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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-28-2008, 03:20 AM:
Digital Cinema Buyers Guide
THX Certification Expands to More Than 500 Cinemark Theatres Screens in U.S.
March 11, 2008
Source: THX
THX Ltd. and Cinemark Holdings, Inc. today announced that Cinemark Theatres will add more than 200 THX Certified screens domestically, bringing the total number of Cinemark screens with THX certification to more than 500. Cinemark will be rolling out the THX certification program in major metropolitan areas across the United States, including Los Angeles, San Francisco and Denver.
"Cinemark and THX share a common vision of driving advancements in film exhibition. THX has a strong association with great movie experiences, and is instantly recognized by movie audiences around the world for sound and image excellence," said Tim Warner, President of Cinemark Holdings. "By extending THX certification to more than 500 of our theatres, it further communicates our commitment to delivering the best movie-going experience to our customers."
THX Certified cinemas are precisely engineered to meet THX requirements for sound and visual quality, focusing on surround sound and acoustic performance and projection technology. THX gets involved early in the design process, working with cinema architects and builders to ensure sound effects, music and dialogue can be accurately distributed throughout the cinema auditorium, and background noise from other cinemas, parking lots and lobby concessions do not distract from the feature presentation.
"With nearly 25 years of experience in cinema design and certification, THX has mastered the art of presenting high impact experiences in movie theaters," said Robert Hewitt, vice president of sales at THX. "THX has shared a long and successful partnership with Cinemark Theatres, having teamed with them to create some of the nation's premiere cinema venues, and we are thrilled to extend this relationship to more and more movie-goers around the country."
Moviegoers recognize the difference THX brings to the cinema experience. A recent Nielsen NRG study revealed that U.S. moviegoers associated THX with the best sound systems, excellent picture quality, the most advanced technologies and a more exciting movie-going experience.
[ 04-20-2008, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-28-2008, 04:30 AM:
Wow, where did that come from all of a sudden??? Kudos to Cinemark for taking the step. I just hope THX learned from their past such things as not permitting a chain tech to re-certify his own theaters so that the end result is not compromised. (I don't think Cinemark was ever guilty of that, but we all know other chains were.)
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-28-2008, 09:19 AM:
It is too bad that THX has really diluted its brand image lately. When it is possible to buy THX-certified computer speakers and VHS videotapes, it is hard to associate the "THX" logo with quality.
The good thing is that this is only really a marketing problem, and that theatres built to THX specifications really do have a good chance of having quality sound (though, sadly, not all do).
Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 03-28-2008, 10:45 AM:
I think it's great the Cinemark is committing to upgrading the experience where most other big chains are looking to cut costs without too much regard to quality.
quote: Brad Miller
I just hope THX learned from their past such things as not permitting a chain tech to re-certify his own theaters so that the end result is not compromised
I hope so too, but I'm not holding my breath - they need profit to the bottom line just like any other company and I'm sure past policy and procedures will continue (and that includes passing auditoriums their own techs show as failing).
Although I can speak to one experience where they eventually came back to a theatre and pushed them to get the auditoriums to meet spec (after the original post construction certificatoin they did not return for 3-4 years), but the company could not because in the design phase some value engineer changed the HVAC units on the big auditoriums (one big noisy unit instead of 2 quiet ones). Since that was in the dark years for cinemas (when several chains went bankrupt) the decision was to cut out the $30,000 yearly expense and concetrate on keeping the company afloat.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 03-28-2008, 11:27 AM:
In a market like here in Eugene, where two rival chains control the market (Regal & Cinemark), THX branding would seem like a definite plus. Regardless of how THX has been diluted by silly things like THX-Certified 1/2" computer speakers, the general public is still very aware that THX = Better. Just from observation I suspect Cinemark's attendance here has fallen off dramatically since Regal opened their new 15-plex a year ago. THX might give them a boost.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 03-28-2008, 06:28 PM:
One good thing that can't be 'taken away' is when an auditorium is designed with THX, there's a baffle wall, (or bafflette) good basic auditorium design, isolation between auditoriums, proper amp wattage, speaker dispersion, etc., etc. So even if a chain decides to stop paying the licensing fee and THX pulls the crossover, they are still left with a pretty good sounding auditorium. OTOH, I never saw THX take the same amount of interest in the picture quality.
I don't think THX makes the crossover/monitor anymore. Last I heard they were just telling people to buy a DCM.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-28-2008, 09:03 PM:
THX no longer sells/licenses their crossover anymore. The crossovers are now on the approved THX list now...the new DCMs are on it as are som dbx Drive Rack stuff.
Steve
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-29-2008, 01:29 AM:
I can't help but wonder if chains like Warren Theaters (operating in Kansas and now Oklahoma) are part of what is putting pressure on Cinemark to get its proverbial shit together.
Their Tinseltown theater in Oklahoma City is way the hell down on the list of theaters I would consider in priority of visiting to see a movie. The new all-THX Warren Moore 14-plex would be #1 by a very wide margin, followed by the Harkins site in Bricktown, and then the AMC 24-plex on OKC's north side and then maybe the Tinseltown location off of MLK.
Of course, I still have the option of the Carmike 8-plex right here in town with one "officially" certified THX auditorium, along with another featuring the exact same equipment (including the THX built crossover).
Could this be something that home theater and stuff like Blu-ray is suddenly making an effect on getting movie theater bean counters to pay more attention to put emphasis on show quality?
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-29-2008, 04:52 AM:
Let's go back & remember when Cinemark used "our own picture formats." "Hollywood will change to suit us." That is not too many years ago. Many of these theatres are still cranking. Most have Cinema Film Systems consoles.
Back on topic; THX will be remembered for bringing back the Western Electric baffle wall & reeducating the theatre owners on what good sound and picture are. This was standard-issue stuff in the 30's and 40's. Even non-THX theatres are better now because of Tom Holman. Louis
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-29-2008, 12:02 PM:
quote: Louis Bornwasser
Let's go back & remember when Cinemark used "our own picture formats." "Hollywood will change to suit us." That is not too many years ago.
Huh? Care to refresh my memory on this?
Posted by Scott D. Neff (Member # 185) on 03-29-2008, 12:21 PM:
I think another thing to consider about Cinemark going THX is that a number of Century Theatres, whether certified or not, were built and likely continue to be built with all the THX requirements in mind. I'm sure now that Cinemark's construction department has handled a number of Century builds, they've seen that it's not unreasonable to build the baffle wall and get the right equipment so they can make this move.
I'll be surprised to see how many original Cinemark builds get certified vs. how many Centurys. Then, of those Centurys how many were originally certified vs. newer builds that Century stopped certifing at.
Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 03-29-2008, 03:19 PM:
The Cinemark (now Movie Tavern) in Hilliard (Columbus), Ohio had 2 THX rooms when it was built, and they were some of the sweetest sounding rooms I've ever been in. That was when THX meant something. Marcus had some THX rooms, and those also had superb sound.
An 8-plex in Downtown Columbus had (and may still have but not advertised) THX certification, and those rooms sound very dry. I don't go there for that reason.
I really thought that THX was dead. Glad to see someone keeping it up and hopefully getting good sound.
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-29-2008, 03:40 PM:
Brad: I believe they built 1.66 ratio screens with scope as a strip through the center. Tim Reed "knows" more than I. Louis
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 03-29-2008, 04:01 PM:
was this pre 1990? None of the Cinemark locations that I know of use that method. I don't know about any locations that were part of another chain that they purchased. It could have been that way in some of the old premier built theatres that they picked up back in 1989.
one thing that is interesting is that Cinemark built a lot of their theatres with some of the THX specs in mind. One of them was not putting the HVAC units right over the theatre auditoriums. They have been putting them all over the booth area of the buildings.
Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 04-02-2008, 10:31 PM:
I hope these plans also include projectioni...er...Usher "B's" that understand THX and run the booth as it should be. I think this is wonderful news, just so long as those showing the films keep the whole idea of THX in mind. I'd love to see our Cinemark here get a couple THX screens. We have two auditoriums that do have the baffle wall, which is a good start.
AJG
Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 04-03-2008, 12:34 AM:
quote: Scott Norwood
It is too bad that THX has really diluted its brand image lately. When it is possible to buy THX-certified computer speakers and VHS videotapes, it is hard to associate the "THX" logo with quality.
I still remember seeing The Firm at Mann's Cherry Creek 8 in Denver. When the THX trailer played silently, the entire crowd burst into laugher when the phrase "The Audience is Listening" appeared. (Later, they managed to break Schindler's List on opening day.)
Years later, at UA's Galaxy Theatre in San Francisco, they apparently had their speakers wired incorrectly. When the little Pixar robot flew to the back right, his sounds came from the back left, and vice versa. I complained. When I went back week's later, it was still wrong. How do you get that wrong? (30 miles from THX HQ, no less!)
I appreciate that THX raised awareness and helped improve theatres a long time ago, to me as a movie-goer, it has been meaningless for some time.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-03-2008, 02:03 AM:
Did you guys ever have people thinking THX was a sound format?
I still remember a kid in class with me in HS telling me my theater wasn't as good as another for using Dolby Digital instead of THX. I tried to explain to him that THX was a specification for the design of a room and equipment used and that the competition used the same formats we did. Even after having another classmate, who worked in the booth at said THX-approved competition, completely agreed with me the guy didn't believe.
Granted, this probably happened less often with places that had only one house approved.
Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-03-2008, 08:23 AM:
quote: Chris Slycord
Did you guys ever have people thinking THX was a sound format?
The theaters here used to advertise "With THX Sound" so you can imagine the number of people who were mislead. And, considering the theaters, believed that THX meant crappy sound at that
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-03-2008, 08:29 AM:
Ha... I recently did some service work at a Cinemark(ex-Century) that is all THX but according to staff projectionists hasn't had a full booth go-through in over a year. How it is all still running is beyond me... and this is, er at least was a very busy location.
Mark
Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 04-03-2008, 12:35 PM:
I had a "colleged" assistant manager ask me if a new release we got was a THX print: I told him no.
(I am referring to college grads in business who was started as an assistant to get "quality" people running theatres. I was not impressed with the program.)
Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 04-03-2008, 07:31 PM:
quote: Chris Slycord
Did you guys ever have people thinking THX was a sound format?
How's this - we had someone ask us to "turn the THX up" . . . . "you know, the knob labelled THX" . . . . . yes, these are exact quotes.
Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 04-04-2008, 01:29 PM:
We were showing a basketball game in a theater the other day and a customer complained that the sound wasn't in THX. Besides the simple fact that our theater isn't THX certified, it's a live sports broadcast! Did they expect the sound of the announcer to be rotating around their heads like in some digital sound trailer!? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Also, the new Moore, OK Warren theater has "Digital THX":
quote:
The Moore Warren is the first movie theatre in the world to incorporate all digital cinema and THX technology!
The official THX site seems to be down at the moment, anyone know what's the difference between digital THX and analog THX? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-04-2008, 01:51 PM:
You forgot the mix the "Dolby" brand in there somehow (at least I'm pretty sure Warren Theaters chose Dolby Digital Cinema for the Moore 14).
How would that work in the ads? Hmm. "Digital Dolby Cinema THX?" Eh. "THX Cinema Dolby Digital?" Nah. "THX/Dolby Digital Cinema?" That sounds a little more like it. But it probably needs to be "Super Phiggidy Digital THX Dee-Cinema de la Dolby!"
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-04-2008, 08:37 PM:
quote:
Also, the new Moore, OK Warren theater has "Digital THX":
quote:The Moore Warren is the first movie theatre in the world to incorporate all digital cinema and THX technology!
The official THX site seems to be down at the moment, anyone know what's the difference between digital THX and analog THX? [Big Grin]
Your post makes no sense whatsoever. There is no reference (explicit or implied) to "digital THX."
When it says that the theater is the first to "incorporate digital cinema and THX technology" it is quite clearly referring to the use of both equipment for digital cinema and THX.
In other words: previously, no digital auditoriums were THX approved for their sound/design.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-04-2008, 09:16 PM:
The "Digital THX" thing is another ads that confuse issue where terms are, perhaps deliberately, misused.
The boast of being the first all "digital THX" multiplex merely gives me the impression the Moore Warren 14 is the first multiplex in the nation to offer digital cinema and THX certification for every auditorium on the site. If that's really true, I find it quite surprising for such a thing to have taken this much time to happen.
Are there any other multiplex sites in the US with digital projection and THX certification in every auditorium? Carmike has lots of all d-cinema theaters, but none that are all-THX.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-04-2008, 10:53 PM:
My mistake:
I didn't realize that the warren theatres site actually referred to this as "digital thx." The only thing that came up on a quick google search were articles saying it was the first "all-digital THX-equipped theater."
They should change that icon to say something not misleading (something as simple as having it say "digital + thx").
Posted by Danial Simmonds (Member # 4638) on 04-08-2008, 12:51 AM:
Everyone here thinks THX is the speakers, amplifiers, sound processor everything... The cinema magazine also craze about THX as a "Sound System"...
Since i started working in cinemas many of my friends asked me does this cinema use THX sound system? I just cant help it and laugh... How more misleading can they be Digital THX?
I think they should put Certified THX Quality or something... Well its just marketing anyway.
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-08-2008, 07:38 AM:
Time for the new "THY" sound system.....not your average THX. But better...."it's digital!!!" Louis
Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 04-08-2008, 09:05 PM:
Are these totally new or existing? If existing, how can they roll out 200 new THX screens quickly unless those theaters were pre-designed with decay time, noise characteristics and HVAC systems that already met THX specs?
That's assuming that the THX certification still means something.
Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 04-11-2008, 08:47 PM:
quote: Martin Brooks
Are these totally new or existing? If existing, how can they roll out 200 new THX screens quickly unless those theaters were pre-designed with decay time, noise characteristics and HVAC systems that already met THX specs?
If they are existing sites, I'm guess they are Century built screens from the last 10 years. Century built a lot of "All THX" multis. Regal could do the same thing with their ActIII theaters.
THX also has a new network/Crossover called the D20. I wonder if existing sites will need to change over to the new x-over, or if they can keep their DBX or 3417 monitors.
EDIT: I guess the D20 is nothing new and has been out for years.
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-12-2008, 08:23 PM:
The D20 never made it to cinemas.
The first THX hardware was the crossover cards in DBX frames, then the cards in a CE frame, this was 3417, then the D1138 which was a joint project between THX and BACP.
Presently, they use QSC DCM's for the crossover/monitor.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-12-2008, 09:15 PM:
The crossovers are now treated like other components...either they are, or are not, on the approved list.
Steve
Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 04-13-2008, 02:40 AM:
quote: Sam D. Chavez
The D20 never made it to cinemas.
That explains why I couldn't find much info on it.
I've only seen one 1138 unit in the field, and I was impressed with the styling and build of it. I still think the 3417 is one of the best sounding booth monitors out there (when it's not buzzing).
So, if a theater has all THX approved equipment, and can meet all of the auditorium criteria, they can be certified without purchasing additional equipment? Also, Have any of the criteria changed?
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-13-2008, 07:18 AM:
I suppose it is possible though the auditorium, unless carefully designed, will likely need improvements to achieve the proper isolation and the THX baffle wall (constructed to their specs...not just any wall or bafflette) will likely need to be added. THX also puts requirements on the wiring (gauge as well as how the surrounds are wired and the load presented to the amps) may need some changes.
The room will need initial certification plus annual recertifications.
Steve
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-13-2008, 12:33 PM:
We sold exactly 991 of the D1138's during the life of the project. A lot of them went to emerging markets like Mexico and South America. We used two Audax 3.5 inch speakers to improve the sound but by this time there was nobody left in the booth to notice.
The 3417 was designed in part by Tom Holman and had something of a tuned chamber and a bit more room for a reasonable speaker. Later 3417's had rattle problems. Also, the original speaker went out of production and the replacement one, although of good quality, did not sound nearly as good.
Oh for the days when the design of a booth monitor actually was considered a priority.
Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 04-13-2008, 01:41 PM:
I forgot about the baffle wall.
Can anyone tell me how much more cost this would add to the front ends of the house on a new construction job?
Posted by Dave Cutler (Member # 515) on 04-14-2008, 10:06 PM:
What I found most interesting about this was that it specifically mentions Denver. There are only 3 Cinemark locations in the Denver Area. Aurora, Lakewood BelMar and my location, Boulder. Aurora and Lakewood BelMar are already THX certified, as they are Century locations. Century - Boulder is a hybrid Cinemark/Century, opened 17 Aug 07. Century designed it before the buyout, and Cinemark built it. It's a pretty cool theatre actually, so I hope we're on the list.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-14-2008, 10:33 PM:
Well the other day I walked past a Radio Shack and saw a whole rack of speaker cable, video cables, etc and the THX logo was emblazened on all the boxes. THX Speaker Cables!
Sooooo....if THX is approving speaker cable, then it follows that any theatre that doesn't have THX official approved speaker cabling can't be THX rooms!
It's crap like that which makes the brand meaningless.
Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 04-15-2008, 09:23 AM:
I don't understand the conclusion that since the THX brand appears on consumer equipment, that then the commercial applications are useless.
Does the fact that the Dolby Digital logo appears on the crappy $29 DVD player at WalMart mean that Dolby Digital in the cinema is crap?
When I wired my home theater (in-wall wiring, that is), I investigated using reels of standard CL-grade wiring vs. the Monster Cable THX-certified CL-rated variety from a local dealer. The cost differential wasn't that great, and I could buy only as much as I needed off the reel. The THX certification of cables gets into the ability of the cabling to be pulled through walls without stretching, binding, or failing from the strain, and the THX interconnects I've used have very good connectors on them. I was actually at the Chicago CES where Tomlinson Holman and Anthony Grimani were discussing whether they should consider certifying cabling. Even though I had nothing to contribute, I always appreciated their willingness to let me be a fly on the wall.
I don't get into the oxygen-free, massage our electrons using mysterium glycosphate compounds, and other voodoo crap like that, but if you look past the over-active marketing by companies like Monster, they have a good product that, if chosen properly, isn't all that much of a price premium over the bargain bin stuff at monoprice.com.
Personally, I welcome the news that THX is growing. The public needs a brand that they can use to distinguish one presentation from the next.
The kicker, of course, is that the brand has to mean something, so one would hope that it's not just a marketing sticker, and that someone at THX is doing more than collecting a check in the mail.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-15-2008, 12:04 PM:
quote: Scott Jentsch
I don't understand the conclusion that since the THX brand appears on consumer equipment, that then the commercial applications are useless.
Does the fact that the Dolby Digital logo appears on the crappy $29 DVD player at WalMart mean that Dolby Digital in the cinema is crap?
It has NOTHING to do with it being on consumer equipment and EVERYTHING to do with them being willing to put it on ANY AND ALL consumer equipment. Hell, my mom & dad sent me some games for my XBOX that they got used... one of them (Madden 2006) is a "THX Certified Game" which means the game is good? This kind of certification is meaningless to people.
And the fact that Dolby Digital is similar in both cinema and DVDs makes your comparison useless.
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-15-2008, 12:33 PM:
quote: Chris Slycord
"THX Certified Game" which means the game is good ?
How did you draw that conclusion? THX Game Certification is related to technical game production issues. It has nothing to do with rating the game itself. I mean before you attack it, at least know what it is you're attacking. That's like saying a movie with a soundtrack produced under THX supervision has to automatically be a good movie. We all know that ain't the case.
quote:
THX sets standards for game development studio acoustics, background noise and lighting, providing developers a means to present a consistent visual and sound experience across a variety of game systems and consoles.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-15-2008, 01:56 PM:
Maybe I'm being cynical but I see it more as a way for THX to get $ than them definitively certifying that a game has better technical qualities compared to its competition.
And honestly I didn't know what THX certification meant with respect to a game. But even knowing what it means now I still see it as a pretty meaningless distinction. Plus, if they're certifying content like this why are they only certifying cinema equipment and not the movies themselves? ![[sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-15-2008, 02:38 PM:
What I find ultimately distasteful is the fact many ethics of business and quality control have stooped to such low levels that something like a certification process is even needed in the first place.
Honestly, who really needs to deserve some sort of badge for just doing their damned job correctly? Can someone help me out with that?
That's sort of like the Chris Rock joke where he rags on the comments of trashy people. A lady snaps a "Z" and boasts, "well, I raise my kids!" You're supposed to raise your kids! People are also supposed to do their damned jobs competently.
Unfortunately, the sad fact of life is we live in a world where the preferred business model is doing things as cheap, half-assed and lacking in effort as possible. And that anti-ethic is pushed into the negative as far as possible before customers get pissed off enough to switch brands.
Enter the need of having a third party look over the shoulders of a business to make sure they're delivering a satisfactory product. That's sort of what THX has meant to movie theaters, and as of late, digital video transfers to Laserdisc and DVD (haven't seen any THX certified Blu-ray discs yet).
Again, THX itself is a business and is a business Creative Labs purchased from George Lucas. Does Lucas still have some stake in the company? Business interests of pleasing stock holders often run counter to the interest of maintaining high quality, even if the company (THX) is all about enforcing certain standards of quality over various aspects of how movies are produced and presented to viewers.
In the end, the THX brand has definitely suffered from some cheapening by the increased variety of consumer products carrying its logo (all the way down to computer speakers), not to mention the fact some THX movie theaters really aren't all that great.
It's just too bad that great picture and sound quality is not a mission critical item for commercial movie theaters in general. The very need for an organization like THX just confirms the industry's guilt in that regard.
Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 04-15-2008, 07:40 PM:
THX is a good idea, but they get their money from the same people they are supposed to be overseeing. This means owners who falsify certs and don't keep up the equipment. It just can't work.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-15-2008, 09:36 PM:
Speaker cables are speaker cables. What parameters are THX certifying in consumer speaker cables that's any different than speaker cables in a theatre? That 12 awg gauge is actually 12 awg? My point is, if THX's claim is that it is necessary to certify speaker cable to meet whatever criteria THX thinks qualifies it for a certain level of quality, then it follows that it should be equally necessary for the speaker cables that are to be used in a fully THX level system to meet that same level of THX benchmark quality. How come theatre that are supposed to be THX certified get a pass on their cables? I am pushing this to the absurd because I think certifying speaker cable is a joke to begin with and nothing more than diluting the THX concept and ripping off the consumer.
If THX truly believes it is possible for the consumer to get his hands on some sort of crap quality cable, then it is also possible for the theatre installer to get the same crap quality cable. Or does THX say, yah, but the theatre installer would never install crap cable so we don't have to look at that?
Either there is some compelling reason why speaker cable needs to meet some level of quality and therefore it's a legitimate issue for THX certification, or it doesn't. If it really is an issue, then a THX theatre should have everything including its cables THX certified. If it ISN'T an issue, then branding consumer cable as THX in this instance is nothing more than a pathetic business scam. They can't have it both ways.
Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 04-18-2008, 03:02 PM:
As I said, THX certification of speaker cabling got into whether or not the wire used was appropriate for the task (the simple stuff, like is it made from copper?), but more importantly, it covered how easily the cabling could be pulled through walls, and how the insulation handled being pulled through walls.
I tried to find reference materials on the THX web site, but couldn't find anything that referenced the standards they use to certify cabling.
quote: John Walsh
THX is a good idea, but they get their money from the same people they are supposed to be overseeing. This means owners who falsify certs and don't keep up the equipment. It just can't work.
Paying for certification is common in the manufacturing business. When I worked at a telecommunications company, we paid UL to do certifications all the time. We sent them stuff, they burned it up, we paid them. That's how the process works.
Where the line gets crossed is when the certifying agency allows the product to be certified by the same company producing it. That's an inherent conflict of interest, and it's just asking for abuse.
If THX actually allowed this to happen and theaters abused it, then yes, it was a horribly bad idea. Crap like that endangers the credibility of the entire certification process and dilutes its value, as can be seen by the disdain shown by many members on this forum.
In concept, though, having a certification for movie theaters is a good idea. Properly executed, that certification should give moviegoers a way to find excellent presentations, and it would serve as a differentiator for those theaters that have gone through the effort of building their cinemas correctly and using the right equipment. It should follow, then, that any theater that has invested in THX certification would also give a damn about maintaining the other elements of the moviegoing experience as well, but one can never underestimate the ability for people and businesses to be incompetent.
Can a theater be as good or better than a THX certified theater? Yes, I believe so. The question is, how is the average moviegoer supposed to know? Until something comes along that's equal to, or better than, THX certification, it's the best we've got.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-18-2008, 08:42 PM:
quote: Scott Jentsch
In concept, though, having a certification for movie theaters is a good idea. Properly executed, that certification should give moviegoers a way to find excellent presentations, and it would serve as a differentiator for those theaters that have gone through the effort of building their cinemas correctly and using the right equipment. It should follow, then, that any theater that has invested in THX certification would also give a damn about maintaining the other elements of the moviegoing experience as well
It does not follow.
Based on your idea essentially if I show that I care about one aspect of film then I care about them all. So those people who love torus screens prove their love for a good picture. And you infer that they MUST also care about the best sound too right? But anyone who's seen a movie with a torus screen knows the sound doesn't end up being "right."
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-18-2008, 08:52 PM:
Did you just imply that a Torus screen was good to any degree for the picture??? ![[puke]](graemlins/puke.gif)
Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 04-18-2008, 11:46 PM:
That was the concept of the Torus wasn't it??
To provide a perfectly matched surface to the focal characteristics of the lens. And also without the perfs affecting the picture?
I don't know the validity of it, but I do recall a fellow tech complaining about how it required a vacuum to work properly?
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-19-2008, 12:09 AM:
Torus screens, just like all curved screens, cause geometric distortion of the image and wash out the colors and contrast. I know there are many believers out there, but curved screens suck. The Torus is even worse because not only is it destroying the image, but it also destroys the sound. There is a reason why AMC no longer builds them.
Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 04-19-2008, 10:20 AM:
quote: Scott Jentsch
I don't get into the oxygen-free, massage our electrons using mysterium glycosphate compounds, and other voodoo crap like that, but if you look past the over-active marketing by companies like Monster, they have a good product that, if chosen properly, isn't all that much of a price premium over the bargain bin stuff at monoprice.com.
Personally, I welcome the news that THX is growing. The public needs a brand that they can use to distinguish one presentation from the next.
The problem with Monster (and other companies like it) is that they don't just market hype - they market lies. And while some of their products are well made, their product line is incredibly overpriced - their top of the line RCA cable lists for $1500 for a 6 foot pair. This is just taking advantage of the insanely rich (or the richly insane.)
The only time I have seen Monster Cable at a reasonable price is when retailers that sell the medium priced lines have gone out of business. The other problem with Monster is that they have far too many different lines of cable. I count approximately 28 different lines of RCA connects (and that doesn't count different cable lengths.)
In addition, it's not that THX certification of cable couldn't make some sense if THX tested and certified lines of Monster Cable and permitted Monster to stick something on the packaging to indicate this. But that's not what Monster did - they came out with a separate line of cable that is "THX Certified" and priced (for a 4' cable) at $100, $80, $50 and $15 a pair. So this cable is THX-worthy and the $1500 cable isn't? Both the $15 a pair and the $100 a pair are equally THX worthy? And if all THX is is certifying that you can pull the cable through a wall, than that's not enough and I believe it's misleading, especially for lengths of cable that you would never pull through a wall (like 4').
As far as THX goes, I always liked the idea of move theatre certification because even it wasn't perfectly implemented, I thought it would have forced a competition between theaters to improve their presentation quality. But there were several problems:
- Theaters in New York never promoted the fact that they were THX.
- There was too wide a variance in the way that theaters that used THX sounded. I found that NYC theaters that were THX certified never sounded anywhere as good as the San Francisco and Los Angeles theaters that were certified.
- Theaters let their certifications lapse.
- THX seemed to have a fair level of success on the west coast, but there were few THX theaters in New York.
And now that THX is no longer owned by Lucas, who knows what THX certification really means at this point and how they enforce it.
Some years back, SMPTE tried to implement a program where SMPTE members would evaluate theaters. I think it was even supposed to get you free admission. Theaters were supposed to post a little notification in the ticket booth if they participated, but I only found one theater in Manhattan that did. I can't remember what SMPTE did with the reviews - whether there was any type of certification or not.
Not in terms of certification, but in terms of reviewing theater quality (and not that the public at large knows anything), maybe Zagat's should take this on. Even though they'd probably get stupid comments like "you can't hear the surrounds during dialog-only segments" and "I came in a little late and they wouldn't rewind the tape for me" and "they should have played this in THX instead of Dobly (sic)", etc., it still might push theater owners to think more about sound and picture quality than marquee and concession quality, which is where they usually put the emphasis.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-19-2008, 11:10 AM:
quote:
Did you just imply that a Torus screen was good to any degree for the picture??? [puke]
Well I know they at least make the screen brighter and supposedly help with pincushioning with for scope. Regardless, that wasn't my point. And if you think I was saying I like Torus screens, you're wrong.
But still; that wasn't my point.
Certifying a sound system means you care about sound or don't really but think more people will come in if you get certification. You could get a certification and when something goes wrong with the sound system just leave it running at a lower level because you don't care all that much. And you only fix the problem if someone from THX says "You need to fix this or we won't certify." And by that time you've already saved money so it's no big deal.
And even if it shows you care about sound, that doesn't mean you care about anything else. I've seen theaters upgrade sound systems and leave poor-performing lamphouses in place.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-19-2008, 02:09 PM:
Torus screens reflect more light because they don't have perforations in them to let the sound through. There is more surface area. Regardless that is not the solution. The solution is to put in a larger bulb, not to take the cheap route out and put in solid screens.
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-20-2008, 12:16 AM:
Are Torus screens really any cheaper?
I may be wrong, but don't Torus screens require some sort of vacuum or something to suck in that curved appearance? If so, wouldn't that extra step cost a decent amount of money?
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-20-2008, 12:44 AM:
Yes it does[ediit]require a vacuum installation[/edit]. But obviously you only have to buy one of those to last many years which gives you many years worth of being able to purchase cheaper bulbs. At least that's how I assume it would work but don't have anything to back it up; just my guess.
[ 04-20-2008, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Chris Slycord ]
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-20-2008, 09:53 AM:
About the "Monster (C) (R) (TM)" Cables...
I used to get amplifiers repaired at a local music store chain that did a good job repairing and rebuilding amps at a central facility. The thing is that you have to drop off and pick up the amps at one of the stores. One of the times I went in the clerk was wearing a "Monster (C) (R) (TM)" cable shirt, and they had a huge display of them behind the counter. I asked the clerk what made those cables superior and he answered me "...They improve the frequency response..." so I told him that I had a Real Time Analyser/pink noise generator and a calibrated mic in my trunk. I proposed setting up an amp and speaker and measuring the frequency response with "regular" cables, and then measure it with the "Monster (C) (R) (TM)" Cables and see how much of an improvement there is. Suprisingly he declined.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-20-2008, 11:12 AM:
Ok Guys... Here IS "The Naked Truth About Speaker Cables"
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-20-2008, 12:41 PM:
As Sam Chavez once told me "There are those who think Monster Cable really helps(50%) and those who think the first half are crazy." Louis
Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 04-20-2008, 07:26 PM:
quote: Darryl Spicer
THX Ltd. and Cinemark Holdings, Inc. today announced that Cinemark Theatres will add more than 200 THX Certified screens domestically, bringing the total number of Cinemark screens with THX certification to more than 500. Cinemark will be rolling out the THX certification program in major metropolitan areas across the United States, including Los Angeles, San Francisco and Denver.
All Century markets where Century did all THX builds, unless you count Colorado Springs and Fort Collins as "Denver".
Meaning, they're getting certification on multiplexes already built around the THX standard that didn't renew when Cinemark took over.
I wonder if THX initiated this idea to Cinemark at little to no cost so that THX would gain cinema exposure again, which in turn would help their home certification business.
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-21-2008, 12:46 AM:
I don't remember saying that, but I'll take it.
There is no end to nonsense regarding audio cable, particularly, speaker cable.
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 04-21-2008, 09:23 AM:
Thank you for the link Mr. Mark! It was very educational.
Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 04-22-2008, 11:54 AM:
quote: Martin Brooks
Not in terms of certification, but in terms of reviewing theater quality (and not that the public at large knows anything), maybe Zagat's should take this on. Even though they'd probably get stupid comments like "you can't hear the surrounds during dialog-only segments" and "I came in a little late and they wouldn't rewind the tape for me" and "they should have played this in THX instead of Dobly (sic)", etc., it still might push theater owners to think more about sound and picture quality than marquee and concession quality, which is where they usually put the emphasis.
There have been a couple of efforts that I'm aware of, including a group of organized individuals that were going to take it on. I don't remember the name, but it was something Cinema Technology Experts Group, or something like that. The TAP program was around for a while, but that seemed to wither away.
I think the challenge in soliciting viewer feedback is that you get everything from an educated person giving some good feedback, to someone else complaining that the movie sucked. The hard part is in keeping the signal-to-noise ratio as high as possible, and in a public, un-moderated environment, it's like holding back the sea with a teaspoon in hand.
A public theater comment area is something I've been contemplating for The BigScreen Cinema Guide for more than two years (maybe more). I'm not sure that there is any sure-fire way to keep the quality level high, and I think the only way to make it a good service is to get it out there and fine-tune it over time. No matter how many safeguards against abuse I put in, someone will figure a way around it. Maybe I'll just slap a "beta" tag on it, and then it won't be a problem if it's not perfect. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
The public needs a way to find which theaters treat their customers well. If no official organization is going to do it, then it's up to the public to do it themselves and sifting through the dross is just a price of admission.
quote: Chris Slycord
It does not follow.
Based on your idea essentially if I show that I care about one aspect of film then I care about them all. So those people who love torus screens prove their love for a good picture. And you infer that they MUST also care about the best sound too right? But anyone who's seen a movie with a torus screen knows the sound doesn't end up being "right."
Yes, I think that any theater that is spending thousands of dollars per year on THX certification, and put in the extra effort during construction to do it by THX standards, it follows that they should extend that to the other parts of their approach to their business.
Obviously, some theaters don't, and that's why I added the disclaimer about incompetence always being a factor. Some places just seem to go out of their way to figure out how to do a bad job at what they do. I don't get it, but I guess that's why I don't own a movie theater. I know it's not possible to be perfect in every aspect.
I have poured 13 years of my life into The BigScreen Cinema Guide, and there are still issues that shouldn't be there. But I figure I'm making progress, and I'm never afraid to put the issues out in front of my readers. How many theaters have a running blog on their web sites, where they talk about the things they are doing to improve going to the movies at their theater? How many open up a dialog with their customers to see what those customers are looking for? How many realize that their customers might actually care about the movie-going experience?
In the end, any theater that pays for THX certification, but doesn't do other things to excel at showing movies is wasting their money. The THX logo means nothing if the presentation is poor, and it's not going to make up for the fact that the bathrooms look horrible or the popcorn is popped a week ahead of time. If the staff looks like they are serving time in prison, the THX logo on the auditorium entrance doesn't mean much.
One would hope that if a theater is paying money for the THX certification, they actually give a damn, and these other things aren't present.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-22-2008, 12:14 PM:
quote: Scott Jentsch
Yes, I think that any theater that is spending thousands of dollars per year on THX certification, and put in the extra effort during construction to do it by THX standards, it follows that they should extend that to the other parts of their approach to their business.
You're assuming that the people who put the effort into the construction are even in the picture now.
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