This is topic New Anti-Piracy coding in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Richard M. Garbarini (Member # 4693) on 03-03-2008, 10:11 AM:
In Europe, Technicolor (and others) have been using an anti-piracy coding system whereby the digital sound is disabled over up to 9 frames and the analog sound is marked with a bar code (applied with laser or in the printing process). Has anyone seen this in the United States, and if so when?
FYI: There have been two generations of techniques patented since the Kodak CAP coding system. Just trying to find out if anyone has noticed them in use.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-03-2008, 12:14 PM:
I would think that drop with the noise associated would be terribly distracting to the presentation and would end up with those reels being rejected by many theaters.
Posted by Richard M. Garbarini (Member # 4693) on 03-03-2008, 01:14 PM:
The drop in noise is imperceptable. The bar code, optimally, is placed over 4 frames, and cannot be heard with the human ear (not actually always the case.) You have to analyze a read-out of the sound to get the code. The last movie I have seen coded with this method was The Golden Compass.
Technicolor and Warner have another patented method which actually varies the length bewteen set scenes to come up with a number for the print.
The MPAA here, and the GVU in Germany have had a terrible time authenticating films with the numbering and CAP system when the film is re-recorded with a cam corder in the theatre.
Posted by Max Biela (Member # 1919) on 03-03-2008, 02:15 PM:
This is a photo of a brand new print of "Chicken Little" (Technicolor Rome):
It's not a barcode that is "imperceptable" but a rather loud noise scratched into the soundtrack in a very quiet scene. It's distracting like hell and it wasn't possible to get a print without a mark like this. Oh, and guess what, there is big orange CAP code too!
Posted by Richard M. Garbarini (Member # 4693) on 03-03-2008, 02:45 PM:
Wow, by Jove I think he got it. That is exactly what I was looking for - just in America. So it is not imperceptable! Thank you so much.
If anyone can find an example in the US it would be amazing.
Posted by Sebastian Binz (Member # 4567) on 03-03-2008, 04:30 PM:
I can confirm that a bunch of new films in Germany do contain this sort of marking. I found it in the German movie "Keinohrhasen" as well as in a copy of the newest Rambo.
In the auditorium you can actually hear them and, well, someone lately described those sounds as "farts in the sound".
Since those marks usually appear in scenes without much noise, they are very annoying.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-03-2008, 04:40 PM:
Wow, talk about a brute-force method! I guess they think most theaters no longer use the analoge track anymore, and the few that do don't count.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-03-2008, 04:46 PM:
I would really like to think this is a sad, sad, sad, joke.
--jhawk
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-03-2008, 05:26 PM:
Doubt it. Valenti has the industry brainwashed even after his death. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
What about dts? Surely they don't destroy enough of the timecode to force dts to drop to analog.
Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 03-03-2008, 05:28 PM:
Do you know how the digital audio is disabled? The "lines" shown on the film will screw with the DTS time code, but DTS will "freewheel" for about 4 seconds. I do not see Dolby digital or SDDS on that film. The lines look almost like this was caused by a printer problem. Have you tried getting a replacement reel, and if so, is it marked the same way?
If this IS a form of crap code, you and everyone you know need to raise hell with your government, and get this crap stopped.
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-03-2008, 06:33 PM:
I'm with Bruce; looks like the "high quality" of Technicolor/Rome. Louis
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-03-2008, 07:11 PM:
That does not seem the audio piracy code to me.
The audio piracy code is made covering SRD track for some frames. The CP drops to analog and on the analog track there is some blu bars for two frames that make a tone in the room. I suppose that this tone is different for print number basis, since the location of the noise is the same on every prints.
How can you say that cannot be heard??
I went upstairs during screenings many and many times before understanding that it was a new CAP code since 2004...
I was in touch with Dolby labs UK. They told me that it's used in USA too (that's what they told me) and that they were fighting with studios to remove them.
On DTS, I really don't know HOW, the tone is overimposed by the player, it does not drop to SR. It's less noticeable.
Well, if you have a very well aligned sound system, the short SR drop is not so much distracting, and they have improved it (I think it's shorter). But in real world SR is left to its destiny and you can just imagine what can be heard in the auditorium. And think to older processors, that makes drops in a more noticeable way. CP650 2.2.5.0 wave just a bit when going again in Digital.
Here's a shot.
At this time Disney stopped the terrible tecnique.
Brad: Rejecting? I talked to Technicolor Rome (this tecnique is a Technicolor patent) and they told me that the only complains they had was from theater with WHITE light on SR...
They told me that this system is working, and that noone is complaying, besides me.
Ciao
Marco
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-03-2008, 07:54 PM:
Are you freaking kidding me??!?
Anyone else for chopping that crap out of the print completely and throwing it away? I'd claim print damage if anyone asked. I've done that with the huge orange dots too on occasion when they were unbelievably intrusive. It looks like you'd only lose about two or three frames there. A much better option in my opinion than hearing some random noise that interrupts the show every single time the movie plays.
How idiotic.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-03-2008, 08:07 PM:
Mark
First time I heard that was on Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. I run upstairs to stop and to check. That time I chopped away the offending frames because I thought of a print defect.
But this shit is printed FOUR time for one of the reel. It's stupid and useless, but I really prefer four noises than mutilating four time a reel. More, think of the difficult in a multiplex inspecting all reels searching for Audio CrAP code...
I complained, but seems I was the only one. If the theater was mine, I would NEVER accept a print with a defective soundtrack. Do we buy 10.000$ Dolby equipment to see it reverting four time a movie?
I fought my battle, and I lost it.
Ciao
M
Posted by Thomas Pitt (Member # 4322) on 03-04-2008, 12:53 AM:
I posted here about 'bloops' in the audio a while ago. Possibly this was the new CAP code I was hearing; the sound briefly going to a tone and then recovering.
Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 03-04-2008, 01:11 AM:
Can certainly say that I've not seen or heard anything like what Marco or Max have shown in those pics. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 03-04-2008, 02:47 AM:
how about turning off the analog led during the course of the movie. a 1/4 second silence during the dropout would probably be better than the beep (and defeat its purpose). assuming the digital track is sound in general.
Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 03-04-2008, 06:53 AM:
Watching 'The Bucket List' tonight, I swore I heard the farting noise described, so a possible confirmation.
Posted by Richard M. Garbarini (Member # 4693) on 03-04-2008, 08:15 AM:
I can explain the process a little better. This method (analog bar code) must force the film to the analog to be effective. The "farting" noises (which I was unaware of) are the code, which will be transferred when the movie is pirated with a cam corder. Each print, either by laser or in the printing method, scares the other tracks forcing the analog to be used.
Posted by Max Biela (Member # 1919) on 03-04-2008, 08:28 AM:
There were a few different systems in use over the last few years:
1) a simple number scratched into the picture area (one frame, the last movie was Spiderman 1 I think). It's simple, not as distracting as dots appearing every few frames but easy to remove since it was only necessary to remove ONE frame.
2) The original CAP code by Kodak (small brown dots). Nearly invisible but difficult to find in a pirated copy (see older topics).
3) An updated version of the CAP code with big orange dots in one reel of the movie (used by Deluxe)
4) Noise scratched into the analogue soundtrack, at the same time the SR*D track is removed from 6-8 frames. This was done by the German company "EFS". I think there is a subdivision in the UK as well? Since most movies are released with 300-500 prints in Germany it was possible to scratch every single print by hand. The strange thing about it is that it works only in SR*D. Both DTS and SDDS are unaffected. I've seen this kind of mark on a print of "xXx" (SRD/DTS/SDDS) and SDDS was playing just fine as only one of the tracks was removed (->short DCM).
Shortly after the release of "xXx" most studios stopped using DTS in Germany so nearly all prints were SRD only, (Sonys prints had a SRD SDDS track). "Chicken Little", like most movies had a timecode but there were no discs available.
Recently most studios started releasing in DTS again. As mentioned above the DTS track contains "clicks" as well. I don't know how this is done but I think it has to do with the 1.46 firmware update. SDDS is the only soundtrack that's unaffected by anti-piracy codes, however Sony Pictures is the only distributor printing SDDS in Germany.
5) Technicolors system was developed after the release of "Chicken Little" but is based on the same "technology": reverting to SR and playing a noise instead. However it's much more distracting since it "bleeps" rather than "clicks" up to 10 (!!!) times a reel. I could try to record it if it would be possible to upload the mp3 onto the FT server.
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-04-2008, 11:56 AM:
What are the DTS clicks supposed to identify? The serial number of the unit maybe?
And how does the player know when to play the clicks? Is there a special trigger code on the DTS track (time code on the film or in the audio files themselves) that kicks it off, or is it random?
And by the way, your battle isn't lost yet, Marco.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-04-2008, 12:12 PM:
I sent to Brad a short clip of "deja vu" from an Italian link. What you can hear is from SR and does not show SRD revertion.
Recently the "buzz" has been less noticeable, but unacceptable to me.
This way, next CAP will mute the audio and a female voice will say "This is copy number 125 - this is copy number 125"
I don't really know how DTS coding works. I suppose that a print copy number is enclosed in each print's timecode and that DTS is able to create a tone different from each copy. Seems sci-fi for a 1996 DOS-based device ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I have a monitor connected to my 6D and does not show anything about piracy.
Ciao
Marco
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-04-2008, 12:12 PM:
Here is the mp3 clip.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-04-2008, 06:47 PM:
What do you think about it?
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 03-05-2008, 04:31 AM:
You have got to be effin kiddin me! First off, whereas the lab has to put that garbage in thousands of prints, even the most innept of bootlegers only needs to edit out the noises once, and THEN make his ten thousand DVD copies, sans the farts.
Are these MPAA suits out of their freakin minds? A crap code has got to be INAUDIBLE and INVISIBLE so the pirate doesn't know where they are; make them obvious like this abortion and he's got his video editor on line and just cutting away. Do they really think mutilating the presentation is going to stop ANYTHING....especially off-the-screen copies? May they all find red hot pepper juice in their condoms.
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-05-2008, 07:47 AM:
I think that since it's so easy to hear it, this sound is very easy for pirates to defeat. If nothing else, when you're friendly neighborhood pirate is putting the movie together in his favorite DVD authoring program, all he has to do is cut out those frames that contain the fart noise and blend the audio over that cut. His customers will never know a thing. He could also just blank the audio over those frames. The people who buy his product are not expecting world class quality videos anyway.
I think this is a horribly stupid idea given that the only people who are being inconvenienced by this noise are the people who actually legitimately paid to see the movie. I'm all for putting noises on there that can be picked up by the video camera, and reproduced in the video, if they aren't audible to the human ears. I don't know if that's possible though. Or even make a noise that is inaudible to the ears, but is picked up on the cameras and ruins the quality. That would be awesome if they could come up with a way to do that.
[ 03-05-2008, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Mark J. Marshall ]
Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 03-05-2008, 08:24 AM:
Yep, thats it, its in Australia alright, not my cinema, but guessing a Deluxe or Atlab print.
Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 03-05-2008, 08:59 AM:
What utter nonsense!
For a group of perfectionists as we all here are, the idea of opaque tape splices is intolerable. What do we think of this latest anti enjoyment scheme? NUTS!
The print in Max's photo is obviously manually mutilated. This could be done to individual prints on an individual basis. That print could be tracked to the projecting theatre.
Marco's photo has a lab inserted code that would require a different sound negative for each print. This would be hard if not impossible to trace to the individual screen from which the video was pirated as all prints would be similarly coded.
I'm afraid that the industry is dumbing down the theatre experience to the point that no one will want to participate. Just look at the number of negative things you can pay good money to experience at the cinema. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
KEN
Posted by Thomas Pitt (Member # 4322) on 03-05-2008, 03:18 PM:
Just listened to the MP3. If you mean the short burst of 'square wave' about 3/4 of the way through, that's exactly the noise I often hear when watching a movie now!
I think it also depends on the ambient noise of the scene into which the code is inserted. Insert it into a scene with lots of shouting and explosions on the soundtrack, and you're less likely to notice it. Insert it into a quiet scene with gentle speech (like on the MP3), and it's very noticeable!
First the CAP dots flashing on the frames, which contrary to popular belief are VERY noticeable (even if you do it at a camera cut), and now this...
Regarding inserting stuff that is inaudible to the human ear but picked up on microphones, I'm sure there will soon be systems that do that. There are certainly systems that distort the picture on camcorder copies, either by projecting a digital interference pattern or flashing IR lamps behind the screen, not sure about audio though.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-05-2008, 06:38 PM:
I got an e-mail fomr a friend of the guy in GErmany whom invented this system. And to answer his question here I have yet to see it on a print... I repair not project.....
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-05-2008, 07:13 PM:
Thomas
These burts are put in quite moments, since it has to be recognized later while inspecting DVD and files. And has to be audible since sometimes audio is recorded with camera or cell phones so high frequency or low frequency are not captured.
Sometimes they put the bursts in some more loud scenes, and the result is often very poor. The drop in SR is more audible when the dynamic is higher and CP650 (at least mine 2.2.5.0) has a small behaviour to weave a bit when lock on SRD again, despite nothing is disturbing the speed of the sound drum.
In Deja Vu was particular annoying since, as you heard in the clip, the burts are put during music scenes and a small "wooow" was heard after the anti piracy code (not in the clip, that was from SR).
CP650 has the behaviour to make some small "BUMP" when dropping in SR too. Technicolor Rome told me that this is a "defect" of DOlby processor during dropouts.
I replyied that they cannot say that a Dolby unit is defective if they do not handle perfectly a blu line on a soundtrack that is not supposed to have any...
The entire operation is the most nonsense I ever saw. Ever.
I just think of the time consuming behind the DTS reprogramming (the AP handling was available with just a new version of DTS.EXE). Money wasted, while print quality is always worsening.
As told, at this time this anti piracy is "better" and less annoying. If I remember correctly the blu line on the SRD soundtrack is shorter and smaller and the burst are less noticeable.
But, again, my SR level and alignment are ok. I just imagine what happen in cinemas with even slightly difference in level between SR and SRD, or with older processors.
Bye
Marco
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-22-2008, 12:53 PM:
Bump.
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 05-22-2008, 01:47 PM:
And this helps exactly how? Most people know when they are buying a pirated DVD already. Wal-Mart doesn't sell pirated copies, well I don't think they do, or best buys. When a guy on the street offers to sell you a movie still in theaters on DVD and you are getting it for $5.00 you know it is a pirated copy, the cops know it is pirated everyone knows how does this help?
What it does do is a reverse of the intended effect. It make the honest people seeing it in the theater and paying their hard earned money to so think crap should have bought it from that guy in the parking lot.
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 09-06-2009, 12:12 PM:
It has been 471 days since the last post.