quote: "John Walsh"

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Be glad it's a sub, not a HF driver, which is usually (though not always) harder to get at!

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quote: Ross Oba

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It is in one of our two largest auditoriums.

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quote: Ross Oba

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The subwoofer is JBL if I'm not mistaken.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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wouldn't 5.0 being loud enough or not loud enough be determined by the size of the auditorium? I can't run my theaters at 7.0 because it is just to loud in our theaters.

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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If you set each theater to the standard at 7.0 and 84DB it is louder to the ear in smaller theaters than in larger theaters no matter that they are set the same.

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-19-2008, 02:35 PM:
 
Ron is absolutely incorrect. I can interlock a movie between a very large auditorium with an 80+ screen and walk across the hall to one with a 20-something foot screen and the apparent volume to the ears sounds the same, and both play perfectly fine at 7 on the fader...provided the systems were set up properly in the first place (which most cinema sound systems aren't).

Ron's problem is that most often in multiplexes I see the smaller theaters "cheapen out" on the quality of the gear, ending up with harsh-sounding rooms (which is often considered "louder" by many). I also see those small auditoriums tend to get rushed with a "good enough" attitude during the installation and calibration. Remember too that the rolloff has to be altered slightly depending on the size of the room.

There is far more to a sound system than just setting a level.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-19-2008, 04:24 PM:
 
Some people are going to think 7 is too loud no matter how good it sounds. I don't mind listening to movies at 7 in our theatre but my wife thinks that's too loud.

quote: Ron Funderburg

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No sub wolfer or week sub wolfer

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But is it "nosy?"
 

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Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 01-19-2008, 05:18 PM:
 

quote: Ron Funderburg

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If you set each theater to the standard at 7.0 and 84DB it is louder to the ear in smaller theaters than in larger theaters no matter that they are set the same.

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quote:

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Not trying to be argumentative here but the standard is really to loud in smaller theaters and just fine in larger! The standard is more to insure each speaker is at the same volume output than the general level of sound in the theater. Equalization on the other hand is to insure that each frequency is the same level as the others with a roll off on the high end!

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No, the tech that was setting up the rooms had no idea of what he was doing.
A correctly equalized screen is confortable at 7.0 (or around 7.0) and there will be NO difference in fader settings between a 1000 seats screen and a 100 seats screen.
This assuming that the sound system is correctly dimensioned and the acoustic treatment well done.
Ciao

Marco
 

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Posted by Ross Oba (Member # 3433) on 01-19-2008, 05:51 PM:
 
I went back today to check it out and it looks like it was blown. But now I am wondering if it may have been punched out by someone because I have never seen a blown subwoofer before. The way it looked was it was torn on the left edges and then there was another hole towards the center of it. Pardon my lack of technical words. If it was blown, would it be blown outward and not just torn and oriented inward?
 

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Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 01-19-2008, 06:20 PM:
 
WARNING Jargon ahead:
A speaker blown out in the traditional sense is usually damaged from within. The voice coil near the magnet at the rear of the cone melts and no longer sustains accurate excursions.

BASICALLY:
Sounds like someone kicked it out. If you blew it by sending to much signal to it, it would not create the large holes in the cone you described.
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 01-19-2008, 06:22 PM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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I also see those small auditoriums tend to get rushed with a "good enough" attitude during the installation and calibration.

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I can't count the number of theater openings I've witnessed where the building was open for weeks before the auditoriums could even be chained or EQed. Set Dolby tone and go. I guess the simple fact that the place even opened is "Good Enough".

This, of course, means that when the tech does finally get around to half-ass EQing the system, the entire A-chain has been forgotten. This is why 90% of auditoriums out there run at 4.5 on the fader and sound like grandma's hearing aid.

Can you tell that this subject really pisses me off?
 

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Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 01-19-2008, 06:36 PM:
 
A blown HF speaker will frequently have physical damage to the diaphragm.



A [sub]woofer, as Mike suggested, is more likely to have suffered driver damage (over-driving) where the internal parts of the driver have been forced beyond the mechanical limits. If the internal components have locked up, then [gently] pushing the cone will result in resistance rather than the normal "give".

Some common causes of driver damage would include an amp that is overpowering the woofer or an amp that is clipping.

Damage to the cone is more likely to occur from some physical or environmental cause, such as the janitors blowing trash around, someone poking/sticking/kicking it, or rotting away from operating in a poor environment for a long time.
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 01-19-2008, 06:44 PM:
 
Okay I have become a aware that I made a few mistypes in my one post. The sound should be the same (though smaller theaters seem louder and yes often due to cheaper equipment).

Poor technicians should be strung up by their thumbs and whipped with wet noodles until they promise not be so bad anymore! I was trying to say that EQing is for individual speakers and not sure if I made that clear. Yes the standard is 85DB not 84 sorry! If all speakers are set to 85DB (wait surrounds are set just a wee lower and subs are 90DB on DTS systems don't remember on Dolby) then no matter where you sit the sound should be the same; however, any near empty theater will sound louder than any near full theater.

We turn our systems up to 7.0 if are 3/4 full or fuller! We run at 6.0 below and turn down on smaller crowds if we get a complaint it is to loud. I ignore you people wanting it louder unless it is only young folk in the theater and I never run above 7.5!

My most common complaint from folk my age is that is just to darn loud! Well unless like me they are old rocker's and then it just isn't loud enough darn it!

Never EQ or set levels with a person in the theater or theater door open as it affects the levels of the pink nose you are reading! Okay now I hope there are no errors in this one but I probable made a few!

Oh did say that bad tech's should be held under water until they promise to learn their jobs?
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-19-2008, 06:51 PM:
 
Sad thing about some techs is that they only do what you only needed done real quick, or sell you what they want you to have, then take the money - to get out of "Dodge City" as fast as they can.

quote:

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My most common complaint from folk my age is that is just to darn loud!

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quote: Ron Funderburg

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any near empty theater will sound louder than any near full theater

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quote:

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however, any near empty theater will sound louder than any near full theater.

We turn our systems up to 7.0 if are 3/4 full or fuller! We run at 6.0 below and turn down on smaller crowds if we get a complaint it is to loud. I ignore you people wanting it louder unless it is only young folk in the theater and I never run above 7.5!

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Actually, I partially agree. In my experience IF ACOUSTIC IS GOOD (cinema chairs absorbs sound if you don't have the old wood style! ) the difference between FULL-EMPTY is not more that 0.5 point. I heard of a guy raising the sound +1.5 point when the theater is full: this means very very poor sound acoustic or very poor projectionist's ears!

However, trust Brad: one subwoofer is very inadequate, for every theater's size... Particularly if it's driven by a big amplifier, with no limiters engaged.
More, a well designed sound system is very reliable. I like to show movies to 7 (or so) and in many years never replaced a driver or a woofer in my theaters.

Ciao
Marco
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-19-2008, 09:36 PM:
 
On the trailer volume issue: wasn't there, at one time, a small circuit or PCB design that was tied in with the automation and driven by cues, that could lower the volume down during trailer runs by a the one cue, then on another cue, swing the volume back up when the feature kicks in?
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 01-19-2008, 09:51 PM:
 
Monte Smart makes (or made) a unit called afterburner that kept the sound from peaking up above a certain point don't know if it worked or not. There are several automation systems that you can set different levels for previews and show! We do it the old fashioned way with the little round knob on the front of the processor! But then my bosses are cheap to buy automation units! Opps I didn't type that did I?
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-19-2008, 10:07 PM:
 
I've found several loose speaker installations as a result of this movie... Baffles and speakers need to be seriously fastened down to play this film back in uncompressed digital!!! I think by the time therun is over there will be alot more damage done... this film gives new meaning to what a machine gun fire, tank fire and a 30 story tall monster stomping around town should sound like...
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-19-2008, 10:12 PM:
 
This is one simple solution I used to implement. Nowadays processors such as the CP500 and CP650 can simply have different fader settings hard coded to the buttons. So for example, you could set up button 11 or U1 or whatever you like to be Dolby Digital with a lower fader setting of which your automation would pulse to for trailers, and then pulse normally to format 10 at a higher fader setting for the feature. This of course requires your tech to actually lift a work for an extra 10 minutes, so good luck if you have a lazy one.

Also remember there is absolutely nothing wrong with running trailers in good old fashioned MONO. I think most people hear the idea and freak saying "no way will I run trailers in mono", but it is quite effective and every processor can do it, every processor has a "mono trim" control and the tech only need to give the minimal effort of moving only one wire from the automation to enable it. Try running your trailers in mono and watch your volume complaints during the feature (running in digital of course) be greatly lowered.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-19-2008, 10:14 PM:
 
The Panastereo CSP-1200 also does the same level remembering routine. I can't remember if the JSD-80 does that or not...

Mark
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-20-2008, 03:03 AM:
 
Brad, would your mod trick work with CP55 units as well? If so, what would be the wiring config for these processors? For, I've got 18 of these old monsters to babysit and I would think it would be worth it do to do this mod to these processors.

thx-Monte
 

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Posted by Peter David Bruce (Member # 4447) on 01-20-2008, 07:29 AM:
 
At our site we are running 3x cp650's and 3x cp45's. Unfortunately I wasnt in the company when it was last calibrated by our tech (hes one of the good ones tho!) however we have to run all our screens at volume 5. some a little lower!

for the 3 larger screens (capacity between 230 and 300), we use the 650. for our smaller screens (capacity between 104-185)we have the 45's.

on the three larger screens we have 2 subs. one got booted in screen one by a group of lads, and has since been replaced. We cannot run any of our films louder than 5 without it become very hard on the ears. I can imagine for the large 1000-seat auditoriums of larger cinemas volume 7 is fine, but in this cinema, id only max it to 6. (and that would only be when print checking)

so... i shall observe when they come to do the 2008 calibrations. im sure something isnt right.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-20-2008, 10:10 AM:
 
Brad & Marco just about covered it. 1 sub is worthless; 2 is a minimum.. You will surely blow the single unit since it cannot couple to the room, especially without a THX sound wall.

Old rule of thumb: if you move any 1/3 octave control more than 1/4 turn or if you use a total of more than 6, you are over-EQ-ed.

Another hint: in a poor room, you have complaints of "too loud" you can reduce the subwoofer from +10 db to +5 db. In effect you are compensating for poor mixes. Less woof, but dialog does not suffer like it does when you reduce the overall fader. Louis
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 01-20-2008, 10:35 AM:
 
Mark have the quality of the Panastereo or the Smart units changed since the merger? I never had problems with any Smarts I used but no a lot of folks that say they have. I was just wondering if the merger had made either one better or worse.
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 01-20-2008, 10:50 AM:
 
Mark, the JSD80 and the XD10P do have fader presets.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-20-2008, 11:36 AM:
 
I disagree with your last trick Louis. In a room with a lot of echo, I don't turn down the sub. I would hit the rolloff harder and run the center a little higher and depending on the room tame down the surrounds. This of course has to be done with a reel the tech is 100% familiar with and has screened hundreds of times to be effective.

Removing the low end from a sound system definitely makes it harder on the ears. If you listen to an action film at a good solid volume and then kill the sub and stage low frequency drivers, suddenly your ears will be bleeding and you will be running for the fader. Don't cut the bass.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-21-2008, 08:57 AM:
 
Shouldn't most automation systems have a spare pulse available? One that you could use to insert attenuation pads via a set of micro relays into all 6 channels. The pads would be inserted after the processor output before the amps. It might not even require an added cue, as you could even use the HOUSELIGHTS OUT cue at the start of the feature. Just calculate how much you need to drop the trailer level and get pad values to do that -- or better yet, get variable pots so you can change the drop level as needed.

Using Brad's method -- pulsing the trailers in MONO -- if you can get your automation to do that, then it should be a piece of cake to pulse the attenuation pads instead. BUT...hold on. There's no beauty in that -- it's purely technical. However there IS beauty if savvy booth guys in most every booth in the country DOES setup the booths' automation systems to follow the Miller Trailer Initiative, i.e., trailers play in MONO. doing that, I think we would solve the immediate problem but more importantly, we would be attacking the root cause of the problem.

Playing the trailers in MONO could accomplish quite quickly what the SMPTE Loud Trailer Initiative failed to do in over 10 years. How? What better way to wake up and really impress the trailer mixing engineers that if they insist on mixing their trailers hotter than reference level, then their damn super-fancy-6-channel-trailer-audio-mix which they busted their butts over to get finished by deadline and agonized to get every nanosecond perfect (at least perfect to their half deaf "trailer" ears)-- that trailer...their baby, their oh-this-mix-is-gonna-win-me-an-award, will never be heard in any theatre except in MONO because of the Miller Trailer Initiative!

That should really make them wake up and smell the ears bleeding. And hey, Mister Trailer Audio Mixer -- if you feel you need to wow all those studio and ad agency suits that hired you to mix their trailer, then how's this for simple: TURN IT UP IN YOUR DAMN SCREENING ROOM and leave our theatres alone....or MONO it will be!

BTW, Smart's Afterburner was a weak solution to the problem and I don't think it rose to the challenge because, while we all probably wouldn't loose any sleep if audio on the Attraction Reel (excuse me, trailer pack) were compressed, doing the same to the feature track is unacceptable. The Afterburner, as far as I know, was ubiquitous -- it stayed in the circuit during the feature as well. Smart was hoping that it would be properly set to have a hard ceiling threshold that in theory would NOT affect the feature, but that requires a competent tech (you know, UNLIKE the same ones that set up systems so sound has to be played at fader 5). And it requires fools with fat sticky finger not mess around with it. Besides, I think it was only meant for analog sound anyway; with digital's much wider dynamic range, there would be a big problem with all those special sound effect hitting the ceiling threshold and being stomped on. A better a solution is to deal directly with the BAD trailer mix at the source and not do anything to compromise the feature soundtrack. So we are back to playing trailers in MONO!
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-21-2008, 09:49 AM:
 

quote: Ron Funderburg

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Mark have the quality of the Panastereo or the Smart units changed since the merger? I never had problems with any Smarts I used but no a lot of folks that say they have. I was just wondering if the merger had made either one better or worse.

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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An exhibitor may be obligated by his contract to play trailers in stereo...

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Brad... Two things you may not have considered.... An exhibitor may be obligated by his contract to play trailers in stereo... running them in mono with D-Cinema isn't possible but the use of the remote fader is.

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Like the last two replies, I've never heard of such a retarded thing (although I'm sure the studios would just LOVE to put that in their contracts...along with playing it at "10" and running no less than 3 hours of previews before the feature.)

As far as D-cinema goes, score more points for QSC's "BASIS" system. Just setup a separate config file to tame things down (or totally mute some channels if you like) and screw 'em.

I like Frank's first post on this page.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-22-2008, 09:16 PM:
 
I've had zero problems with the CM510 supplies and I have had a fair number out there. I think I've had maybe 1 failed CM410. Then again, I allow 1U above and 1U below the CSP1200 (or any Pana equipment since it needs to breathe) as well as I normally have my racks blown WITH FILTERED AIR...not the typical "dirt pump" that many racks use (just a fan in the top without any filtering).

Steve
 

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Posted by Tom Mundell (Member # 4555) on 01-22-2008, 09:39 PM:
 
I get the impression a lot of research is/has been done on trailers, has anyone ever done any studies to determine if a trailer really is that much more effective if it's louder?
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-22-2008, 10:35 PM:
 
A thing is more effective if people notice it. People notice things that are loud because they "stand out" from other things. Hence, loud trailers. The same goes for TV commercials.

Whether the thing in question is annoying or not has no bearing, of course.
 

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Posted by Tom Mundell (Member # 4555) on 01-22-2008, 10:58 PM:
 
I've often heard that, but has anyone really done anything to show it really is the case a louder trailer/commercial does stand out and is more effective and remembered?

I'm just curious because I don't think a louder trailer has ever stood out for me because it was loud; I don't think I could even name a single trailer I've seen recently that was louder than the rest (and at some theaters I have seen some inconsistent trailer volumes). So I've wondered if that was just something that seemed to make sense (regardless of reality) and thus is adhered to, if loud trailers do stand out to me and I just didn't attribute it to loudness, or what stands out to me is different than most people...I guess I've also just been amazed that annoying advertising isn't counterproductive.

[ 01-23-2008, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: Tom Mundell ]
 

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Posted by Peter David Bruce (Member # 4447) on 01-24-2008, 05:10 AM:
 
We always play ads and trailers at volume 4, and the feature at 4.5.

just seems to make sense.
however also, some adverts and trailers have audio that just peaks alot. or certain frequencies like boomy voices etc that stand out naturally.

i dont think its a case of volume differences but however different frequencies of the audio that are different from those used in the film itself.

my theory anyway
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-24-2008, 09:07 AM:
 
Remember trailers are mixed by the same guy who does toothpaste commercials. He thinks we are a giant TV set! Louis
 

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