Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Running typical cinema programs on Vista

This is topic Running typical cinema programs on Vista in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-22-2008, 05:36 PM:

This has probably been discussed before, but I haven't found much info about that yet. Do typical cinema programs like the CP650 setup software of DRAS run on Vista?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-22-2008, 08:09 PM:

FYI: Dolby wasn't even sure about this when I called them and asked if it would work... the reply was you'd be the first to try it. And so I tried Dolby Server Client on a new Vista Machine and it would run but not correctly, the display did strange things and the computer finally locked up. I don't know if the problem was that it didn't like the Linux based Dolby program or if the Vista system didn't like JSE Runtime that makes the Server Client graphics happen. Because of time constraints I had to track down a used XP computer whilst in Ceeyenne, WY and use it instead. All was then fine and dandy.

BTW: When I bought the new Vista computer the sales guy told me that many people who had bought Vista based machines... which are all thats available any longer... had to downgrade them to XP in order to get many common programs to run properly. Fortunately I was able to return the Vista machine for a refund.

Mark

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-22-2008, 10:07 PM:

Screw Windows Vista.

Get SUSE Linux.

You should be able to build a live-bootable copy of the operating system, install all the applications you need then burn them to a DVD-ROM

Insert the DVD and give the correct incantation. Boot the computer into Linux. Do your work. When you're done, take the DVD out of the drive and reboot. The computer will run in Windows again.

SUSE Linux is called for here because it has Windows emulation built in. You SHOULD be able to get your Windows applications to run under Linux in emulation mode.

I advocate that all equipment manufacturers who have software to manage their equipment write their apps for linux and build them into a live-boot CD or DVD-ROM. That way they'll bypass all of these silly OS incompatibility issues because they packaged their software with an OS that will run it.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-22-2008, 11:45 PM:

(..even a bootable CD copy of Knoppix (linux) is great too...), but do agree, SUSE Linux is something else.

..think I'll stay with XP-PRO-SP2... - Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-23-2008, 08:02 AM:

I've messed around with some of the Linux based OS's and its basically the same problem as Vista... some Windows based programs work and some don't. So I too will stick with XP-Pro. I've had mine up for literally months at a time with no problems.

Mark

Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 01-23-2008, 08:52 AM:

I have recently bought a laptop with Vista and had to downgrade it to XP. I´m just happy that I was able to.
XP is not the only feature that has gone extinct. RS-232 ports too! And not all USB-RS232 adapters work properly for our needs!

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-23-2008, 09:16 AM:

I have gotten to old to learn a new OS for absolutely no good reason at all other than to make Microsucks more money. XP Pro works fine; it's not broke; I don't need to fix it. No RS232....what are they crazy?

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 01-23-2008, 09:37 AM:

RS232 ports started disapearing years ago. Probably because there haven't been any (at least not many) consumer devices that use it any more. Everything has gone to USB. I have heard of issues with USB-to-serial adapters. For my RS232 needs, I use a serial I/O PC card made by Socket and have not had any problems with it.

I completely agree with Frank about Vista. There is no need to "upgrade" because there is absolutely nothing wrong with XP (except, perhaps, the fact that it is too damn expensive!). Good point about wasting the time learning a new OS for no reason.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 01-23-2008, 10:34 AM:

Most PC Card serial adapters have excellent (perfect) compatibility compared to built-in serial ports. One notable exception is some older Compaq consumer laptops that have serial ports that use non-standard voltage levels that don't work electrically with some equipment; in that case, the PC Card adapters fix that.

Not all USB-Serial adapters are the same; the ones based on the FTDI chip are excellent and I haven't had any compatibility problems even with picky devices.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 01-23-2008, 12:28 PM:

XP was the first version of Windows that wouldn't run some programs written for earlier versions of windows. I was told the XP stood for expire and the person telling me that thought i was collusion between Microsoft and other software companies to force updates and now VISTA is the same some programs preform fine that were written for earlier versions and others don't! So if you are use to a particular program and doesn't work the theory is you will run out and buy the new VISTA certified version. Makes sense to me! But hey I just want my stuff to work!

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-23-2008, 12:33 PM:

The problem with suggesting linux is that the wine "emulator" (well technically it's a re-write of most of the API and not an emulator) is more or less a crap shoot as to if a piece of software will work or not.

Wine has apparently gotten better over the years but there is no way to guarantee that the program will run properly... especially with something that's for a niche market like Dolby software as the devs focus on having it interact well with commonly used programs.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 01-23-2008, 12:39 PM:

Chris most wine improves over the years while Whine never improves! Sorry couldn't resist that!

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 01-23-2008, 12:50 PM:

quote: Ken Lackner
RS232 ports started disapearing years ago. Probably because there haven't been any (at least not many) consumer devices that use it any more. Everything has gone to USB. I have heard of issues with USB-to-serial adapters. For my RS232 needs, I use a serial I/O PC card made by Socket and have not had any problems with it.

For consumer devices maybe, but we've probably got more RS-232 (and RS-422 and RS-485) now than we've had for years, possibly ever. It's widely used in things like device control and automation systems, where only small amounts of data need to be transmitted. I'm thinking of things like access control systems, boilerhouse plant management, and similar things. We also have a lot of interactive whiteboards which use it. In some cases there's a local controller which talks some form of serial to the devices in an area of the building, and this then talks IP to the rest of the World. The main reason that USB isn't used for this sort of thing is that it's limited to a range of about 15 feet, whereas RS-232 is supposed to go 50, and will often go considerably further. RS-422 will go much further. You can use repeaters with USB, but conventional serial connections will do it without, and the speed of USB isn't needed for this sort of thing.

Posted by Peter David Bruce (Member # 4447) on 01-23-2008, 01:04 PM:

I saw a basic version of this done on a mac a few months back. if i find the link ill share it with you guys.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-23-2008, 05:08 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
When I bought the new Vista computer the sales guy told me that many people who had bought Vista based machines... which are all thats available any longer...

Sounds like a lazy sales guy. I think the major computer vendors still offer a choice of XP or Vista since that's what the consumers want. At least, I know Dell does. (Or, they did a couple of weeks ago...)

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-23-2008, 06:25 PM:

I checked with the DELL site and XP is still available.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-23-2008, 08:38 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Sounds like a lazy sales guy. I think the major computer vendors still offer a choice of XP or Vista since that's what the consumers want. At least, I know Dell does. (Or, they did a couple of weeks ago...)

No, not at all. In fact the salesman (Circus City in Cheyenne) went out of his way to get the exact specs of the puter we were interested in. The fact that we needed it right now was more of a limiting factor for us... Dolby told us we'd be the first to try it on Vista and we found out it did not work reliably. He also told us that downgrading the puter to XP would also void it's warranty. They took the equipment back no questions asked.... but he did thank us for there finally being some really good sound systems in town and that he didn't have to drive all the way to Denver to see a movie any more. We found a clean used P-4 Dellwith XP-Pro within an hour and had Show Manager Client up and running within another hour...

Mark

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-23-2008, 09:53 PM:

quote: "Chris Slycord"
The problem with suggesting linux is that the wine "emulator" (well technically it's a re-write of most of the API and not an emulator) is more or less a crap shoot as to if a piece of software will work or not.

Thus the reason I suggested SUSE. WINE is built in.
Novell made a deal with the devil and paid Microsoft for access to some of its intellectual property. SUSE is the one that has the best chance of being able to run the Dolby software.

I agree. It's not a sure thing. But, given the fact that the software isn't working the way you want it using the operating system you have now, you've got practically nothing to lose but a few hours of your time.

I've heard people tell me things like that before. "Oh! You can't do that...", they'd say.

I had been running DRAS on my old Macintosh iBook laptop using Virtual PC and I'd been doing it for several weeks when Lonny from Dolby told me it was impossible. The same goes for the SDDS software and the Ultra*Stereo program. They all said it won't work.

Granted, this kind of thing isn't for the average "mouse pusher" who just wants to turn his computer on and not think about it. You've got to put some effort into it.

If you're smart enough to get Linux up and running on your computer you are certainly smart enough to figure out if it's possible to get Dolby's software to run on Linux using WINE.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2008, 12:28 AM:

Since most of Dolby's software is Linux based it should be a cinch. I don't know whats with Vista since I more or less refuse to own a copy. I can only assume that its along way before it's time. Seems like many people say there is a lack of drivers for common programs they normally run. I'll stick with XP myself. I even run it on my Dell Server and its been up for many months at a time with out fail.

Mark

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-24-2008, 10:13 AM:

I just got WinDRAS Ver.1.0.4.2 to run on the old Dell in my office using Ubuntu (Gutsy) via WINE.

The application runs perfectly fine if not a bit slow. But this is probably more likely to be because my computer is old and slow and has only the minimum amount of memory rather than any problems with Linux, WINE or Dolby.

I don't have a Dolby Digital processor to connect to so that will have to remain untried for me. But this does prove that the program will run. In my estimation, the only problem that could put a stopper on this is getting the program to access the correct COM ports. That's something that might take some tinkering.

Even though this isn't a conclusive test, I'd say it looks promising. If Ubuntu will run it, SUSE should surely work.

(If you don't want to pay for SUSE, OpenSUSE should work just as well.)

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-24-2008, 11:51 AM:

quote: Randy Stankey
Thus the reason I suggested SUSE. WINE is built in.

I guess you misunderstood my post. Just because wine is installed doesn't mean a given program will work with it at all. That's what I meant by saying it's a crap shoot as to whether it'd work or not.

But it seems it works so that's a good sign.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Since most of Dolby's software is Linux based it should be a cinch.

That's not true. For it to work perfectly, natively they'd still have to write a linux version of the setup software.

quote: Mike Blakesley
Sounds like a lazy sales guy. I think the major computer vendors still offer a choice of XP or Vista since that's what the consumers want. At least, I know Dell does. (Or, they did a couple of weeks ago...)

On the other hand, buying in a store is limited to the computers they have on hand, unlike an online company that lets to configure the system.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 01-24-2008, 12:45 PM:

Yes, you are right. You can't guarantee that Linux/WINE will run these programs but they are already guaranteed NOT to work with Vista or, if they do work, they will work unreliably.

In making the attempt to run them in Linux you've got almost nothing to lose but a few hours of your time.

Plus, if they do work, even if they only work reliably enough to get by on until Microsoft and/or the manufacturer comes up with a solution, you're ahead of the game.

Furthermore, with the ability to create a bootable Linux CD-R it might be possible to make a disk especially for the purpose of running software that, otherwise, would be unusable.

Many of us are using "company machines" which come in standard configurations. Surely, it's possible to make a bootable CD with "Damn Small" Linux or "Puppy" or "Coyote" Linux which is preconfigured to work on the machines your company issues. Then all you have to do is drop in your CD, reboot your machine and do your work. When you're done, remove the disk and reboot. The computer is back to its original configuration.

Yes, I know this isn't guaranteed until it's tried. If I had the cinema processor to experiment on I'd be trying this right now.

Given the problems people have been having in the past to get these programs to work I'm surprised it hasn't been tried before. There's almost nothing to lose in trying.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 01-25-2008, 09:44 AM:

Use VMWARE. It runs on practically anything, and can boot up virtual PCs with any OS on it from DOS to Vista or any flavor of Linux and other things. And it can pass the guest OS through most of the hardware devices. I think the demo is still free for 30 days. Try it and see. If it works, great! If not, you didn't lose anything. Just delete it.

It doesn't matter what the OS on the host PC is. You can install any guest operating system that will support the Dolby software. We have XP PCs here running VMWARE Windows 95 virtual PCs for programs that don't run in XP. And you can flip back and forth between the host OS and the guest OS. Our users (managers, not IT people) use them, and they're fine with them. They understand how it works and have no problems.

From the VMWARE web site, included in "Those who should buy it":

quote:
Those who need to rehost a legacy application on a modern operating system (i.e, rehost Windows XP as a virtual machine on a Windows Vista host machine)

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 01-26-2008, 01:44 AM:

I have done the same with DOS and Win95 programs running under Virtual PC in XP. Sure, stuff like that works, and it's kind of fun to build your virtual "legacy" PC and then run old stuff on it (I have done that with old DOS games, just for shits and giggles and a little bit of nostalgia) but I just don't feel like the hassle only because Microsoft have come up with yet another way to screw the customers and force a half-baked product on them. Or actually, that's not yet another way, it's a sequel to what they did several times before, unfortunately with success...

I haven't played with VMWARE yet and wouldn't mind to, again just for fun, but I don't see why I should have to buy that to run programs which just last year ran fine on the then current OS. Nonononoonoo!

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 01-26-2008, 07:30 AM:

I agree that does suck. You should send the bill to Microsoft.

[Wink]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-26-2008, 08:29 AM:

the only issue I have heard was vm ware doesn't support pcmcia devices

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 01-26-2008, 09:36 AM:

Sure it does. It supports any PC Card devices that are supported by the host OS. For example, if you have a PC Card serial adapter, it presents real serial ports to your host OS, which you can then connect to your VMware guest OS.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-26-2008, 08:16 PM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Use VMWARE. It runs on practically anything, and can boot up virtual PCs with any OS on it from DOS to Vista or any flavor of Linux and other things.

A similar program that's free is virtualbox, though it only runs guests that are 32-bit (the 64-bit version is for running on 64-bit hosts).

There's also 2 "versions" of the program; one that's open source and one that's not. The closed source version adds support for running the VM underneath an RDP server, USB support, USB over RDP, and an iSCSI initiator (allowing you to use an iSCSI drive as a target for the virtual disk even if the guest OS doesn't understand iSCSI).

So unless you need to run a 64-bit guest OS, this should do.