Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Philips/Kinoton FP-20

This is topic Philips/Kinoton FP-20 in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Burleigh Ibbott (Member # 3917) on 04-21-2008, 03:52 AM:

Good morning

I have seen two of these projectors (philips and kinoton FP-20) up for offer and dont know what price i should go in with. Does anyone know whats a fair value of these projectors bearing in mind that they were in use till up to 5 weeks ago. They are fully working models but not refurbished both have different lamp houses. One is a strong super Lume-x, the other im not sure.

many thanks

Burleigh

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-21-2008, 08:24 AM:

What are they worth to you? A pair sold at auction here 2 years ago for $100.00 (for both, working, with ORC 1000 lamphouses).

Posted by Burleigh Ibbott (Member # 3917) on 04-22-2008, 02:30 AM:

Thanks Dave
But hey i never knew they go for that price. That is cheap

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-22-2008, 01:06 PM:

You have to be in the right place at the right time, and maybe you are?
The FP20 is a nice machine, very steady picture. The soundhead can be converted to red LED reverse scan with a BACP unit, and there is a JaxLite (yuck) for it too. You can even buy ($$$$) a Kinoton analog/SR-D reader that replaces the original assembly.
Film path parts are the same as current Kinoton models.
The lamphouse table is the biggest negative point to me, but you can get a lamphouse aligned - it is just a few times harder than with most US made pedestal/console systems that have some way to adjust the height of the lamphouse using jacking screws. If it has an actual Philips or Kinoton lamphouse then you don't have any lamphouse table so installing any other lamphouse is a trick. The Super Lume-X is a reputable unit and performs very well if the reflector is good. The other one, well what is it? A lot of these projectors here (Toronto) were in industry screening rooms or studios, and used pretty small lamps so I see lots of ORC lamphouses... not entirely terrible but obsolete so parts are difficult/impossible to get. In your part of the world I would expect Cinemeccanica or some other European small lamphouse, some are nice and some are dogs.
What do you want projectors for? For a normal cinema the SLX lamphouse will be fine but the other one is a question mark. You still need a rectifier to handle whatever lamp size you need. With mismatched lamphouses you have a higher probablility of major light changes on changeovers - even with a pair the same it's rare to get matched colour temperatures.
Baically if you can get the projectors really cheap you should be able to get them working without spending a fortune, but you will have extra expenses so don't blow your entire budget on them!

Posted by Benjamin John Doman (Member # 4365) on 04-23-2008, 04:10 PM:

Hi Burleigh,
FP20’s in UK / Europe are worth there weight in gold! (where as we can’t give away DP75’s!!) Very reliable, spare parts are easy to get, as Dave said, easy to red light upgrade and can be refurbished easily. Maybe around £1500 for a good condition runner. Depends on age (the first generation FP20’s have some metalwork with electrics on attached to the body of the column in the rear of the machine, newer ones (ie: late 60's onwards)have all the electrics in the back door and the rear of the column is completely open) and what extras are fitted (like electric turret, red light reader etc). Check condition of things like the racking bush and end baring which are expensive to replace if worn. The super lume-x Lamphouse is a nice lamphouse. ORC lamphouse’s are now obsolete, but I have gutted the electrics in these and replaced with IREM igniters so are not a total wash out. Another lamphouse it may have is a BTH / AEI, which are OK, but tend to run hot (add a in line type fan to the exhaust) and are not very light efficient. Rectifiers are likely to be T&R single phase (excellent) or single / three phase Westinghouse (steer clear – particularly the single phase ‘dog kennel’ which has obsolete diodes). But, it comes down to what it’s worth to you and the seller. Out of interest, where were they installed?

Regards,
Ben

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-23-2008, 05:07 PM:

It's incredible to think that the FP-20 is almost fifty years old now; I think from memory that it was introduced in about 1959 as a 'modern' projector, though often fitted with spool boxes, of an odd shape, and carbon arcs, many of them ran with Peerles Magnarcs, then of course there were the ones with Philips pulsed lamps. They later proved very adaptable to long-run systems etc.

Still a good machine if in good condition, in some ways I prefer them to the FP-30.

Posted by Bernard Tonks (Member # 809) on 04-24-2008, 03:47 AM:

One of the first UK installations of the Philips FP-20 with pulse light and 6k spoolboxes, was the Studio Two News Theatre, Oxford Circus London. I was later to work there on relief one Sunday in 1970, by then running feature films. The chief projectionist ran Studio One which had the FP-7’s on 2k changeovers with Peerless carbon Magnarc’s. Fox had just taken control of the twin cinemas making it their third site with the Carlton and the Rialto.

Yes, a fine projector extremely reliable and easy to maintain, worked on them at Bayswater, Kingston, and in TV.

http://www.cinephoto.co.uk/misc_projectors_5.htm

Posted by Burleigh Ibbott (Member # 3917) on 04-24-2008, 04:47 AM:

Thank Dave
It is just the one now. Philips FP20 with the Strong Lume-x lamphouse. Its an old cinema which has been bought buy a guy who is converting it into a TV bar(hmmmph) So hes keeping the sound system. He has a 3/4 teer tower plattern to go too with all the splicing gear. Shame really as its a 1920's cinema converted to bingo. It has all the original ellectrics which is probally not being used but the casings still there. i will post a pic or two if you like and let me know what u think.
Its for a small independant second run cinema so i want to keep costs down.
Ben just to satisfy your curiosity the Projector is in Cambridgeshire.
I have been quoted for refurbished DP75 what are those projectors like compared to this as the tone of your blog makes it like that they are not upto much.
On the quote it say it can not have a digital reader on it. Is that correct?

Posted by Benjamin John Doman (Member # 4365) on 04-24-2008, 09:25 AM:

Hi Burleigh,
Small world, I went into the office this morning and it is us that have quoted you for the DP75! The DP75’s are very much marmite projectors – you either love them or hate them. A lot of projectionist’s hate the plastic pad shoes on the sprockets and find them fiddly to lace up. On the other hand, they are very reliable, good solid projectors. Most ABC’s that were twined, tripled etc in the 70’s had these. Mechanically, they are just as sound as the FP20, it really is down to personal opinion, they are just not as popular as the FP20. Not wanting to sound like a sales pitch, (I am sure others on the site will be good enough to post some pros & cons of the FP20 vs. DP75) but we have used DP75’s with all new electrics, inverter controlled three phase motors for a few years for our hire gear and have never had a problem yet. If you would like some pics of the FP20 & DP75, drop me a PM and I will e-mail some over to you. Kinoton do a retro fit combined analogue & digital sound head for the DP75, but it is expensive. If you wanted Dolby digital, it may be cheaper to try and find a second hand penthouse reader, or BACP do an excellent Digital penthouse reader, and convert the existing analogue soundhead to red light which can be done very easily.

Regards,
Ben

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 04-24-2008, 09:39 AM:

If you are buying any so called 'refurbished' machine be very careful from who and what you buy. Sometimes cheap can end up being VERY expensive.

I know of people who have bought such machines and lived to regret it. There are a lot of sharks out there. Caveat emptor "Let the buyer beware"

I'd be inclined to stick with the FP20 as it's a simple easily maintained machine. Upgrades and spares are readily available and again easy to fit. Rewiring them is not a problem if you feel the need as it's not complicated.

Regards.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-24-2008, 10:33 AM:

Yes the DP75 RSSD upgrade is expensive from Kinoton but it is oh so good! By far, the best tracking Dolby Digital reader I've yet seen. While a BACP upgrade will certainly be cheaper, you would still be dealing with the existing small drum and flutter that seems to be associated with it (frequency response and other such respects would be great with the BACP though).

Here is what a DP75 upgraded looks like:

Here is a closer look at the dreaded sprocket shoes (red plastic shoehorns):

And finally, here is a closer look at the RSSD soundhead. Note, we too have upgraded this machine with a 3-phase motor and inverter drive.

I personally like the DP75 though I don't really care for the sprocket pad-shoes. The image quality is quite good and the gear train is built like a tank. They have the absolute best reel shaft change out system, ever! They are also roomy inside so working in them is a breeze.

Steve

Posted by Benjamin John Doman (Member # 4365) on 04-25-2008, 10:53 AM:

Hi,
Like the pic’s Steve. Is that a Super Lume-x on the back? Totally agree on the Kinoton soundhead upgrade, they do work beautify. I to like the 75’s, although it is true that the 20’s are simpler. I think that’s what puts a lot of people off of the 75’s along with the plastic. I am a big fan of the three phase motor / inverter upgrades. Despite C-cinema, there has been a big demand in the last year or so for multi speed control for archive prints, which the inverters are perfect for. Must have done a couple of dozen in the last year.

Ken – absolutely! I have seen some horrendous ‘refurbished’ projectors in the past, with worn bearings, old electrics etc. I have to say that all the projectors I referb are stripped down to nut & bolt level and all bearings, wearing parts electrics etc replaced. You can’t morally call it a new machine otherwise. [Big Grin]

Regards,
Ben

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 04-25-2008, 11:05 AM:

I too have seen some good & bad DP75's in operation and have seen some recent rebuilds to a high standard, you will have to bear in mind these projectors now date over 40years old and like a car loose their value and as for a rebuild I would be prepared to pay more for a Kinoton standard rebuild and should be only considered from a Kinoton Agent.

The DP75E are far better designed than the older DP75, but neither of them can match the quality of the DP70 that are always in demand [Smile]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-25-2008, 12:15 PM:

The DP75 only recently went out of production. I have a 2001 price sheet that still shows the DP75D (direct drive) which was the last form of the unit. As such, there can be no telling of how old a "used" machine might be. The ones in my photos were installed new circa 1993...not too old but pre-direct drive.

As for the Current FP75E...it is now my favorite 70mm machine by far....not just because it is new but because of the image it can put out...it is notably steadier than the DP70 or DP75 with either 35 or 70mm film. The only thing that I don't care for on the FP75E is the double-dissolving shutter. I don't mind the bow-tie shutter too much but I would prefer a less efficient single bow-tie shutter rather than the dissolving type. A dissolving shutter always puts a visible flicker to the picture as the two blades "beat" with each other when they close or open the aperture.

Between the DP70 and the DP75, however...there really is no comparison...the DP70 is my preferred machine. The only think I like about the DP75 better are its spindles...they are the slickest design of all time...you can securely change between 5/16" to 1/2" in less than 5-seconds (or 9mm to 12.7mm for you metric types).

Note too, on the FP75E, the 35mm optical and 70mm magnetic films share the same optical center! Finally, one doesn't have to set their lamphouse to prefer one center line over the other. Of course, 35mm magnetic and Silent apertures are off center then but they are by far in the minority and one normally has an abundance of light for them (large aperture, normally a smaller (ft^2 as compared to the aperture) screen).

Steve

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 04-25-2008, 02:22 PM:

Ben:

quote:
I have to say that all the projectors I referb are stripped down to nut & bolt level and all bearings, wearing parts electrics etc replaced. You can’t morally call it a new machine otherwise. [Big Grin]

Ben, I doubt you could morally call such a machine new under ANY circumstances. I would be very concerned at any supplier that had such an opinion. As for you having seen poorly refurbished machines, I have no doubt about that. My warning of Buyer beware is especially true when anyone describes a refurbished machine as new.

Maybe the saying could be changed to buyer be afraid, be very afraid!

Burleigh, Ben himself said 'where as we can’t give away DP75’s!!'

The DP75 is a good solid machine but for your intended use it's way over the top. It has already be confirmed parts and upgrades are very expensive, it's a dual standard machine after all.

The FP20 will suit your use perfectly, you can upgrade in stages as finances allow. Just make sure you buy from a reputable dealer who will indeed do everything that Ben himself describes AND give you a good warranty in writing.

Regards.

Posted by Benjamin John Doman (Member # 4365) on 04-26-2008, 02:57 PM:

Ken,
Now you are just being silly! I don’t think you could mistake a refurbished machine for a brand new shiny just out of the box one. What I am trying to point out is the difference between taking an old projector, wiping it down with a damp cloth and re-selling and totally re-building, as in ‘a new lease of life’. I do agree with you’re ‘buyer beware’ though. If you buy a second hand car from a dealership, you get the service, quality and back up you would expect (with written warranty!). If you buy from the geezer down the pub you are asking for trouble. The best way to check what you are getting is to look at previous installations. I would be wary of any company that would not be happy for perspective clients to view previous work.

Yes, the DP75 is probably over the top. But, as it is not as popular as the FP20, its second hand value is less and therefor cheaper. Incidentally, have you seen the FP20A? I think this is the best new ‘budget’ projector around at the moment. Belt driven like the old FP20. I know everyone has there favourite projector, but personally I think the Kinoton (and Phillips before them) quality is hard to beat.

Regards,
Ben
[Razz]

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 04-26-2008, 06:25 PM:

quote: Ken McFall
Just make sure you buy from a reputable dealer who will indeed do everything that Ben himself describes AND give you a good warranty in writing.

Ken: I hope you will be offering this to your client on the South Coast and not repeating their former supplier that sold them a worn pile of projection [bs]

Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 04-27-2008, 02:35 AM:

Greetings

I really do think it's time Peter Hall became involved in this discussion.

From Cambridge

Goodnight

David

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 04-27-2008, 09:12 AM:

What I suggest is that you re read my posts and you will find that they are a general comment. If you are buying anything you should be very aware of what you are actually buying.

If its a heap of junk and is sold as such that's fine. 'IF' it is sold as something else and the word 'NEW' is part of that description then that is a very different matter.

The same applies to warranties it depends on what you are buying.
If you are honestly informed then you make your decision based on that information.

Now I have not made comment on anything specific and my comments are true in general. But there are sharks out there and the original post of this topic made it clear that Burleigh was not familiar fully with the two projectors mentioned which is caution number one.
Caution number two is Ben's own admission that they 'can't give away DP75's'
Caution number three is that it appears he has it in writing that the DP75 cannot have a digital reader fitted.

So far in this case alone I think there is enough to be concerned about. Ben may well have shot his employer in the foot with his statements alone.

You make your choices and pay your money just be sure you are fully informed and not misled.

As for anything I'm in the process of doing. I have managed to gather some used equipment and the buyer, who I consider a friend, knows EXACTLY what we have purchased. So Ben by all means have an opinion but before you pass it on speak to Steven and be informed. Just in the same way as he was when you offered for sale your CP55.

Regards.

Posted by Burleigh Ibbott (Member # 3917) on 04-28-2008, 05:40 PM:

HI
Sorry its taken a while to get back as i was on a golf (18 pubs)pub crawl over the weekend (rugby club last match of the season).

Thanks Ben for being up front and letting me know about the projectors. I do know there are always plus and minuses in products. I will muse over the choice and get more advice as i am not fully experienced in this area even tho i come from electro/mechanical engineering background.

Ken also thanks for your advice too as its good to look at things outside the box the so called box if you understand me and you have made worth while points too.

The issue here is something i have to make a decision about as i know there are not many refurbished machines. This Philips is tempting too as i know it was fully working till 2 months ago aprox. If anyone like to see it just PM me.