This is topic horz scratches in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 01-02-2007, 04:25 PM:
 
This thread is a continuation of a current discussion that started here.

Adam,sorry but it doesn't work that way i cant tell managment who to put in the booth 18 year old booth people really don't care and if so they don't stay that long.the problem is with the roller.Gerard,sorry this is a emulsion scratch i know what is causing it i need to find a way to correct it.when i did show the christie boys what was happening he looked at it and scratched his head in disbelief.Adam the keeper can be problamatic on this issue
i am u/l some pics of the scratching in progress and how it is a roller issue.also the christie tec had to go to Florida for the same kind of complaint they are having.the platter will run just fine with this roller in this position you will note that the film is now riding on the edge of the roller thus causing a horz scratch on the emulsion side of the film.and it will show up on the next presentation of this film.also note how high up the film retainer is this allows the film to over shoot the inside of the roller and end up were it shouldn't be.


[ 01-03-2007, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-02-2007, 04:52 PM:
 
That is not a design flaw but operator incompetance
 

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Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 01-02-2007, 05:09 PM:
 
gordon correct operator incompetance my be but the roller clearly is the problem
but that doesn't help me here.i need to make it dummy proof and i will.i am retraining booth people to thread old school so the very last thing they do is put the film on the roller and and set the take up.part of the problem is the way the booth people thread.they pull tension after threading and not actually going to the take up arm and just start the show and i do think it is at this point that the roller some how twists and the film gets in the wrong position.
i also re worked some of the rollers so that it hugs the keeper and it seems to do the trick film doesn't over extend now i will keep you film tech updated on this issue
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-02-2007, 05:27 PM:
 
Thanks for the picture. It looks to me like there is a small roll pin that keeps the roller from automatically adjusting to straight.

Remove this by gripping with a side cutter and leveraging it out; then reassemble. If not........then....

The top of the turquois plastic could be cut off with a hack saw to allow the roller to fully swivel. They used the wrong part to build your platters. Louis
 

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Posted by Darren Powell (Member # 3914) on 01-02-2007, 06:58 PM:
 
get a different make platter lol

and that rubbish about
Quote - 'i cant tell managment who to put in the booth 18 year old booth people really don't care and if so they don't stay that long'
That is so sad for all the 18Yr old projectionists who do work hard.
I started projection wen i was 17, am now 20 and supervising the running of a 4 screen booth.
i also work with 70mm film on a theme park ride..
i love my job and always want to learn more !
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-02-2007, 07:01 PM:
 
a point of clarification does the roller rotate on the pivot far enough to allow the film to lie flat?
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 01-02-2007, 07:07 PM:
 
Dejavu, the feeling you've seen this topic before. This is like the 3rd topic started by the same guy about the same problem. Why can't you just reply in the original topic? Why start a new one? See "What would cause these scratches?", "horizontal cratches", and then this one. Well, he didn't start the first one, but he could have continues there. I think he first asked about it there.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-03-2007, 12:13 AM:
 
The only problem with that situation above is that someone has OVERTIGHTENED the bolt that runs through the arm into the top of the roller's keeper bracket too tight! Get a pair of vice grip pliers, clamp onto the top of the bolt and loosen it just a little bit so that it isn't so ridiculously tight.

Whoever installed those platters or has been tinkering with them in the problem. Do that and your scratching will go away.

Even more important do not create a new thread for an existing discussion!
 

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Posted by Alex Grueneberg (Member # 2652) on 01-03-2007, 09:04 AM:
 
This actually happened to me the other day for the first time. Good thing I always check the platter rollers or print #1 ( ) of Pursuit of happyness would have been toast! Is this a common way prints get scratched on Christie platters? At the booth I'm at we recently lost a bunch of good people in the booth and now some 7 of 18 prints are scratched. I'm trying to figure out where they are all coming from. It’s hard when no one else cares.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-03-2007, 03:30 PM:
 
I still don't see how a rotating roller is making horizontal scratches. If anything they would be diagonal, and pretty sharply diagonal at that. Maybe Joseph, you could post a picture of scratched film.

But -- saying this problem is Christie's fault is like saying that it's Brad's fault that Joseph keeps starting new discussions on the same subject because the Reply button is right next to the New Topic button.
 

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Posted by Gilles Elbhar (Member # 3719) on 01-03-2007, 05:44 PM:
 
Horizontal scratch can not coming from a rotating roller.
- Scratch from a roller are "linear"

Horizontal scratch can coming from regular contact between film and projectors parts...

Something is defective with print loading.

 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-03-2007, 05:59 PM:
 
quote "Horizontal scratch can not coming from a rotating roller."
sorry but that isn't true
when sitting on the flange it will give a horizontal scratch usually with a curve
 

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Posted by Gilles Elbhar (Member # 3719) on 01-04-2007, 05:15 PM:
 
Yes it is right !

But Analysis was on - Horizontal scratch - only.
Not with a curve.
 

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Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 01-05-2007, 04:51 PM:
 
sorry about the new posts,the roller is in fact causing the horizontal scratches i sent a pic of the roller it is cocked and the film is riding on the roller emulsion side it is making contact with the almost center of the film causing the hz scratching.i am putting in a booth monitor in for a month and i am re calibrating some of the take up rollers so the retainer is closer to the film so about .045 i think it will help alot.I would like to also say that although christie is not to blame totally but it is apparent to them this roller is a problem and is in my opinion it is the wrong roller for this take up arm,i have never seen this many prints scratched i have been training for my union and other theaters on aw3 platters never had this problem before.i do think it is happing alot but not reported.

Alex, this is exacly how the hrz scratches are being created hard for any one to see but i assure you that new people in the booth will indeed make this mistake of not looking at this roller after they start a show.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-05-2007, 07:51 PM:
 
Joseph, what did I just tell you in my post above?

If you cannot pay attention, I hope you leave the booth very quickly because you will never be a good projectionist if you can not resolve this incredibly simple problem that has NOTHING to blame toward Christie.

Also by using the Bevan Poos with a platter ring, you are setting yourself up for a tangled mess whenever a print slides and the platter ring tries to do it's job. Read the instructions.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-05-2007, 08:06 PM:
 
..or just tuck the last three feet of the film under the film roll like the majority of us booth people do .. we've never had any problems doing this practice..

Prob, why he did listen to you, Brad - is that either he doesn't know what you're talking about, OR is that they are just too plum scared to do any sort of adjustments on the machinery being just booth operator just doing one simple task - and that is the simple 'lace and start' operations. For I can see that as well that the roller bracket cannot swivel on that return arm and a quarter turn on the lucknut underneath will definitely allow the assembly to swivel.
 

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Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 01-06-2007, 06:41 PM:
 
sorry brad but never had a problem with the platter other than the hz scratches.i was one of the installers of these platters nothing is to tight everything is just fine i really don't under stand why
every one doesn't under stand what is happening with this roller
Alex Grueneberg reported 7 out of 18 hz scratched prints.i have installed many of these platters none of the old style rollers did this kind of damage. Bevan Poos has nothing to do with the roller scratching the film never had a print slide brain raps are rare.
strange the make up tables still use the old style rollers with the correct retainers.i have fixed the rollers on 3 platters now the film will stay on the roller and if it does come of it now will drop the fail safes rather than put hz scratches on the film
problem is i have 18 more to go!
also i would like to say to Darren Powell i commend you i was showing the god father on reel to reel equipment at 18 when i joined the union the 18 year olds i was talking about are not hired as projectionists but concession people who at 18 are allowed to do what they call booth duty and really don't care.
there are exceptions to every rule
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-07-2007, 12:52 AM:
 

quote: Monte L Fullmer

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For I can see that as well that the roller bracket cannot swivel on that return arm and a quarter turn on the lucknut underneath will definitely allow the assembly to swivel.

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Just quit and find another career now Joseph.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-07-2007, 01:08 AM:
 

 

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Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 01-07-2007, 03:15 AM:
 
Goddamn... considering that place is only a few miles from my house, I'm sooooo tempted to go over there and see what else is wrong and give them a nice big review...

[ 01-07-2007, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Dan Lyons ]
 

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Posted by Floyd Justin Newton (Member # 1316) on 01-07-2007, 11:10 AM:
 
Go for it, Dan.
 

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Posted by Alex Grueneberg (Member # 2652) on 01-07-2007, 04:19 PM:
 
By the I wasnt saying its Christies fault or anything. I was just saying I've had to deal with this. Most of the time its from just wipping the film threw that roller and not actually looking at it to make sure its seated properly. Which yes, is retarted.
 

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Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 01-07-2007, 06:05 PM:
 
well thanks for all your time and rude comments very unprofessional conduct you will all do well when digital takes over very soon.continue your rudeness and immature nature and Dan,Irvine is a little more than a few miles from seal beach,and if you can't understand the problem as simple as it is coming to my theatre won't help you.Alex Grueneberg I never quoted you as saying christie was at fault but you yourself found the problem of the roller you miss threaded and reported 7 scratched prints.Joe Redifer well atleast you can excell in photoshop!Brad be well!
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 01-07-2007, 06:37 PM:
 
Here's a really great tip for really ensuring the film is seated on all rollers properly when threading AW3's (it may work for other makes too).

>>> When pulling the film through the rollers, as you come over the top of each roller, briefly pull the film in a downwards direction before continuing on to the next roller.

You don't need to do it with every roller. See the attached sketch (a horribly simplified view of the AW3). By slightly pulling the film downwards after passing over the top of roller 1, then roller 2, as you thread, the film is positively seated into the rollers. This worked for me for several years. Of course one must still always check the threading before starting shows, and during shows.

This is all assuming that the roller on the tension arm is pivoting correctly. It is meant to swivel left and right, and its travel is limited by the triangular moulding on the top of the roller guide.

The other thing to do if your Engineer is unavailable etc., is to use another platter deck. I don't know if this was possible in this case.

There are terrific other tips for the AW3 in the Tips section.

Hope this helps.


 

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Posted by Gerard S. Cohen (Member # 994) on 01-07-2007, 08:52 PM:
 
I think some confusion in previous posts may be caused by individual understandings of the term "horizontal."
I took it to mean from side-to-side (right to left, or left to right) through the FRAME scratches and as viewed on screen.

Those that appear from top to bottom I'd call "vertical" scratches, even though viewing a STRIP of many frames the scratches run lengthwise from beginning to end across the frames.

While this comment adds nothing to solving the misaligned roller
it may clarify some misunderstandings.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-08-2007, 05:51 AM:
 
Joseph, if you are going to come on here and ask for help, you had better be prepared to actuall LEARN something or you will get this sort of response (which is well deserved by the way).

I will try and see if I can get some spare time to make you a quick and dirty video explaining why you are totally going about this problem the wrong way. Past that if you don't get it.......
 

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Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 02-02-2007, 04:49 PM:
 
hello brad i decided to give this another try i did make a video of the roller in progress of making these hz scratches i have indeed showed it to the service techs and the the cine mark and centry theater techs and all have agreed with my findings.and this video will be shown to all the new projection booth hires,i can post a still from the video if i can post the mpeg on a site or ftp i will
the reason the puck is used on the platter is because the air conditioning comes on strong and has blown the tail end off the platter thus getting caught up in the motor drive tucking the film under poses its own problem as they can slide the film out of proper geometry all the platter rings were installed before i did all the tweaks on the system i never seen the box nor the instructions that came with it.I also know a few people at the film exchanges i am going there to look at film that was scratched damage and see if it is the same hz scratches the inspector i know tells me it looks the same
talk,soon
 

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Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 02-02-2007, 05:42 PM:
 
We've got AW3s (some with black rollers and some with green rollers) and even after intentionally threading the rollers wrong I still can't get them to stay crooked like that: they always rotate back to the proper position. The only way your problem can occur is if the pulley is not able to freely pivot on the bolt, either by being over-tightened or by some kind of obstruction, like everyone else has stated. As for your video, you can always put it up on Youtube.

Actually, I stand corrected: I tried some more and could get the film to occasionally stay in the position your photos indicated with green rollers that were properly functioning, but I really had to try to get it to happen, it would never happen normally.

[ 02-02-2007, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Jon P. Inghram ]
 

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Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 04-02-2008, 05:28 AM:
 

It has been 424 days since the last post.

 

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Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 04-02-2008, 05:28 AM:
 
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!
DO NOT SHOUT!


Post removed due to shouting.

(I would like to see an actual image of a film that is getting scratched in this way...the scratched film itself that is, not the scenario.)

[ 04-02-2008, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-02-2008, 02:04 PM:
 
Hi guys,
With all due respect to all...

Down here we have been having the same problem for quite some time now. Without having the bolt excessively tight, the film might be left riding on the flange after careless threading. This only happens on the take up arm roller. This will cause emulsion scratches that are not horizontal, but rather with a 20° angle, when you see them on the screen. The scratches do not remain in the same place, but rather look as if they were coming down the screen (from top to bottom that is) and some of them are so thin that they are not green at all, but rather blackish.

In most cases, when a splice goes through the roller, it corrects itself. However we have had entire films scratched like this.

I do not know if this is Christie´s fault or not, but this has happened in different booths in different countries, that´s saying something, isn´t it?

BTW nothing more than detecting and removing them can be done about careless operators.

I took the liberty to add my two cents, since this thread had not been locked.

Cheers,
Andrés
 

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Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 04-02-2008, 03:46 PM:
 
If Joseph wrote with correct capitalization of letters, correct sentence structure and correct use of punctuation, then maybe we could figure out what he was talking about.

quote: Andres Briano

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Without having the bolt excessively tight, the film might be left riding on the flange after careless threading

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quote: Michael Brown

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If Joseph wrote with correct capitalization of letters, correct sentence structure and correct use of punctuation, then maybe we could figure out what he was talking about.

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quote: Andres Briano

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no matter how good you are, you cannot be at the theatre 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. So, you will need to have different operators. One of them, will almost inevitably, turn out to be a f**k-up.

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That is absolutely true. The moral of the story is not only to check your work, but to terminate anyone who doesn't.

Regarding Joseph, his mastery of grammer tells me he is an 18 year old who is trying to do a good job and thinks he has found the cause of a problem and is trying to do good by sharing his findings. However after working with these platters for 20 years, that roller is not to blame for "horizontal scratches". That simply cannot happen from that roller. There would HAVE to be at least some angle to them, such as what Andres described a few posts above. This is why I would like for him to upload a picture of the physical film showing the scratches. Once he posts the pictures of the film...and preferably also some shots of his projection setup...the outstanding odds are that we can point at the cause of his problem.

Now if it should turn up that his scratches are not in fact horizontal but are diagonal to some degree, then he will have learned a valuable lesson in troubleshooting to always be extremely specific.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-03-2008, 09:31 PM:
 
I will look through my theatres to see if I can find an old scratched trailer. If I´m lucky enough to find one, I will post pictures of the angled scratch I am talking about. I assume it is the same one Joseph is referring to.

Andrés
 

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Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 04-04-2008, 01:51 AM:
 
well sorry for the grammer issue i have been running for the last 7 days with no time for myself.Brad 20yrs in this business congrats!i became a union member in 1971. It seems you favor the Aw3 thats good.The problem comes from the quick load take up roller it seems that when the operator loads the film to the take up platter and pulls on the slack to let the platter take up it is at this point that the film can slip out of roller.that is because the roller no longer has the 2 little white retainers the old design had.So the film gets loaded he startes the show turns off the booth light(not seeing the cocked roller) and away he goes.But little does he know the film is being scratched but he will not see it because the scratch is created after it passes the gate and goes to the take up platter.
brad i don't know how many screens you run but i have to deal with a 25 plex and a 20 plex and believe me this is a real problem be thankful you don't have to deal with this.I am hopeful that the video will make this issue more clear.and maybe help others as to not become a statistic

joe
 

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Posted by Patrick Dunn (Member # 3333) on 04-04-2008, 10:31 PM:
 
It's reasons like that are why I double check the projector after I thread, than once again before I start the show. That way if i made a mistake or if anything looks weird like a roller is at a strange angle I'll catch it before I start the show.

We don't have that same type of platter system, we have strong platters. But every now and than when i thread I'll notice that after I set the platter to rewind the film the tension wont pull the roller to the right angle it needs to be, so i have to do it by hand so it wont scratch or damage the print.
 

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Posted by Muhammad Husni (Member # 4396) on 04-09-2008, 07:42 AM:
 
Around 2 years ago, I've been in those group of never-check-the-projector-after-threading up-the-film projectionist. And somehow all of the projectionists in that room were questioned due to film scratch. What my leader do was, he come out with a log book to monitor every single screen, every single show and who thread up the film. Later on we found out that it was mostly on my session that the film get scratched. After I have learned my lesson there were no more film scratch.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 04-10-2008, 10:39 AM:
 
Muhammad, your leader is pretty smart to check after his people and keep a log, it makes finding the source of problems a lot easier and makes it more difficult for the worker to deny what he did incorrectly.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-14-2008, 03:48 PM:
 
With all due apologies for the delay, I present you with pictures of the infamous (not) horizontal, emulsion scratch.

Disclaimer: These pics were extremely hard to take (however lousy you find them), so keep that in mind before bitching about their quality.



I had to have this old ad scratched intentionally. I wasn´t able to locate any already scratched. As you can see, the scratch (on the emusion side) is slightly skewed and not horizontal. Out of all of them, only a few are deep enough to be green in color.



Like stated before, usually the film will seat itself properly once a splice goes through the roller. Having said that, it´s only fair to warn you that entire prints have been damaged in this manner.

PS: Do not bother asking me for the girl´s phone number. I do not have access to it!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-14-2008, 08:58 PM:
 


Hmmm, although I've ran films on these style of rollers for 10 years and never had this problem I'm still a little curious here. I see how the scratches in the picture above could've been caused by the top edge of the roller and the way the film is dragging across the roller flange, but where are the scratches that should be on the picture edge of the film from the bottom side of the roller?

The film had no scratches on it and you scratched it in this manner? How many times did you run the film misthreaded on that roller like this?
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-14-2008, 10:52 PM:
 
Those scratches look more like the film is being dragged across the edge of the platter on take-up (with the soundtrack down).
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 04-15-2008, 10:40 AM:
 
What I call platter hash, Mike's dead on.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-15-2008, 10:53 AM:
 
No, sorry. Mike is not dead on. We only use soundtracks up on our AW3. Besides, I was right there and I can guarantee that it was the roller that scratched it and not the deck itself.
Brad, that ad was ran by the roller only once. I will post pictures of the misthreaded roller later.

Chau.
Andrés
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 04-15-2008, 11:23 AM:
 
I usually see it on the base side, still from the same source, not much else in the film path that can make crosswise scratches. I don't see how a roller can make scratches across the width of the film.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-16-2008, 02:15 AM:
 
those scratches on the emulsion side looks like roller scratching - like if the film is making face to face contact with the inner part of the, or "a" roller...for I see a pattern of sorts..like a "footprint" being pressed on that film.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-16-2008, 03:22 PM:
 
Gentlemen,
Here are the pics.

My setup:


Misthreaded take up arm roller. Various angles:


In the following shot it is particularly obvious that the swivel roller is attached to the arm via an axle. Unless stuck (which is not the case) there is no way that the roller cannot spin freely.





Hope this helps clarify things a bit.

Andrés
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-16-2008, 11:29 PM:
 
You've got the wrong roller assembly on that arm since it can't swivel some on the shaft. The assembly should have a trangular stop in the center to allow restricted left/right swivel, but enough to allow roller alignment so the film path can be square coming from the roller traveller on the tower.

Or, I notice that you got a clip on the upper shaft on that roller assembly. Wonder if that's jamming the swivel action of the roller assembly and you need a new clip installed. Also, how are ther other arms in your booth up there - all or any experiencing this problem as well?

-Monte
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-17-2008, 01:53 AM:
 
But again I am not convinced solely because the scratches cover the entire width of the image, yet in the pictures of the misthread the edge of the roller flange only covers half of the width of the film.

I will try and remember to intentionally misthread a platter with a virgin trailer tomorrow like that and see what results I get. The ONLY time I have ever seen this happen though was when there was a knick on the top of the keeper bracket and the shaft that goes through the end of the arm was overtightened into the keeper, making it so the roller could not pivot back and forth effortlessly. I still think that is your problem.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-18-2008, 02:26 PM:
 
Monte: You are right. The roller on the pictures has the centered triangular stop. It is barely seen because of the flash, but that is the correct roller. See clearer picture following:



Besides, this has happened in different AW3s and in different buildings. The rollers are all the same. Trust me. It´s not something sooooo simple. I covered my bases long time ago on that one.

Brad: I guess you didn´t remember to scratch a virgen trailer on purpose, did you? Otherwise we would have seen the results right here. I understand why you don´t take my word. It makes perfect sense. But trust me, I´ve investigated this a long time ago (in a galaxy far far away), and I´ve done my math. That is what causes that kind of scratch. I´m sure that if you try that yourself, we´ll meet on the other end of the tunnel.

Have a nice weekend, guys .
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-18-2008, 08:02 PM:
 
Ok, I tried to re-create what Andres is seeing. I tried. I really tried.

First off, it proved to be oddly difficult to get the roller to sit happily in that position of being misthreaded. Essentially you have to thread to the back side of the roller and then through the keeper, rather than threading from underneath and over as everyone I've ever met does. In the 10 or however many years since Christie made these new style keepers, I have never seen anyone make this misthread...but Andres is right if you DO make such a blatant misthread, it IS POSSIBLE that it can run that way. Even at that, my roller kept wanting to flip back into the normal operating mode. I had to keep stopping and re-starting the projector and angling the roller just right to get an attempt that actually did stick.

So getting over the fact that whoever this projectionist of his is that keeps making such a huge misthreading error (he should just be fired in my opinion), I ran a virgin trailer 3 times with it misthreaded like this. Yes THREE TIMES, and the best I could produce was a tiny intermittent dash scratch down the center of the image. In no way did it reach the sides...and did I mention it took 3 times to be able to make enough of a mark reasonably noticeable? I am amazed that such an awful misthread barely damaged the film at all. Regardless the image that was shown earlier couldn't have come from that roller after just one pass. I just don't see how because first the picture edge of the film does not scrape up against anything no matter how far you twist that roller, and second I tried my damndest to re-create it.

Here is the picture of what happened to the film after 3 passes being misthreaded exactly like Andres showed above in his picture.



Do you see it? Look at the arrow.



Yeah I know, it's so minor you can't see anything! Here is a pixel-for-pixel crop of the same image showing the scratch.



See what I mean?

Andres, I am not saying you are wrong, but there must be something else going on here that you are either missing, or there must be something pretty different between our two platters. Is the edge of your roller seriously chewed up perhaps?
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-21-2008, 07:09 PM:
 
Hey Brad,
I apreciate all your efforts to recreate this damage scenario.
You have my word. I am not crazy. I am not making this up. I can guarantee that that roller can stay like that and can make a lot more damage than what you have there. We are, of course, talking about decent flanges, and not all chewed up or anything like that.
I repeat: this has happened in different AW3, being threaded by different people in different countries.
But oh well! I guess I cannot prevent you from filing this one as an urban myth.
Once again, I apreciate you trying and no, I am not crazy!
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-21-2008, 08:14 PM:
 
I don't know, I'm out of ideas other than to simply tell your guys to look over their threading before they start the movie. If the film is seated on that roller properly before the projector starts, no way will it jump off of the roller once things start moving. Even at that, multiple attempts of mine to start the projector knocked the roller back into place just by starting it.

Your guys are extra-talented.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-22-2008, 05:48 PM:
 
That´s for sure: this misthread tends to correct itself. Once it is properly seated there is no way it´ll come out. However it might not correct itself during a whole print.

Yep. "My" guys are very talented! (And by "very talented" I mean very young, very underpaid, never-hanging-around-long-enough-to-get-good-at-it.)

Andrés This IS NOT an Urban Myth Briano
 

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Posted by Tim Lewis (Member # 4110) on 04-22-2008, 11:14 PM:
 
wow, i wish i had run across this thread earlier. i've been having these same exact problems in my theatre. Brad, my scratches look exactly like yours, running mainly through the center, and the best i can tell the same amount of scratches that you got happens in one showing, but then it keeps happening so by the time the film leaves, it's shredded all to hell.
we, like Andres, go soundtrack up, and all these scratches are definitely emulsion side.
when we were having this problem after first opening, Jim Dukes himself came by and checked things out and found nothing definitive. he did find a worn groove on the bracket (see picture.) my tech, whose opinion i greatly respect (as does Jim), dismissed this thinking you could only get vertical scratches if the film was misthreaded through there like this. we also did some test running trying to get it to stay misthreaded, and like Brad, we were not able to get it to stay there.
so basically, i can see how Brad can't wrap his head around how this would happen (i'm with you there), but somehow it is happeneing at my theatre as well.
obviously, my first task shall be to talk to my employees and see if i can get it through their thick skulls that it's usually a good idea to not have the film falling off the rollers while in use. of course they were trained to make sure the film does not fall off of that roller specifically, but like someone else already said; underpaid, unexperienced, etc., etc.


 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-22-2008, 11:39 PM:
 
Well then train your management to get better projectionists/better trainers/more money for properly trained projectionists, etc. If underpaid, undertrained projectionists are the problem, then the fault of the matter lies within management.

Also, you really don't need Bevan Poos when you have the Film-Tech platter ring.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-23-2008, 09:41 PM:
 
Joe,
In theory you are right. The fault lies in the management. However what makes you think that I haven´t tried to get them better paychecks? Because I have. No matter how hard I try, it´s not my call. I do invest many hours a week on training, which is very productive (specially when they quit a week later because they getter paying jobs (in McDonald´s, no less!)).
(In case you were wondering yes, our tech salaries are just as great (Isn´t there a Graemlin for IRONY??))

Andrés
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-23-2008, 09:59 PM:
 
Are you the main manager at this complex? What do the higher-ups have to say when you try to get them more $$$? If they are blocking you then it is ultimately the fault of upper management. Are you an assistant manager? Does the main GM just shrug you off? Lots of theater managers like to run the place as cheaply as possible so they can get a bonus, so I'm never surprised when raises are given out sparsely or when wages are fairly low to begin with.
 

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Posted by Tim Lewis (Member # 4110) on 04-24-2008, 03:55 AM:
 
ok, big update. i went in this evening and told my employee that worked today about all this and drilled it into him about how he must pay attention to this (and of course i have always told them to watch out for this specific roller because it swivels so much), and as we're checking all the take up rollers, low and behold, #1 is riding off the roller. it was well past halfway through the film, so once in that position, it can obviously stay there through an entire run.

so at the end of the night, i made up a virgin trailer ring and ran it through with the film riding up off of the roller where it shouldn't be, and sure enough, it scratched the film in the exact manner that i've been having problems with and that others on this thread have reported. also, it had no problem going through the entire trailer ring and staying misthreaded.

now, referring back to my earlier post about Jim Dukes noticing the wear marks on the bracket. after his visit, he sent me these metal bracket extender thingies, and my tech and i installed a few of them (in what seemed to be the most sensible manner because they came with no instructions), but they didn't do any good in preventing the film from riding up. however, tonight i did some experimenting with those "extenders" and found that if i put them at a different angle, they worked brilliantly, and i could not for the life of me get the film to ride up off the roller. so it looks like there may be a solution.
i suggest that anyone who is having this problem call up Christie and order part #196498-001 for however many platters you have, and i'll try to get some pictures up as soon as i can of the correct way (and my incorrect way) to install them.

so, is it technically a misthread/lack of observational skills by the projectionist? i'd say yes.
but could Christie have designed this part so it wasn't so easy to literally destroy a print from one mistake? i'd like to think so.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 04-24-2008, 09:08 AM:
 

quote: Joe Redifer

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Are you the main manager at this complex? What do the higher-ups have to say when you try to get them more $$$? If they are blocking you then it is ultimately the fault of upper management. Are you an assistant manager? Does the main GM just shrug you off? Lots of theater managers like to run the place as cheaply as possible so they can get a bonus, so I'm never surprised when raises are given out sparsely or when wages are fairly low to begin with.

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quote: Tim Lewis

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...so at the end of the night, i made up a virgin trailer ring and ran it through with the film riding up off of the roller where it shouldn't be, and sure enough, it scratched the film in the exact manner that i've been having problems with and that others on this thread have reported. also, it had no problem going through the entire trailer ring and staying misthreaded.

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THANK YOU....! So, in the end, it turns out I´m not crazy! (I was beginning to doubt that myself).

FIRST Lesson Learnt (for me at least): Some take up arm rollers on some AW3s but not all of them out there will stay misthreaded through the entire show.

SECOND Lesson Learnt: Not all of the AW3s out there produce the same damage to film. Some are more intense than others.(Probably having to do with the manufacturing of the actual roller. The obvious reason would be the finishing of the flanges would not be equally smooth on all of the rollers that come out of the factory.

Tim, pics of that Christie part will be welcome whenever you have the chance.

Andrés
 

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Posted by Tim Lewis (Member # 4110) on 04-28-2008, 02:25 AM:
 
ok Andres (and everyone else) i was finally able to take some pictures...sorry for the delay, but i recently broke my camera and had to borrow someone else's.

anyway first up is a shot of the two wear marks i found on the brackets from the film riding up:


next is this new "bracket extender" part by itself (part #196498-001):


now we have how the new part fits onto the bracket:


and here is the INCORRECT way i originally installed it. note how the new part fits up nice and snug with the bracket, seems reasonable, but this positioning makes the part useless:


here is the correct way to position it. i found it works anywhere from the 4 to 6 o' clock position:


here's a shot of the back. this back piece seems to be the bit that actually pushes the film back down on the roller and doesn't allow it to ride up:


and finally, the new setup in action:

 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 05-08-2008, 05:30 PM:
 
Hey Tim,
Thanks for the pictures. Very explicit. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I have been working in a little town in the middle of Brazil.
Have you got any idea how much does the part cost? It seems simple enough to replicate. Doesn´t it?

Take care,
Andrés
 

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Posted by Tim Lewis (Member # 4110) on 05-09-2008, 02:55 PM:
 
you're welcome Andres, i hope it helps...i'm not sure how much that part costs, Jim Dukes from Christie personally sent those to us gratis, but i can't imagine they'd be that expensive, it's just a small piece of metal...i guess if you knew anyone with metalworking skills, you could have some of your own made.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 05-09-2008, 05:19 PM:
 
Tim,
The real issue (for me) is not the cost of the part itself, but the shipping (to Argentina) and customs duties. That alone is often up to 300% of the value of the piece.
You can´t survive in a projection environment in the ass-end of the world if you don´t befriend all sort of characters (metal workers included)!
Have a nice weekend!
Andrés
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-09-2008, 08:05 PM:
 
5 pages of this silliness and I STILL have to ask...what is so hard about having the projectionists check their threading before they start the movie?????????
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 05-10-2008, 04:21 PM:
 
On 04-03-2008, Brad, you quoted me saying...:

quote: Andres Briano

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no matter how good you are, you cannot be at the theatre 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. So, you will need to have different operators. One of them, will almost inevitably, turn out to be a f**k-up.

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quote: Brad Miller

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That is absolutely true. The moral of the story is not only to check your work, but to terminate anyone who doesn't.

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That is why "telling you staff to check their threading" is not infalible. (At least not for us who, unlike you, have human operators!

Call me lazy, but I rather spend $300 in retrofiting all my tension arm rollers with a bull piece of metal (and thus getting rid of the problem forever) than having to endlessly repeat it to every new 18-year-old operator I get every three months in one or the other theatre.

Besides compare the price of a print (that is all it takes) to the price of all the retrofits I need...

"Whatever can go wrong will go wrong, and at the worst possible time, in the worst possible way" Murphy´s Law
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-10-2008, 05:49 PM:
 
Andres, if you take care of your projectionists both monetarily and in regards to their work environment and general treatment, you won't have them quitting on you. People quit jobs because they are either treated poorly or are given a shit wage. As far as someone not checking their work, terminate them! This isn't rocket science.

Sorry you feel a piece of metal is the solution to your problems. Fact of the matter is that if you are permitting people to work your booth who have to have that piece of metal to keep from scratching prints, your presentation isn't that good anyway because if they are making those kind of sloppy mistakes, your prints, projectors and general equipment is being neglected too.

When you find someone good, TAKE GOOD CARE OF THEM! You will find your entire presentation as well as the care given to the equipment will be vastly superior than what you have now.
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 05-10-2008, 06:05 PM:
 
Point taken, Brad.
However, that is where you and I differ. If there is a chance of a print getting scratched, (and once more, there is), then I´d rather solve the issue. It´s better to be safe than sorry, and it not necessarily has to do with the staff.
Keep in mind that not all of us have a say when it comes to operator salaries.
But anyway, I´m not saying anything new here, so I´ll stop now.

Andrés "I object!" Briano
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-10-2008, 06:12 PM:
 
How have you solved the issue of them threading out of frame? I know they do. Often.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-10-2008, 08:13 PM:
 
If you don't have a say in operator salaries, then you need to make up the difference with extra respect, appreciation and a good work environment. You should also put more effort into finding people who do the job because they ENJOY it and improving your training. After all you train them to make sure the movie is in focus, right? Why can't you train them to look at this one silly roller that somehow your crew keeps misthreading (although I've never seen it happen before).

These things are entirely in your hands. I've trained 17 year old kids who could run the booth better than people who have been doing it for 30 years, so the age is no excuse.
 

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Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-11-2008, 04:02 AM:
 
Andres,

To put what Brad was alluding to a different way:
You're looking at the possible scratching being the cause of the problem when the root of your problem is having crappy workers. It's like putting a band-aid on a cut and acting like you're ok even though you know the infection already throughout your body.
 

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Posted by Joseph Matteo (Member # 4096) on 05-11-2008, 07:18 PM:
 
posted on you tube for your enjoyment audio might be low but perhaps this might clarify what tried to explain in past posts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVADTNyMalw
 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 05-12-2008, 05:34 PM:
 

quote: Joe Redifer

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How have you solved the issue of them threading out of frame? I know they do. Often.

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Tell you what, Joe: Next time you are sitting in one of my theatres and the film starts out of frame, PM me. I´ll treat you to dinner.

Brad, Chris, I understand perfectly what you are saying. It´s just that even with excellent training (which is available), my operators are only human. And humans err. There´s no two ways about it.

I am honestly not saying this to annoy you. I have nothing but the utmost respect for both of you. But it´s just that I don´t agree with you. If things CAN go bad, they will at some point. It´s better to be safe than sorry. Operators will always change. The machine won´t (and that is wishful thinking).

I hope you can understand what I think and not take it disrespectfully.

Andrés
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-12-2008, 05:54 PM:
 
Well, here is an AVI file of me trying to re-create this scratch (which is much clearer than the clip posted to youtube). It took me numerous times to get the machine to start up and the roller not bounce into the proper operating position, but as you can see at the halfway point I stopped the projector to inspect the film and there was nothing.

Obviously your mileage will vary on the degree of scratching. I still cannot imagine how someone can miss such a blatant misthread. Some projectionists are even stupider than I gave them credit for!
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-12-2008, 07:31 PM:
 

quote: Brad Miller

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if you take care of your projectionists both monetarily and in regards to their work environment and general treatment, you won't have them quitting on you...

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quote:

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Call me lazy, but I rather spend $300 in retrofiting all my tension arm rollers with a bull [bs] piece of metal (and thus getting rid of the problem forever)...

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