Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Destroyed soundtrack on Beowulf

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Posted by James Badham (Member # 4696) on 03-01-2008, 10:31 AM:

Hi. I'm a member of a student cinema in the UK. We just recently screened a print of Beowulf that, although it looked fine on the screen, had an absolutely abysmal soundtrack. The dolby digital was a constant fail and the analogue had an extraordinarily high level of hiss, pumping and what sounded like distortion in loud sections (of which there are quite a few in Beowulf!), to the extent where it was almost unintelligible at times. Our next film played fine so I doubt it's anything seriously wrong with our equipment (Vic 5, CP65 with a DA20 for digital and a Cat. 701 sound head) but as the print didn't look seriously damaged on the screen I was just wondering what might cause such serious damage. I was also quite surprised that a print for such a recent film could get in such a bad state so quickly. Has anyone experienced anything similar? Is there any chance that such artefacts could be caused by our equipment or is there anything we could do to try and resolve such an issue if it cropped up again?

Thanks.

Posted by Richard P. May (Member # 3598) on 03-01-2008, 10:40 AM:

It sounds (no pun intended) like the printing of the sound negative onto the print in the lab may have been faulty. If the negative was not in proper contact with the print film, the tracks would be out of focus, thus not play properly.
Since the picture and sound are printed from different negatives, this is entirely possible, and could happen on one print and not the next.
The way to check this would be, if possible, to get another print of BEOWULF and see how it plays. Even thought you have probably ended your run of the picture, the distributor should loan you another for this purpose, as proving what happened is to both of your advantage.

RPM

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 03-01-2008, 10:43 AM:

It is possible that a deep scratch is present on the soundtrack, however, It is also possible that you have a problem with your analog sound. To test it, play a reel of something in Dolby Digital and block the 701 soundhead with a piece of paper. This will simulate the fail condition which occurred on Beowulf. The processor should drop to SR type sound (format 05) automatically. If it drops to A-type (format 04) you'll need to adjust a setting.

Once you verify that it drops to format 05, go ahead and listen to format 05 in the auditorium. If you notice the same level of hiss and distortion, then it is your equipment, and a technician will have to perform an alignment for you. If the sound in format 05 is clear, with clear dialog anchored firmly to the center channel, than It was your print, and you have nothing to worry about.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 03-01-2008, 10:53 AM:

Like Mike said above, if you normally play your prints in SR*D and not analog SR and then have a print with a bad SR*D track you will have to play it in SR, if it sounds terrible in SR and then you have another print come in that plays in digital SR*D your analog sound could be misaligned but you would not realize this as everything plays in digital. I would do what mike said above and if you determine an analog sound problem I would call your tech in to do an A-Chain and move from there.

Posted by James Badham (Member # 4696) on 03-01-2008, 12:30 PM:

Thanks for the replies. We've been having trouble with our digital reader a lot recently anyway with quite high error counts and so we've ended up playing a fair few films in SR with no similar problem before this. Nevertheless I'll check with our next film as suggested to see if we've got an equipment problem. I'm hoping we don't as we don't really have the budget to pay for repairs!

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 03-01-2008, 06:14 PM:

Dumb question, does your sound head have a red light excitor source, or is it still white light? Newer prints have cyan optical tracks, and require a read light (no inferred) reader. If you run a cyan track on a sound head with a white light reader, the sound will be very low, if you bring up the level, there will be a lot of hiss, and the dolby SR decoder will miss track causing pumping and breathing. Being a college you may be running mainly older films that have silver tracks that work fine on white light readers, could this be your first cyan print?

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 03-01-2008, 06:48 PM:

Too small a sound loop on a vic 5 could actually do it, both wow and flutter in the SR sound track, and damage the digital track.

If this happened on the first screening, your digital track would be fine for the first screening only, SR track would be fine if the projector was treaded properly at any later screenings. As a 701 I think a penthouse reader, this would be before the track was damaged. If you have the digital reader installed in the soundhead it is a different matter!

Dolby digital tracks damage easly, even excessive gate tension can do it. If you dont have a modern red light reader as noted above SR will sound pretty darn crap!

Posted by James Badham (Member # 4696) on 03-01-2008, 06:50 PM:

We definitely have a red light excitor so probably not the cause. We tend to show a mix of old and brand new films and up till now I've never encountered such bad sound playback on a print, old or new.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-01-2008, 07:41 PM:

I'm with Richard - seems like a print issue, because:

- Other analogue SVA prints play fine, so it clearly isn't an A-chain problem;
- You've got a red reader, so it clearly isn't a trying to play a cyan track through an exciter bulb problem;
- You didn't notice heavy dirt or scratching on the picture, or report related symptoms (e.g. more crud than usual needing to be cleaned out of the film path at the end of each reel) that would suggest unusually heavy physical damage to the print.

Did the problem persist over more than one reel? If not, then I'd say it is almost certainly a photographic problem with the way the affected reel(s) were printed and processed. If it did, then this is probably ruled out, because as a general rule individual reels are printed in separate batches - all the reel 1s, then all the reel 2s, etc. This problem came up when the 1999 The Mummy was released in Britain. All the reels except 2 were imported US prints for the British release, but the reel 2s were new prints made here, because there were a few minor changes to one scene in order to satisfy the censors' demands for a lower certificate. Thanks to a lab slip-up, some of the prints had a normal English language Dolby Digital and SDDS track, but the analogue SR track was of the German dub. You can imagine the reaction that caused in cinemas which didn't have digital that Friday afternoon...

So if you've got a consistent problem over all the reels in a release print, then my guess is that either it was damaged at a previous cinema which ran it on a platter or tower, or, if you're running long-play too, there's an issue with your equipment. If you're running changeovers and the problem affects the whole show but not any other film, it has to be something a previous cinema did to the print.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-02-2008, 04:31 AM:

James,

You do not mention the physical state of the soundtrack. When you have a problem like this, the very first step should be to look at the soundtrack on the bench with good lighting, and possibly a loupe or magnifying glass (or microscope). Almost all kinds of damage should be visible.

One trick to look at each side (emulsion and base) in two ways: with light behind it, so you can see what is transmitted through it; and with light in front of it, so you can see what is reflected. Often it helps to slowly twist the film back and forth in the light to find the angle where subtle damage is most visible.

You say, "I was also quite surprised that a print for such a recent film could get in such a bad state so quickly." Well, it only takes one bad show or piece of equipment to destroy a print.

--jhawk