Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Building Up and Breaking Down Film.

This is topic Building Up and Breaking Down Film. in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Raymond Christie (Member # 4080) on 05-03-2008, 02:23 PM:

How long should it take to build up a film? (6 reel for example)

How long should it take to break it down? (6 reel)

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 05-03-2008, 02:33 PM:

Whenever Technicolor or Deluxe calls inquiring when we can have a print ready for Courier pick-up on Thursday night, I check when the movie is scheduled to end and estimate 5 minutes per reel for tear-down and 5 minutes to set-up the table.
Example: Superhero Movie, 5 reels long. Ends at 12:00 midnight.
"We'll have it ready by half-past midnight."
Build-up time depends on whether one builds up on 6000 foot reels or out of the can, and thus is too variable for me to estimate.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-03-2008, 03:26 PM:

Building up film depends on how you do it.

If you build up properly (properly meaning with a Goldberg platter reel, then a typical 6 reel movie by someone with reasonable experience can be done from cans to platter ready to run in 20 minutes. Someone without as much experience may take 45 minutes to do it.

If you are building "old school" style like this where you build the first half to a 6K reel, rewind, then start loading while you build the second half to another 6K reel, then load, depending on your platter and experience this could take anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half.

If you are building "old school like a retard" style where you build each shipping reel direct to the platter, you just suck. It will take about the same time as the 6K method above, only that your film handling will suffer.

Any theater without a Goldberg platter reel really should just shut down.

Breaking down - I usually tell the courier 30 minutes if it is a late pickup and there will be issues with the front doors being locked. If it is a 7pm showing for a security print, I tell them an hour because when it ends the projectionist may have to be dealing with other movies starting and such. Having the print ready early=fine. Not having the print at the agreed upon time=unfair to the courier.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-03-2008, 07:36 PM:

Related to what Brad's saying:
Lately, we've had couriers show up at random times to pick up a print because someone will tell the courier company a specific time it'll be available and the actual courier is never relayed that information and just told to show up at a vague "mid-day", "early evening" , etc.

Posted by Ben Goodman (Member # 4770) on 05-04-2008, 12:29 AM:

To break down a regular 6 reel film, assuming you're keeping the trailers, a standard time for someone who knows what they're doing would probably be about half an hour (or a little less). For someone who's just learning how to do a breakdown and/or misses splices, it's probably about 45 minutes.

As for buildup, I speak from the corporate environment with the analog preshow. Infinite prefeature snipes (most of which don't have framelines)-- fandango, coke ads, tech ads, etc-- plus 6 trailers per print takes a while to build up. I'm not that great at it so it takes be about an hour to an hour and a half. Our most experienced booth guy, who's been building prints for 30 years, can have them completely together within 45 minutes.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-04-2008, 03:08 AM:

For a 6 reel film that is all heads out it takes me about an hour from cracking the can to starting the second 6000' reel winding on the platter (I sent my boss the info on the Goldberg reels). If the print is all tales out then it takes about 15 minutes less. If it's mixed heads and tales then it all depends on which reels are which.

It probably takes me a bit longer than the times mentioned above because I don't crank the winding table all the way to top speed and I stop to remove the glue splices (I hate the way they look on screen).

For breakdown it takes me about 3 minutes per reel as long as I don't have to take apart any of the reels to reposition the core and I don't have any problems finding splices. But I will usually allow 30-45 minutes when I have to break down for a courier because I am also the manager and I have other duties on Thursday night.

Posted by Chad M Calpito (Member # 3736) on 05-05-2008, 03:59 AM:

I just looked at the Goldberg Platter Reel and I certainly wished I had at least 3 of those in my booth. Those would certainly make things easier in my booth when building, etc. I'm gonna have to talk with my managers about this one and see what they say.

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 05-05-2008, 04:07 AM:

Usually takes me 1 and a half to 2 hours ( more toward 2 hours ), but our small booth ( 9 screens ) runs only 1 person at a time so that includes threading / starting along with the building. Break down is about a half an hour.

Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 05-05-2008, 05:51 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
If you are building "old school like a retard" style

::sigh:: That'd be the way I was taught, and good at it too (as much as one can be). When its taught to you as the preferred (by that person who was teaching), you learn how to get it down to an art. I got it to where there was minimal-no buckling after the ring was pulled out, with minimal static, and smooth splices (most others couldn't hear the splice go through). Yes, when I was initially being trained, I was pretty much shown every bad habit know to man as what we should do.(short of eating fried chicken during film handing. And that was probably only due to the fact that we didn't have any available at the time. "And you want to make sure you keep a full stomach during build ::munch munch ::") But even before I came on here, I realized that alot of what I was shown was either bass akwards, silly, or downright stupid. Reading here only further served to help purge the bad habits. None of the theatre's I worked at had goldbergs, though I wish they did. So I learned to use the 6ks. Though I was being as carful as possible with the "Retard method", it still could introduce unnecessary problems, and besides, the 6ks allow me to multitask. As mentioned before, you can be building a reel, while another is winding off to a platter.

I think the Savannah 10 has one. I remember seeing it while over there certifying for level-2. Asked the trainer about it "Isn't that one of those platter reels?", but he just shrugged his shoulders, and showed me how to build to the 6000ft reels (though I was already doing that long before that). I even explained to him what it was for, and you could build an entire movie to it, and play straight off of it. Eh, well, if they won't use it, I wouldn't mind having it.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-05-2008, 08:34 AM:

Only to shift the topic slightly, but to any of you change-over guys -- how long does it take to "make-up" a reel-to-reel print. By make-up I mean a print that comes in with heads and tails just masking taped on and three or four layers of splicing tape at each join that has to be removed, leaders spliced back on properly. This is assuming the print is otherwise in good condition -- no splices within the body that need to be replaced, no change-over cues that have to be added and no count-down sync leaders that have to be retimed or corrected.

I got just such a print this weekend and it took me about an 1-hr 30min - 1hr 45min to do all the fingernail scraping of the tape, cleaning all the glue off the joins, rewinding twice to get onto house reels and adding clear head identification information on each leader (reel number, title, reel number side ways, format information).

For other prints that were NOT in good such condition, and more reels that the typical 5 or 6, it has taken me as much as 3 maybe 3.5 hours to fully prep a badly mauled print. This leads to the question, where do you draw the line on how much time to spend before you have say, it is becomming an issue of diminshing returns economically to invest that kind of work-hours on a print that may not even bring in as much money as it is costing to repair.

We've once tried to bill back the repair time to the distributor. You could hear the laughter on the other end of the phone without even holding it to your ear.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-05-2008, 09:03 AM:

I generally budget an hour for makeup, whether to 2000' reels, 6000' reels, or platter. Add another half-hour to platter makeup if the makeup table is crappy (e.g. Super Platter or old-style SPECO) and requires attention while the film is spinning onto the platter from 6000' reels.

This works if the print is in "typical" condition, as Frank discusses, and of "typical" length. It can sometimes be faster to make up a print for big reels or a platter than for small reels if there are issues with the leaders or cues. Add another 15-20 minutes for a standard trailer reel (5-6 "items," in mixed head/tail orientation, from trailer cores).

The only time saving feature of a changeover booth at makeup time is the ability to start the show after the first reel is ready. Obviously, "breakdown" time is zero.

For platter breakdown, I budget thirty minutes, but, like Brad, will specify an hour if the print is to be picked up immediately after the show, so as to avoid angry couriers. I have yet to see any theatre in this area with a Goldberg platter reel.

Posted by Raymond Christie (Member # 4080) on 05-05-2008, 12:37 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
If you are building "old school like a retard" style where you build each shipping reel direct to the platter, you just suck. It will take about the same time as the 6K method above, only that your film handling will suffer.

Sad but this is the way I learned. I may and try to change it in the future. This has helped out a lot. I projectionists are building up in about 40 minutes and tearing down in about 30 to 40 minutes.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-05-2008, 03:06 PM:

When I took over the theatre I manage now, all the film was built up by loading the 2K reels directly on to the platter. The thing that really bothers me about that is our booth is not particularly bright so all the splicing was being done on the make-up table where it was difficult to see what you're doing. Plus there was absolutely no inspection of the film.

Building on the 6K reels allows me to inspect the film for damaged perfs, stray pieces of tape, major development issues, and glue splices (which I always remove).

The other thing I changed was they used solid yellow tape for all splices. We now use a zebra tape (sorry if that's not the right term) for reel changes and a clear tape for anything done mid reel.

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-06-2008, 06:38 PM:

I hand inspect everything at my theatre. We always get new prints, except during the free kid shows. [evil]

Those prints are fun, sometimes.

Anyway, I often find edge damage, rotton lab splices, etc. in the new prints. I dont like to take the chance. I dont like messing up prints in any way.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-06-2008, 10:26 PM:

Should be your own speed when doing the "makes and breaks" so you won't be having a fubar attack in either case. That is the operator to find out what his speed is.

If you're fast at both, then good for you. If you're slow at both, then good for you as well cuz you're being careful.

-Monte

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-06-2008, 11:01 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Should be your own speed when doing the "makes and breaks" so you won't be having a fubar attack in either case. That is the operator to find out what his speed is.

When I'm training new people, one of the main things I emphasis is they should never go faster than they feel comfortable. Keeping in mind that the faster they go, the longer it will take to stop if there is a problem - or even at the reel change.

The main reason I even bother to keep track of how long it takes is so that I can budget my time. That's why I also teach my projection people to time themselves on threading. Not because they are racing for the best time, but so they can budget their time.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-07-2008, 12:12 AM:

Also, in addition: The platter reel device looks like the way to go on doing films, but unfortunately with theatres employeed with 'booth clowns' and owners who doesn't believe in anything convienient for their employees in making their required jobs easier, it's a scoffed-off item - along with the platter ring, good leaders, and other helpful items..

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-07-2008, 02:44 AM:

I sent my boss the information about those Goldberg reels and he ordered 1 for each of our locations within a couple days.

I'm very curious to try it out, but I can see a couple potential problems. The first being that if we have more than one print to build up in a day, it's only going to help us on one.

The other major issue is that two of the three people who know how to build film at my theatre are relatively small women. There is no way they are going to be able to move that reel around.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-07-2008, 03:21 AM:

We only had one at a 16-plex and we were able to build all of our films each week with it. You just have to carefully slide the print off if it and onto a platter, but it's your problem if you mess it up so DO NOT ATTEMPT it if you do not feel 100% comfortable and do not know exactly what you are doing and how you are doing it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-07-2008, 11:56 AM:

One thing I tell newbies who are using the platter reel for the first time is to stand the print vertically on end, remove the bottom side flange, with the help of an assistant pinch the two flanges back together (note the bottom is not connected) and set the print right-side up on a table. Now remove the top flange and clamp the print (there are 3 notches in the center ring to accommodate this). Then set on the platter like you are used to doing.

Fair warning, you need to pay particular attention to your rewind table's backtension/clutch setting. Too tight and you will never get the center ring out!!! Too loose and it will be damn near impossible to move the print. It is always best to start with short prints until you get your tension figured out.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-07-2008, 03:52 PM:

The condition of the print when you receive it can have an impact on making up time. For a new print or one which had been packed off by a professional, I factored in half an hour at most of the platter and tower houses I worked (but of course a new print would then need a rehearsal show to identify any printing or photographic defects, as distinct from physical damage which can almost always be identified on the bench). But if it was an old and worn repertory print with lots of joins, split perfs etc., or if it had been packed off badly (e.g. some reels head out, others tail out, multiple layers of splicing tape left on the end, an uneven wind with edge damaged, crushed cores, that sort of thing) it could easily take me an hour to do the job properly, even in my last year in the business when I already had a decade or so's experience. A really grim one could take longer than that. Sometimes I resented it, because I was effectively repairing a print which the distributor couldn't be bothered to look after: but that's not your customers' fault.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 05-13-2008, 06:11 AM:

Up to about 14 months ago we used to run prints on the original 2000ft spools (changeovers every 20 minutes or so). Generally, these prints (not being first-run) would take about 60-80 minutes to make-up. Prints over 120 minutes in duration might take slightly longer.

No we run on 6000ft spools, the make-up time is slightly shorter - not having to check the cue dots or leaders on quite so many reels. Of course, the breaking-down process is now slightly more involved than it used to be!

As mentioned before, it all depends on the quality and condition of the print. We never receive brand new copies of prints - and this makes a big difference. Bollywood prints (minus any leaders or tails)can cause a headache!!

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-13-2008, 12:14 PM:

Being the only projectionist of our small art house who can build prints up with confidence I have seen the best and the worst. Most of the films we get are foreign, and we have a few US made Indi films, as well as some smaller big time movies. However I always dread getting the big time movies the most. Why? Because I always have problems, because I can almost guarantee every time the print came from a multiplex that have under trained projectionists. Example, My last somewhat big film was Charlie Wilson’s War. Whoever touched the print I received before me should have been taken out and wiped. The print was in shambles. The heads were all missing; turns out they were under the tails on the reels. The tails were all disorganized and out of place. So I did not know what reel was what at first, some of the frames were missing form the tails, some form heads, I had a hard time putting it together. The only reel I could positively identify without a doubt was reel one)…another big problem was the excessive scratches, and damage to the film.

Some films come and they are shipped out the way I do it, (the way I would want to receive it). While others (mainly bigger films) are shipped out in really bad shape, I know not all multiplex projectionists are bad but the track record on some of the bigger more profitable films goes to show that something must be going on at these bigger cinemas. Some of the foreign stuff I get is packed with just clear head leaders and nothing marking what they are and what they attach to. This I tell you is a challenge some times and holds up the time in building.

All in all I can build a previously built movie (as long as it is heads out) in about 40 to 45 minutes (30 min full throttle). It takes me twice as long with tails out because I lack a rewind table (I am building a new one soon).

mike