This is topic Bottom up lacing in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 02-15-2008, 07:19 AM:
 
I just wanted to commend whoever wrote that lacing tutorial in the "TIPS" section. As per that document I started lacing from the bottom up about 6 weeks ago and I'm now just as fast (if not faster) lacing bottom up as top down plus, of course, there's the real benefit that the leader stays off the floor now. We're using Kinoton machines here, as opposed to the Christies in the tutorial but the principle is, of course, the same. It just takes some time to nut out the techniques specific to our equipment. So kudos to whoever wrote that tutorial, it's made me a better person!

So is this bottom up lacing method a widely accepted practice now?
 

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Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 02-15-2008, 08:23 AM:
 
Of the six locations I take care of, only one has operators that practice this technique. I wouldn't say it's too common, unfortunately.

I operated FP-23C's and PK-60D's a few years ago, and the bottom-up method is so easy with them. Probably easier than top-down, as I recall.

I do belive Mr. Miller himself wrote that page. Brad?
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-15-2008, 09:26 AM:
 
Brad did write that page and it's good advice, but anybody who can't thread top-down without the leader touching the floor should get out of the business.
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 02-15-2008, 09:47 AM:
 
You can thread 'up' on any machine...it just takes practice. I find it funny now when I'm doing a dolby loop where I find it tricky to thread 'down'.

Try it...do it...it's a piece of cake and other will see the benefits and copy you.
 

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Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 02-15-2008, 02:57 PM:
 

quote: Mike Blakesley

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Brad did write that page and it's good advice, but anybody who can't thread top-down without the leader touching the floor should get out of the business.

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quote: Peter David Bruce

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Not sure what you mean about the 'takeup side' though.?

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quote: Peter David Bruce

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Hm. thanks ben I think I follow. I literally go around the projector... avoiding laceup completely. pull it through until I have just enough to get it onto the platter.... Then lace it up and motor the film through to the countdown?

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quote: Peter David Bruce

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Hm. thanks ben I think I follow. I literally go around the projector... avoiding laceup completely. pull it through until I have just enough to get it onto the platter.... Then lace it up and motor the film through to the countdown?

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quote: Chris Slycord

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While that works, try pulling enough film that you don't have to hit the motor switch when you're done. Puts less wear on the motor having it turn on and off quickly plus having your print spin quickly then stop can make it shift a bit.

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I prefer to motor it down, that way you can confirm that everything is running correctly before the show starts. My procedure is:
1. Lace projector.
2. Check loops, sprockets and framing.
3. Close turret and run down.
4. While running down, manually open dowser and check framing while it is running. Also, flick sound drum pinch roller (we use Kinotons) while it is running to make sure the film is seated properly around the drum.
5. After run down, check loops and sprockets again.
6. Make sure turret is closed and soundtrack is facing me.
7. Make sure the right print is laced.
8. Check all rollers to and from platter tree.
9. Check for film tension on take up platter.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-17-2008, 11:13 PM:
 
I've never like to motor ("bumping the motor") film down the machine due to the added wear and tear on the starting mechanisms inside the motor itself.

That's what the flywheel on the motor (or turndown knob if Christies, or motor knob) is for - is to hand turndown the machine to check for operation before hitting the "Run" button.

One can lace up in the framebox where you need to begin, then do a manual turndown to set your start position.

I even give the flywheel (or knob) a twist as I hit the "Run" button - to get the interna on the spin plus to reduce the start amps down a bit.

Also, if one is careful on lacing up both machine and transport device, there is actually no need to motor down to ensure everything is in proper sequence (esp. in checking if film will start in frame..and that's a very long thread in itself located in this forum..) before hitting the "Run" button. Kind of a useless pre-show check procedure.

-Monte
 

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Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 02-18-2008, 02:17 AM:
 
I get what you're saying there, Monte, but I guess there's really no substitute to firing the machine up and giving it a demo prior to start to make sure everything is operating properly at full speed. On some of the older equipment particularly I've been able to identify loose spindles and gates and the like simply because the machine sounded different during rundown. It's always handy solve these problems before they become mid-show catastrophes. Even if it's just a squeaky roller there's time to identify it and rectify it before the show starts, before it's out-of-sight-out-of-mind. our leaders are 20-30secs long so there's time for the projector to get to cruise speed. I guess ultimately it's a site preference and my employer seems happy to wear the slightly increased cost of wear and tear (not that I'm in a position to change site policy - I'm neither tech nor management). Horses for courses, I guess.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-18-2008, 06:37 AM:
 
I always motor down, if possible. In fact, one reel-to-reel, I add leader to motor down. Keep your hands away from the count down...the added wear and tear on the extra start is more than outweighed on the dirt free beginning of the film and to ensure that all is perfect before you start the reel/movie.

There is a difference between a "bump" and a run down. A bump is normally a sequence of short bursts that basically have the motor always on its start winding... a run down gets everything up to full-speed for a period and it is a single use. Whereas I have not had a single motor failure on me in nearly 3 decades of this practice...I'll stick to my methods and I think you will find that Brad will claim something very similar too (motor down).
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 02-18-2008, 08:07 AM:
 
Our 'motor down' is about 45 seconds long. Too long to just sit there and do nothing so they 'may as well' check their thread.

It's almost as if I planned it that way...
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-18-2008, 09:38 AM:
 

quote: Stu Jamieson

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7. Make sure the right print is laced.

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This should be step 1, I would think.
 

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Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 02-18-2008, 10:02 AM:
 
For me, when I thread a Cinemeccanica or Century, I thread top down. When I first was exposed to the Strong Apogee, and the convoluted pad roller/idle sprocket at the lower loop, I simply couldn't get my hands to load the gate, wrap the intermittent, maintain the loop, wrap the idle sprocket and then close the pad.

So I came up with a different approach. I lace the idle sprocket, sound head and then set my framing on the exit drive sprocket. Take up the slack by pulling back at the gate and then pull 3 frames down at the gate and then set the intermittent, close the gate and then the pad. Then I set the top loop and back thread the DTS head and/or film cleaner.

And I don't want to hijack the thread, but what is the general consensus regarding advancing through the leader. Do you thread to the start point, or do you thread early in the leader and then motor advance to the start point?

[EDIT]
Sorry - didn't read through the entire thread where Motoring was discussed...

[ 02-18-2008, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Blaine Young ]
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-18-2008, 01:03 PM:
 
I think the majority of people here thread just far enough for the leader to be attached securely to the platter, and then motor to the start point. That's the way I do it, at least....it takes about 30 seconds to run the film to the start point.

Monte's method above is fine for verifying if the projector is threaded properly, but motoring down allows you to verify that the entire film path is running correctly.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-18-2008, 01:17 PM:
 
on my lacing, since I come from the days of changeovers and use countdown leads, I still lace between "9" and "8" in the framebox - to closely match up the distance between cuemarks on the film as if doing changeovers, plus with my automation dowser delay settings.

If I used regular clear frameline leader, I usually have the lead splice halfway up on the platter tower to be approximate if I was using countdown leads.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-18-2008, 01:57 PM:
 
As Steve predicted, I've never had a motor fail, and no I do not advocate "bumping" the motor. However turning the motor and letting it get full up to speed (or at a POSitioning speed, ala Kinoton) is highly recommended.

Threading right at the starting point is just foolish. I don't care if I hurt anyone's feelings here, people who do that ARE adding unnecessary wear to the start of the reel/platter pack. The film should always be handled well ahead of where the starting frame is and then motored or POSitioned down. Likewise there is no excuse for not adding some extra tail leader to the ends of the reels of platter pack (this can even be strips of film from a junk trailer). I am so sick and tired of getting a used print in mint or near mint condition, yet the end of the credits or reels are beaten to hell and back because of stupid handling practices like this.
 

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Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 02-18-2008, 02:37 PM:
 
I always place 25-30 feet of junk film on the end of the last reel. In some cases, our platters are down a flight of stairs from the projector, and my objective is that when the print tails out, all of the feature proper is on the platter, with the junk film lying on the floor (or cascading down the stairs).

As for motor failures - these Strong Crapogee projectors are such garbage. We've been open just 2 years and have had to replace 3 motors, 2 dozen projector head fans, 4 motor couplers and 2 intermittents. And the Strong platters are not much better - 16 3-deck units and we've already had to replace 3 motors. I sure miss the Vic5's and Vic8 with AW3 platters I had at GCC...
 

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Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 02-18-2008, 02:55 PM:
 

quote: Mike Blakesley

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quote: Stu Jamieson

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7. Make sure the right print is laced.

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This should be step 1, I would think.

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Haha, of course it is! My procedure above is only from lacing onwards (just following on from the topic of the thread). My Step 7 is actually the double check at the end of my entire procedure to confirm that the correct print is laced before I walk away from it.
 

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Posted by Thomas Pitt (Member # 4322) on 02-18-2008, 03:23 PM:
 
Blaine, that's a good idea with the scrap film. I've seen it done in an IMAX booth (using old scratched pieces of movie film for threading and tail-out), but not very often on normal 35mm setups. If anything, you should put scrap film on the beginning of the film as well, as that's the part that's most likely to touch the floor when threading.

I've never actually tried this, but it should work in theory. How about lacing up everything except the projector, platter to platter, and THEN lacing up the projector with the film that's nearest on the rollers? That would eliminate the possibility that the film would touch the floor during threading, and the projectionist could then thread top-down or bottom-up, whichever they prefer.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-18-2008, 04:47 PM:
 
Ummm, Thomas, you might want to check out Threading 101 which has been in the tips section here for many years.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-18-2008, 07:30 PM:
 
So, Brad, what do you advocate doing when running a print reel-to-reel that will only be shown once? Most new prints just barely have enough leader to thread with "8" in the gate and give a few wraps around the takeup hub.

Obviously, it's a good idea to add leader if a print will be shown multiple times, but I normally like to take up onto shipping reels (or cores on split reels) for a once-only show, and most booths don't have an endless supply of frameline leader (old trailers would work, but would likely confuse the next person to get the print).
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 02-18-2008, 08:58 PM:
 
That's a judgment call Scott. If you are running a print that you have any belief may end up running reel to reel again (like an EK print, a festival print, etc) then absolutely you should add extra leader, even if it is junk trailers with the ends labeled clearly so as not to confuse the next guy.

If you are reasonably certain that the print will go straight to a platter house after you are finished with your one-off screening, you are probably better to be as careful as you can and just run on the existing leaders. Its sort of an effort vs. benefit thing.
 

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Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 02-19-2008, 03:27 AM:
 
I've heard a few of you guys refer to this "frameline leader" which presumably is something you buy. We just make our own leaders from disused trailers and ads and countdowns which we salvaged when we top and tailed those trailers and ads.
 

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Posted by Peter David Bruce (Member # 4447) on 02-19-2008, 03:51 AM:
 
We have about 20 of the proper leader, BUT we often have to do the same by making up our own from heads and tails of trailers. Our gash bin is brimming with bits that are perfect.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-19-2008, 05:22 AM:
 

quote: Stu Jamieson

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We just make our own leaders from disused trailers and ads and countdowns which we salvaged when we top and tailed those trailers and ads.

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quote:

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Kyle, on the P35 units, with the pad roller open across the middle constant speed sprocket, the loop from the intermittent assembly should touch the front roller on that pad roller assembly, then back off two sprocket holes over the sprocket, then close the pad roller assembly. This should give you the proper lower loop size.,

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