:
 
quote: Steve Beverly
I don't know about that, Have you ever WORKED at Micky Ds?
Definately not! Nor would I(feed that crap to the public!)... but the thing is that they PAY MORE than the majority of theaters around the Mountain States do. The Mikey D's in West Yellowstone, MT pays $15.00 an hour to start! Many in Wyoming also do because everyone there has either moved away or gone to work for Haliburton for 100 grand a year. Many FF places in Wyoming only have the drive throughs open due to lack of help.

Monte.... "Aresnic Circle" I gotta remember that one.... [Big Grin] Indeed they are!

Mark
 
Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 01-06-2008, 05:05 PM:
 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
It costs about 80 grand or more a year for salary and all the other taxes and BS associated with having 4 booth idiots (similar to the one mentioned in Tim's post) attempting to run your 6 to 8 screen theater. So eliminate them along with the stupid extra costs like in Tim's post above. With the simple addition of a Show Library the manager and assistant managers can easily handle the operation of an all digital cinema say up to the 8 screen level without alot of hassle
A problem with the math - a significant number of 6-8 screen buildings are already run by managers, in these the only "benefit" is the manager will end up paying even less attention to the presenation than they do now because they will not have to go into the booth to start the shows. (Please note that I know that everyone here cares, but there are many out there that either don't care or don't know any better)

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Contrary to what some people arouund here think the daily operating expense of a DLP booth can be EXACTLY THE SAME as an equivelent film booth.... possibly slightly less
Costs are pretty much a wash if you keep a staff running the booh - we saved a lot of payroll at our 18 screens where we used to have 2 booth operators per busy shift, now we never run more than 1 . . . . . our 10 screen only saw moderate savings . . . . . overall our savings would not come close to a 10 year payback of $80,000 each.

quote:
DLP projectors do not suffer from focus drift nor do they need the framing adjusted! In essence they can literally be run day in and day out unmanned!
I think there still needs to be someone looking at the presenation with a qualified eye to ensure every customer gets a good show - what if lights don't go down? what if there are amp or speaker problems? what if the focus does drift? what if the lamp starts to flicker? Who changes the lamp? What about weekly content ingestions and transfers - who double checks to make sure all content is ready to play? Who calls the distributor for KDMs if they don't arrive?

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
incompetant help
There in lies the issue - why are they accepting substandard help? If the job requires more skill then they should be paying a wage comensurate with the duties.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Also eliminating the booth mongers brings more of the service back to the dealer where it really belongs.
While I beleive most dealers definitely give excellent service, the service is reactionary - i.e. someone at the theatre has to notice there is an issue and call - not to mention a lot of minor issues will go unrepaired due to the desire to save money and wait for a tech's normal PM visit to have it fixed. I'd rather pay someone to be proactive in keeping every presentation as good as possible and call for service immediately when something needs the attention of someone more qualified.
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-06-2008, 05:42 PM:
 
quote: David Zylstra
If the job requires more skill then they should be paying a wage comensurate with the duties.
..and this topic above has been slammed, beaten, swung, tormented, and ripped around in many topics in the "Ground level" forum... - which sounds that working in this theatre industry has really lost its "fun factor" in this generation.

Gee, let's get back on topic by following monthly or bi-annual procedures in keeping oil levels at their prime and needed oil changes for our dearly beloved Simplexes (and Cine V4's were noted as leakers as well) and other oil based, gear driven machines.

-Monte
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-06-2008, 05:51 PM:
 
quote: David Zylstra
There in lies the issue - why are they accepting substandard help? If the job requires more skill then they should be paying a wage comensurate with the duties.
Well, things out here are quite different from the much higher unemployed Michigan area which is at 7.7%(2007)... Out here you're lucky to get who you can... if you can. Unemployment in Utah is just 2.8% and Wyoming 2.9%(2007). Help is scarce to non-existant in some areas of Wyoming and good help is a once in a while occurance. You could offer to pay 15 or more bucks an hour and they're still goin to get paid way way more at Haliburton or by some other gas exploration firm. All in all its a very different scenerio here than areas with high unemployment where there are plentyful amounts of job seekers. Wyoming is probably the worst as far as getting any help at all.... in fact the younger generation if not working for the Haliburtons are moving away or going to school in other States. Its because of all this that Digital makes huge sense for several of our customers.

With the aid of a Show Library ingestion can be done leisurely any time you get a digital print in. Transfers can be scheduled to occur over night or in between shows... what ever is convenient. It takes half real time to transfer over the theater network to the appropriate screen, multi screen transfers are also possible but it slows things down. Also with the push by a number of distributers to get rid of USB drives and switch to hot pluggables the ingestion time will be drastically shortened. Ingestion is really the least of the problem in a 6 to 8 screener. One thing the theaters involved usually have is ample management so having the management cover ingestion and show buildup-scheduling is more of a doable than with film. The way Dolby integrates all their pieces into an entire ethernet based system allows this to happen much much more easily than a Doremi based system... and much much more reliably. As for lamp changes... we already do all the lamp changes for one of the larger chains... big deal and no hassle really... we get paid for doing it. In changing lamps the booth mongers would be exposing themselves to too much danger to attempt it and the liability factor is considerably greater. Lamps are reliable these days... I can't remember when I had a new Christie lamp fail within warranty.... its been probably 10 or more years. Ushio makes OSRAM's short gap lamps too so the reliability is going to be the same. If a manager has to change a lamp at least the Lamp Loc feature on the Christies automatically tweeks the lamp to proper X-Y-Z positions in less than 4 min. Again, with digital... at least Christies stuff there is a better chance for getting the lamp in and adjusted correctly than in a film system that requires human interface.

I agree that having people monitoring IN the booth is a good thing but in many instances those in the booths cause more damage then they do good. I can't tell you how many of Tim's instances I tend to... Management could also do daily checks of the projectors... Its easy enough to throw an RP-40 clip on screen and check focus... and if they don't there IS LESS CHANCE of focus drift then with any film based system... I wonder what the Nationwide percentage of film based systems actually have the focus ever looked at during a show... I'm sure the percentage is very low. At any rate these and many other reasons makes digital much more favorable for several of our customers.
Mark
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 01-06-2008, 08:47 PM:
 
I was channel-hopping and Shop NBC or whatever it's called was pushing Mitsubishi rear-projection DLP TVs. They had like a 73" model for about $2600 or something like that, I forget. Anyway they showed a picture of a Christie DLP D-Cinema projector and claimed the Mitsubishi DLP "Is the same thing!!!!".

So clearly prices on D-Cinema equipment have fallen dramatically. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-06-2008, 10:20 PM:
 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Out here you're lucky to get who you can...You could offer to pay 15 or more bucks an hour and they're still goin to get paid way way more at Haliburton or by some other gas exploration firm.
Yes, and I'll bet housing and other cost of living expenses are proportionately higher, too. [Razz]
 
Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 01-06-2008, 10:37 PM:
 
[QUOTE]
I was channel-hopping and Shop NBC or whatever it's called was pushing Mitsubishi rear-projection DLP TVs. They had like a 73" model for about $2600 or something like that, I forget. Anyway they showed a picture of a Christie DLP D-Cinema projector and claimed the Mitsubishi DLP "Is the same thing!!!!".

So clearly prices on D-Cinema equipment have fallen dramatically. [Big Grin]"

[QUOTE]

Or they were just lying....Not that THAT ever happens on a shopping channel. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-07-2008, 07:37 AM:
 
quote: Steve Beverly was the last to post
So clearly prices on D-Cinema equipment have fallen dramatically.
They have at least on Christie projectors... again they're selling more projectors per month than the other companys are selling during a quarter. About a year ago that CP-2000 cost you 85K with the lenses the ZX costs you about 54 to 56K depending on how you want to do scope and its able to cover 89% of the screens out there. The servers are extra of course.

quote: Tim Reed
Yes, and I'll bet housing and other cost of living expenses are proportionately higher, too.
Not in Utah where the housing market is fairly reasonable... Utah also was not hit with all the high number of forclosures that many states were hit with. In Wyoming its all together a different story though... even in a dump of a town like Rawlins that 70,000 dollar house 5 yers ago is now 200,000+. Apartments are also scarce as hens teeth and new homes are being built slowly... just a few apartments here and there going up. In a number of areas they have what are called "Man Camps"... large areas with row after row of 5th wheel trailers parked for living quarters... resembles a truck stop Tim! Wyoming suffered from the oil shale dilemma (bust) back in the 80's... folks there are much more careful about the oil/gas boom this time around.

Mark
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-07-2008, 09:37 AM:
 
To clarify some inaccuracies that Mark is putting out there...while there are deals done for some exhibitors based on volume. A Christie CP2000ZX without a lamp or lens lists $68K...yes that is list but the dealer discounts are nowhere near what they are on film equipment. Add to that your lens starting at $8K list for the "cheapest" ones, the DCinema version of the xenon lamps ($1.3 - $2K) and things add up pretty fast. For an anamorphic add another $16K-$17K depending on motorizing. The prices Mark is posting is BELOW dealer cost for a working system.

For a working CP2000 system with a 4K lamp lists for close to $109K...again, street prices will vary. At least Mark didn't give a price below dealer on this one though one isn't going to live well on that.

Mark, I'm asking you to stop putting out "street prices" on equipment...as a dealer or one that works for a dealer, such pricing should be kept confidential...just like it says on the price lists. Let the end users discuss street prices. What is worse is that you always seem to err in a manner that moves your apparent agenda.

And even my right-priced Kinoton E projectors are a bargain compared to your soon-to-be-obsolete digital stuff.

Steve
 
Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-07-2008, 10:08 AM:
 
Is there a P.M. schedule to oil the blowers in the Christie digital projectors which I saw in one location running 24 hours a day. [Smile] Dealer pricing on Digital is very, very slim compared to traditional film.....but sales of traditional film equipment is almost a non-issue.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-07-2008, 01:20 PM:
 
Well, I guess your overhead is alot higher out east Steve! Thats to be expected I guess. I don't know a dealer that sells or even discusses list pricing! I prefer to discuss things right at what we'd sell it for and will continue to do so. Its fair and honest!! Keep in mind that our pricing is not the lowest either... it is fair pricing though which is to some extent governed by our lower overead. To be fair why don't you also cry in this thread about the even lower printed pricing from that Miami Equipment Dealer... So what if we started selling on E-Bay Steve... would you also cry at the pricing there? That is hardly unfair... it may be competitive though... sorry [Roll Eyes] . Also tell me, do you cry when Strong sells direct? Are they being competitive? Definately not... they are sticking their dealers in the ass at the same time when they do that. I think your arrogance speaks for itself.

Gee Steve... Your statement on obsolescence are nothing but hearsay... You have no idea nor does anyone else here know when this gear will approach obsolescence... actually talking about obsolescence... film certainly is, just ask Kodak, they make the stuff. THEY WILL tell you that it is. You accuse me of selling stuff thats going obsolete but didn't all your CP-200's just get put on the obsolescence list at Dolby?

E-Machine's are more likely to see a servo drive motor go obsolete than any other single part... thank China! Motor companies are dropping like flies because of China or having their stuff produced there and alot of it is very marginal in quality. This obsolescence ting appened to both Westrex and RCA... and thats a fact not hearsay. I wonder how long it'll be before Kinoton's is. BTW.... Don't I remember Larry Shaw saying they cost 35K to replace.... [Big Grin] At least while they make em I guess [Big Grin] .

quote: Richard Fowler
Is there a P.M. schedule to oil the blowers in the Christie digital projectors which I saw in one location running 24 hours a day.
Definately not in either the CP-2000S or te ZX! All motors are ball bearing... most of the fans are muffin fans... in fact the ZX uses a rather high end Pabst blower assembly. For the last several years even the console blowers have been all ball bearing.

Mark
 
Posted by Mike Perju (Member # 1482) on 01-07-2008, 02:58 PM:
 
Mark, the CP-200 enjoyed 25+ years of excellent reputation. I'm not sure if Dolby's CP-650 or any other video projector would last even half that long.

All I'm saying is that enjoy my toys that I grow old with. I love my Hasselblad CM body, 24 years old now, with another 24 years to go. Film is not obsolete, because there is nothing that comes close in digital imaging (yet). Leaf's new back for 2 1/4 cameras is still not a full 2 1/4 x 2 1/4 and has several major shortfalls at $20k a pop.

If people were willing to train their booth operators, film mated with digital sound would provide the best presentation for most of my forseeable lifetime. By switching to digital, we are going to sink below the quality marins of the new still digital imaging market. All it will do is potetially save rich people (the Studios) money, make other people money (George Lucas), while providing the oblivious public an inferior looking experience. Oh and yes, only trained professionals will service this ever renewed equipmnet, which is truly a good thing.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-07-2008, 04:52 PM:
 
quote:
If people were willing to train their booth operators,
You're more than welcome to come down and train them but you'll be training new kids every two weeks.

Kodak as stated that it does indeed consider film obsolete....They are scuryingalong with oters to develop new digital tecnologies so they can survive. Don't forget that film didn't look so good in it's infancy... With the exception of a handful of screens digital "looks" far superior to film and the light from a digital projector has no equal, it is tops in all aspects.
 
Posted by Mike Perju (Member # 1482) on 01-07-2008, 06:10 PM:
 
Mark, digital may have smoother transitions between trailers, and no lab splices, but color wise (never mind compression artifacting) it looks no better than those disgusting jpeg digital picture frames that Walmart sells.

I admit however I have only seen the Cristie and the Barco at work, so other machines may be better. I may also be pickier than some... after all most people can't tell the difference between traditional and the Frontier minilab still prints.
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-07-2008, 06:17 PM:
 
quote: Tim Reed
Yes, and I'll bet housing and other cost of living expenses are proportionately higher, too.
Yep, from West "Jellystone", to down south to Jackson Hole, WYO and surrounding areas is one on the most massive tourist traps and havens for the rich and famous..almost like SunValley, Idaho
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-07-2008, 07:58 PM:
 
Monte... Sun Valley is a dot of activity compared to whats been going on in Eastern Idaho, Jackson Hole, and Starr Valley. One thing hilarious about Sun Valley is that it's become so expensive that even the Millionaires are leaving there and building down in Hailey or further south.

Mark
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-07-2008, 09:04 PM:
 
I'm not crying Mark...you just seem to like to spout BS nowadays...possibly just to get a rise out of people. Your discussion of street pricing is very disreputable as a dealer; you should be ashamed but I'm sure you are not. To make matters worse, you clearly are not looking at the prices when you spout your BS...I was, in my response.

As to the CP200...there is very little about it that is obsolete as it was built on mostly stale and multi-sourced technology...something your DCinema machines can not make the same claim. Of all of the used CP200's I've installed...its age, support and such have been made VERY clear to their owners and amble spares (including an entire spare CP200, in one facility) to stave off any truely "no longer available" items. If a suitable non-discontinued alternative was available, it would have been used. Any time one of types of facilities I tend to install purchases equipment, "used" is not generally allowed. But gee you mean you are going to choose a processor that has been out of production by 14-15 years as one that a manufacturer has discontinued support? In fact, it depends on the module. Even their brand new DMA8 Plus has support for the CP200. Bad choice to pick on. How long after the CP2000 goes out of production will Christie stop supporting it? Care to predict? Do you think it will make it 14-years? There are more CP2000s than CP200s.

As to soon-to-be-obsoleted technology...I guess you stick your head in the sand and not see how fast the technology comes and goes in Video. For all your past experience in semiconductors and equipment repair, you should know about the downside to single-source parts...they disappear fast. Only a moron wouldn't realize that 2K DCinema is DCinema in its infancy...it is a mere 1/2 the resolution of the worst common 35mm format (1.85). One would hope that an emerging technology would continue to improve upon itself to the point it is indeed notably superior to home technology. It clearly isn't there yet. So the fine folks buying it today are buying "Beta 2" equipment with 1.3K being Beta 1. Those machines gave a whopping 4-years of life and the movie industry won't even supply them with content...it isn't like they got worse than when they were "just about as good as film". It is a bad trend. I will give TI some credit here...they have seemingly supported the older units. So go ahead, put in your 1/2 as good a resolution with your inferior contrast and lacking color...knock yourself out. It is a whole lot better than when it started and it does look real good (at a distance) but it hopefully will get at least twice as good as it is now.

As for film being obsolete...it is THE storage medium for born-digital movies...it is the only medium that anyone in the archiving business feels will have the lasting power at this time. That is well documented. Film remains a cheaper presentation medium to digital...no matter how you want to dance and mislead on the numbers.

Speaking of misleading/misquoting...$35K for an intermittent? Sorry pal...a whole machine is somewhat less than that...even with a 47% price change due to the crappy $$$. They are more than a geneva movement but not astronomically more. So far, I haven't had one fail yet...I guess they aren't using your Chinese motors. In any event...China does not mean bad...China means you need to specify the grade of the part you want...they have from cheap to great. In fact, Kinoton has just upped the quality of the machine with their new "Premier" version of the intermittent which is yet more precise and the price of the machine didn't go up...hmmm much better value for the money...a 4-5 times improvement in steadiness that was already many time better than mechanical counterparts. Resolution is also increased due to steadiness (35-PA is going to need new resolution targets to measure this one).

So how much is that imager in your DCinema machines? Parts costs are, across the board, more expensive for DCinema...and I'm comparing this to top-of-the-line machines...compared to good mechanical machines...the spread gets even greater.

Light uniformity? Just how bad do you set up your film systems? Even the DCinema specs are not much, if any different than for Film. There should be VERY little difference between film and DCinema...I seem to get uniform results on both film and DCinema. Where DCinema is a clear winner though is color temperature. Not because it is inherently better but because one can effectively "EQ" the light to provide a very predictable and constant result. One could filter the film system too (Schneider even makes a kit to do this). But yes...with DCinema...use your meter to read the native light...key in the readings and Wham...you are at D65. DCinema definitely DOES have its merits and I look forward to when it is truly superior. But something must be flawed with it when you need to exaggerate the truth about it.

Mark, I don't care that you are in love with DCinema (or anyone else)...that isn't the point...but mislead, exaggerate the truth to the point that things are more fiction than true should be beneath you.
 
Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 01-07-2008, 09:59 PM:
 
Just a side note, I was born in Rock Springs, Wyoming and lived there until I was 11 or 12 so when Mark mentioned Rawlins I flashed back. Strange, strange place. [eyes]
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-07-2008, 10:57 PM:
 
I service the 10 screen there twice a year!! The theaters downtown are closed... one is a church now. The FF Restaurants in Rock Springs are so short of help that only the drive thru's are open. Homes... well... out of sight...

Mark
 
Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 01-08-2008, 02:36 AM:
 
Is the Realto still open? I sure hope so. It's my Cinema Paradiso. It was where I saw my first film in a theater (at least the first one I remember)Robinson Crusoe on Mars. STILL love that movie. At the time I thought it was so realistic! Still kinda do if the planet wasn't Mars. [Cool]
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-08-2008, 03:03 AM:
 
[Eek!] and I used to take care of the ROCK and the CINEMA downtown 11 yrs ago - those PRO35 "boat anchors" hanging on the front of CH20 consoles with AW-2 platters. (And you talk about staff/mgmt issues those theatres had..... [Eek!] )

I couldn't convince those kids on how to run a PRO correctly-for if you did, those machines were pretty quiet to run. BUT, listening is one of their weak points let alone caring. Only thing they cared about is how much they could steal and get away with it.

Dumb kids that would run the CINEMA would crank a new bulb up to max just to get more light out when all it needed was a mirror adjustment. Bulb was black after only 500 hrs on it.

..and had the same probs at the Twin in Green River...

-Monte
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-08-2008, 07:58 AM:
 
Actually ROck SPrings and Green Rover are not problem locations any more. Musta been a piss poor employer that was running them when you worked there Monte.

No Rialto any more....

Mark
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-08-2008, 01:27 PM:
 
[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 01-08-2008, 07:52 PM:
 
[Frown] Oh well, here's too her, May she rest in piece [beer]
 




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