Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 5.1 from DVD Player, through CP650, possible?

This is topic 5.1 from DVD Player, through CP650, possible? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by James Ness (Member # 4631) on 04-09-2008, 01:13 AM:

This has probably been answered before but I couldn't find a straight answer.

I'm guessing you probably have to go from the dvd players coaxial output into some kind of reciever then from the separate channels in through the 6 channel input on the 650.

how would you wire something like that?

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 04-09-2008, 01:25 AM:

Something like this would take care of your needs: http://www.uslinc.com/products-sound-ECI60.html

This would connect easily to that 25-pin analog input. Takes both digital coax and optical (toslink), decodes Dolby 5.1 from DVD's, satellite... whatever you need.

Also I believe you'd have some options if you're using a DVD player that has a built-in Dolby/DTS decoder, in which case it would have 6-8 RCA analog outputs on the back... there are cables that will turn that into the 25-pin connector.

Yet another, albeit more cumbersome solution would be to hook your DVD player to a home audio receiver that does Dolby, and also happens to have 6-8 RCA audio pre-outs on the back. Go from those to a 25-pin connector using the adapter cable. The only cable I've found like that was from a vague site on Google product search, and the inputs were not labeled... so perhaps someone else on here has a good recommendation for where to go for such a cable.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-09-2008, 02:45 AM:

No, no, no. Just hook into the CP650's "option card i/o" connector. All you have to do is take an RCA male cable and connect the + lead to pin #1 and the - lead to pin #7 of that DB25 connector and assign the format for AC3 decoding to one of the buttons on the front. Then connect the RCA plug into the coaxial output of your DVD player.

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 04-09-2008, 03:03 AM:

Very nice. I guess my solution would only be good if you wanted a quick way to move this input between different types of processors (XD10P's etc).

I haven't had a chance to experiment with this yet, will the XD10 play consumer (DVD) DTS audio through what I believe is the digital coax connector on the back?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-09-2008, 03:34 AM:

quote: Mark Strube
I guess my solution would only be good if you wanted a quick way to move this input between different types of processors (XD10P's etc).

So it is easier and faster to move another unit AND wiring as opposed to just moving that one wire? [Razz]

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 04-09-2008, 03:45 AM:

For people who don't know the deep ins & outs of different processors... sure!

Posted by James Ness (Member # 4631) on 04-09-2008, 05:03 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
No, no, no. Just hook into the CP650's "option card i/o" connector. All you have to do is take an RCA male cable and connect the + lead to pin #1 and the - lead to pin #7 of that DB25 connector and assign the format for AC3 decoding to one of the buttons on the front. Then connect the RCA plug into the coaxial output of your DVD player.

this is possible without having the ex add-on?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-09-2008, 06:18 AM:

No, you need the EX board installed.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-09-2008, 11:12 AM:

He said he had a CP650. That comes standard on the CP650. Check your model numbers. [Wink]

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-09-2008, 12:01 PM:

Brad, is there a way to do this on DTS X10? I don't see any thing that would make me think you could but I am curious if it can be done and if so how.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-09-2008, 12:10 PM:

Brad, you are correct. Pedantic but correct.

Most people don't know the model IDs and refer to them all as a CP650, CP500, CP65 etc.

Ron, do you mean XD10 or XD10P? [Roll Eyes]

I find people don't know the difference (and it's a BIG one) and often confuse the two units. The answer to your question is yes in either case, assuming you've got the correct configuration.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-09-2008, 12:44 PM:

I have both but the processor unit (X10P) has no interface for a coaxial in put and it appears that X10 has only video inputs and that option is not active on this one. It seems a bit strange to me that the video processor is already installed and you only need the license to use it! There two video RCA's and input and an output on what appears to be the video card and two that are also yellow on in another area!

Posted by James Ness (Member # 4631) on 04-09-2008, 03:57 PM:

i'm pretty sure we dont have the ex board on any of our cp650's
whats the easiest way to tell?

Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 04-09-2008, 09:09 PM:

If you want flexibility in what you want to play, why not just get a domestic multi-channel receiver - even one which handles the latest audio formats on BluRay and HD-DVD - and use it to decode the audio to discrete channels and feed them into whatever processor you have.

Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 04-09-2008, 10:42 PM:

To check what boards are in your CP650 use the menu and fader knob to get to 'about this 650'(or something like that). It'll tell you what is installed. The #'s are explained in the manual.
Also can't you can program Non sync 2 as a 5.1 analog input if you have a DVD player with analog outputs?

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-10-2008, 01:20 AM:

quote: Ron Funderburg
Brad, is there a way to do this on DTS X10?

Why would a DTS unit decode a Dolby data stream? Do DTS and Dolby get along now? Do the latest Dolby processors also have CD trays for DTS discs?

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 04-10-2008, 02:05 AM:

In which case I believe my original recommendation would be a good solution. (USL product connected to XD10P for consumer DD decoding.)

Posted by Sebastian Binz (Member # 4567) on 04-10-2008, 05:20 AM:

I wonder whether the optional digital input board (DI83) of the USL JSD-80 in its "D" version would also work in the XD10P, as the two units are using the same hardware?
That input board uses two RCA jacks on Non/Sync and Aux to handle S/PDIF signals from a consumer AC3 bitstream, which any DVD player capable of DolbyDigital decoding can supply.
We recently installed the JDS80D and are very pleased about its performance.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-10-2008, 07:12 AM:

Here's what I know from experience.

Ultra Stereo JDS80 will decode AC3 & AES/EBU not sure about consumer DTS

DTS XD10P will decode AES/EBU and afaik consumer DTS, but not AC3

DTS XD10 has an SPDIF input (at least all the ones I've ever seen do) and will decode DTS, you must however have the appropriate licence from DTS to activate it.

CP650 will decode AES/EBU & PCM.

Until today, I hadn't seen this looks like a neat solution!

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-10-2008, 01:10 PM:

Damn double post!

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-10-2008, 01:10 PM:

Actually, Joe, many DVD units out put DTS or was that something you missed? Why even PS3 out puts DTS! You should check it out there have been a lot of changes since 1997 when DVD started!

Posted by James Ness (Member # 4631) on 04-10-2008, 05:10 PM:

So just checked, none of our CP650's have the EX card installed.
So unless I get something like the ECI-60 I'm shit out of luck?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-10-2008, 07:08 PM:

Back up the bus
get a dvd player with an analogue 5.1 output and make a cable to connect to the external analogue input
Or soundblaster made a standalone decoder that took the digital out of a player and gave you dolby 5.1 analogue outputs

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-10-2008, 08:03 PM:

Gordon I actually did what you describe and input to the individual inputs on the Processor unit. It worked great but you had to turn the DTS unit off or it would rob half your volume.

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 04-10-2008, 09:14 PM:

The XD10P has a 25 pin AES connector on the back. Can Spdif be used here? If so, just hook up to channel one. I believe there are some issues with gain if you don't hook it up properly because AES is balanced and spdif is not.

The USL JSD-80 (pretty much the same internals as an XD-10P) has an RCA jack on the back for Spdif input. I've always wondered why DTS left that out on their models....

Gordon is referring to the Sound Blaster "Extigy" models. They are great for decoding AC3 and such into six analog channels.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-10-2008, 10:47 PM:

quote: Ron Funderburg
Actually, Joe, many DVD units out put DTS or was that something you missed?

In order to output DTS, the DVD must have DTS encoded onto it. How many DVDs have DTS? Very, very, very, very, very, very few when compared to those which have Dolby Digital. DTS keeps trying to establish themselves in the home market, but they keep coming in waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind Dolby. A brutha just can't get a chance.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-10-2008, 11:34 PM:

This is probably a question for the home forum, but I'll ask here for now: what, exactly, is consumer DTS and why would anyone use it? I know that, in principle, it's an alternative encoding format and that it, in theory, provides superior sound quality when compared with Dolby AC3, but does it really do this? Does it have any other advantages in real-world situations? Wouldn't it be better for DVD authors to use the extra disk space for higher video bitrates, rather than a duplicate soundtrack? Or does it sound so much better as to justify the use of the space?

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 04-10-2008, 11:45 PM:

On standard DVD's, Dolby Digital is typically running at 448kbps, whereas most DTS runs at 1.5mbps... and purports to retain more detail in the audio. Most people who have reviewed one against the other find a small difference, but it never seems to be enough to justify the extra disc space required. It was simply a marketing ploy that pretty much failed.

It's happening again with Blu-Ray's many different flavors of lossless audio, except the difference is that it's not really taking away from video bitrate.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 04-11-2008, 12:31 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
He said he had a CP650. That comes standard on the CP650. Check your model numbers

Some of the CP650s do have EX and some do not - at least that is the way when we bought our 16 units - 5 have EX, the others do not.

On the consumer DTS issue, only the first handful of titles used 1.5mb/s bitrate. Starting with "Saving Private Ryan", DTS started using a 'half-rate' 768kb/s stream to allow the track and the film to actually fit on the disc. There were still a handful of dual releases (Jaws, Saving Private Ryan), but eventually they just dropped DTS.

With Blu-ray, the rules have all changed and DTS is there from the very beginning. And we praise FOX for putting DTS-HDMA tracks on every release.

I am faily sure there is not any cinema equipment that will decode consumer DTS. The codec is completely different. As Gordon said, if you want DTS from a DVD/Blu-ray disc in the theater, you'll probably need to use the 6-channel inputs.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-11-2008, 12:58 PM:

Nope, check your model number. A CP650 includes EX. A CP650D does not. I never said Dolby's model numbers were very well thought out, but regardless look here.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 04-11-2008, 03:41 PM:

Well, you are correct. I hadn't realized the model numbering was done this way. I was going based on how the manual is written. The base CP650 includes the Cat 794 card which provides EX and AC-3 playback. By adding a Cat 794 board to a CP650D, you get the same functionality.

So while technically you are correct - the CP650 can do it out of the box, the statement we're making is also true - AC-3 decoding from DVD (and other 'home' sources) and EX decoding are done on the same board.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-11-2008, 09:01 PM:

I believe the current EX card is Cat. No. 790. Also, the 5.1 input needs to be assigned to a front panel button, like U1 or U2 or some other convenient or rarely use button like Mono. It does not come programmed for this input last time I looked.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 04-14-2008, 02:48 PM:

This is what I get for reading old manuals. Since our units are just 2 years old, I suspect they actually have the Cat. No. 790 boards, which replaced the Cat. No. 794 boards in 2003.

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 12-04-2008, 06:39 PM:

Ok, to add on to this post, we have two houses we are doing alternative content in. One of them has a 794 in the cp650, one has a 790. I tried the #1 & #7 pin on the 794, and it worked. However, I am wondering about the 790. So here is my list of questions.

#1 Brad, where did you find out about that hook up. According to our manual, that is hooking up AES - to ground. It shouldn't work. Was it a misprint, did you find out by hit and miss, etc.?

#2 What are the pinouts to the 790. What would happen if I hook it up on it.

#3 We use the AES inputs from our Doremi on the 790, so if it needs to be switched from pcm to AES, has anyone rigged a workaround instead of switching jumpers (like a 5 throw switch)?

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 12-06-2008, 02:04 PM:

OK, addendum to that, I only get left and right out of the pin 1 and 7 connection. I don't find a ac3 setting, but I have tried Master digital in, which does recognize when I change the output of our cable box into different formats. It recognizes the difference between Dolby Digital, and the "other" format it has. What do I need to change on the 650 to get it to look for the other channels on that input?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-06-2008, 08:59 PM:

Unless you have the packing crate it came in (it's labelled), you can't tell a CP650SR from a CP650D, CP650, CP650XO, or even a CP650DC without a bit of poking around (explained by Phil).
The biggest selling model the CP650D: SR-D but no EX, no digital input, no crossovers. All these "extras" are available on any more basic 650 by installing assorted expensive add-on cards. Adding EX (who really cares about EX?) and digital inputs is quite costly, and for digital input a Dolby DMA8 is the better solution since you get a LOT more flexibility than just the basic CP650 AES/EBU (very similar to s/pdif) input.
If you just want 5.1 from a DVD/Blu-Ray player then as Gord suggests just get a player with 5.1 analog output and make up a cable to the analog 25 pin input. The cheapo WallyWorld DVD players don't have this but it's a common feature on decent models. There's no convenient way to also have DTS as the same 650 input is used, but either plug swapping or some sort of switcher is possible.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 12-08-2008, 11:38 AM:

Actually, you can. The little white sticker that has the unit serial number also has the specific model number printed on it in the corner. It's not silk-screened on the unit itself.