This is topic Where is the proper place to cut following the second set of change over cues? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-04-2008, 03:24 AM:
Normally I just leave one frame on the head and tail, but I'm never sure where to cut when the reel ends with a fade. For that matter, I'm always guessing where to cut when it begins with a fade.
***EDIT***
My question should have read "Where is the proper place to cut following the second set of change over cues?".
[ 05-05-2008, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Sisemore ]
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-04-2008, 03:45 AM:
Do not cut off any frames. After the last reel change cue, the 18th frame is the final one.
Posted by Mike Schulz (Member # 4297) on 05-04-2008, 05:32 AM:
I concur with Joe. Most current prints have 12'6 motor cue and a 1'6 changeover cue and each set will have 4 cue marks so 18 frames is 1'2 which would be right after the last set of cues.
Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 05-04-2008, 05:38 AM:
Yup. Though there is some debate about cutting off an "identification frame" with the head or tail, to allow you to visually match the reels with their heads and tails. In theory, you only end up slicing out 2 frames (1 from the previous tail and 1 from the head of the next reel), which won't really be noticable. And that's fine. In reality it isn't necissary if you are keeping track of what reel you're on, and have the heads and tails labeled properly. The only reason I did it when I was working was because it was policy.
What I hate is those fade outs, where there are no visible burn marks, and no "splice here" or other like markings. On Kill Dill 2, we had to guess where the last frame was by looking where the sound stopped and counting back frames using sproket holes/4 or simply overlay a leader on it and counting the frames. Darn monologue. ![[fu]](graemlins/fu.gif)
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-04-2008, 06:39 AM:
A long time ago at the first theater I worked at, we had what was called a "union projectionist". Weird. Anyway, this guy would slice off 4 frames from each head and tail. Not sure why. Perhaps this was one of the weaknesses that helped us to defeat the union and claim victory for ourselves!
Posted by Mike Schulz (Member # 4297) on 05-04-2008, 06:48 AM:
We usually cut one reference frame at the head and tail of every reel and also splice it back together before we ship it out to not lose any frames.
We never cut reference frames on showprints or select prints.
I'm with Joe on trying to figure out why anybody would find it necessary to cut more than one reference frame. I have also seen prints where one of the previous locations had cut up to 5 frames. It makes no logical sense to me at all.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-04-2008, 07:13 AM:
Could we please not use the term "cigarette burn"? It's embarassing and unprofessional. This is not Fight Club, folks, it is the real world.
Thanks.
--jhawk
Card Carrying Member of the Projectionist's Purity League
Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 05-04-2008, 07:14 AM:
A frame counter should be used when faced with fades to or from black. Are these expensive in the US?
Many theatrical prints today no longer carry cue marks ("cigarette burns" is a fictional term invented in Fight Club ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
), and a frame counter allows one to locate the correct cut point, and to cut it in rack, with a minimum of handling.
Having to lay film out on the bench over a piece of leader, or holding lengths up to the light trying to find the cut point, entails lots of handling, exposure to dirt and dust, etc.
[Edit: Jhawk - clearly I must join this Purity League ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
]
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-04-2008, 07:29 AM:
Frame counters and sync blocks are rare items in most US booths, and they are relatively expensive, several hundred dollars new (though you can get them used for $50-ish).
For this sort of thing (counting short frame lengths), I recommend a paper blotter on the bench. We put down a length of film (at least a second, more if you have room) and trace the outline onto the paper, mark the paper through the perfs with a marker, and remove the film. Mark the frame boundaries with a ruler and label each frame with its number. It makes it really fast to count a small number of frames (under a second), and costs you nothing.
Takes you 5 minutes to make and ours last around 6 months.
By all means, hunt for a sync block, but in the meantime, this is a useful tool for any booth.
--jhawk
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-04-2008, 07:45 AM:
For what it's worth, my theatre does have a frame counter.
Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 05-04-2008, 08:20 AM:
Joe, just how the heck do you consider what has happened in the exhibition industry a victory?
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-04-2008, 10:02 AM:
I agree with J Hawk 100% when I laid my eyes on the title of this thread it was all I could do to actually read through it before hitting the "post reply" button. Im pissed that Jhawk neat me to it! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
AFAIK no one ever called CHANGE OVER CUES cigarette burns until that stupid movie came out. Smoking (at least in mass) is and always has been illegal in booths due to the explosiveness of Nitrate Film. As a matter of fact if someone even tried to use a cigarette to burn a change over cue into a nitrate print they would have burned to death as the cigarette would have ignited the film and caused the whole reel to catch fire and explode.
They are Changeover Cues.
Ps: I do not mean to berate Justin, it is not his fault if I didnt know better and saw that movie I would have though that was an insiders term for c/o cues also. Please don't take it personally Justin it is just a long discussed topic on here our disdain for the projection booth scenes in Fight Club which are wholly false and innacurate.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-04-2008, 10:09 AM:
It should be noted that some prints have 24 frames after the second set of cues. There are two "standards" for this for no apparent reason.
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-04-2008, 10:52 AM:
I don't take offense to any of the disdain for the term "cigarette burns". I was very much aware that the term was used in Fight Club - if not originated in the movie. And you'll notice that I put the term in quotes because I knew that wasn't the correct term. I had a hunch that "change over cues" was the correct term, but I figured everyone would know exactly what I meant.
For what it's worth, my experience in the booth goes back about 12 years. I have worked in 3 different multiplexes and all three use platters. Although I know the basics of two projector projection, I have never used it and have never actually watched it in action.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-04-2008, 11:08 AM:
You'd score extra points in my book if you retitled the thread ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But sometimes I feel like I'm on a one-man campaign. (Sorry, Brian and Sean -- three-man!)
Anyhow, basically everyone here is right. 18 frames is the answer for the vast majority of modern release prints from Deluxe and Technicolor. But if you have an odd title, an arthouse title, a foreign title, a print from a foreign lab, or an older title, it pays to check (Prior to 2001 or so, Deluxe and Technicolor put the cues in different places). Ideally you should be able to find a reel where it is unambiguous and check it, and then use that as the standard for the remaining reels.
--jhawk
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-04-2008, 02:05 PM:
quote:
Could we please not use the term "cigarette burn"? It's embarassing and unprofessional. This is not Fight Club, folks, it is the real world.
THANK YOU!!!
quote: Mike Schulz
I have also seen prints where one of the previous locations had cut up to 5 frames. It makes no logical sense to me at all.
Back in the days the "old school" projectionists that Joe loves so much felt they had to cut off 5 frames not only because they were incompetent, but because of the foolish idea that they HAD to have an ID frame. Yes I said "an ID frame", as in singular. Remember back in the day before tape splicers, you would lose 2 frames on every splice that you made with a cement splicer. This is why I have seen as many as 12 ID frames cut off at each head and each tail on older prints even so recent as the early 80s. It is the result of nobody thinking for themselves and using reasoning as to why that is such a stupid practice. (After all, many of those theaters ran changeovers back then, and cutting off 5, 8, 12 frames at the tail would lose 2 frames, then after re-attaching the leaders for shipout the next theater would potentially lose 2 more frames on re-buildup for a total of 4 frames from each changeover. After a couple of playdates the second changeover cue no longer existed!!!)
quote: Scott Norwood
It should be noted that some prints have 24 frames after the second set of cues. There are two "standards" for this for no apparent reason.
All current prints from the major labs have now standardized to 18 frames of content after the last changeover cue.
There are many ways of being able to positively identify which leader matches up to which reel WITHOUT using an ID frame. Cutting ID frames removes content from the movie, and for the "old school" guys, in this day and age virtually nobody deciding where the reel changes are placed gives a flip about changeover theaters by holding the shots at the reel changes a few extra seconds to allow for missing frames and sloppily timed changovers. Sorry guys, but that is just the way it is. As a result changeovers have become more and more tighter since they expect for each print to play no more than 2 engagements in the life of the print (usually just one).
Bottom line - although a professional projectionist does not need ID frames on a print, if you feel you HAVE to have an ID frame for whatever your reason may be, cut ONE frame ONLY at the head leader. There is no excuse in the world to cut a frame on the tail leader. One ID frame is enough for anyone with only a handful of brain cells to positively identify a given reel and that cuts the missing frames at the changeovers down by half AND shows some respect for the few changeover theaters left by not having them jump the gun on the second cue because there are missing frames. Remember only a few copies of each movie are kept for archival purposes and the print you are handling today might be the only one left in existence 20 years from now.
Posted by Derrick Huggins (Member # 4670) on 05-04-2008, 02:11 PM:
There is nothing embarrising or unprofesional about "cigarete burns" that is a very common word used for many projectionisits.if you dont like the term, then dont use it. but please do not tell others what is proffesional, and what is not. maybe you dont wipe your ass the right way either, but im not gonna knock you for it.let me guess...you probally wear gloves when you build a print so you dont get your fingerprints on it also? lol
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-04-2008, 02:13 PM:
Derrick, no professional ever used that term before Fight Club came out. It is stupid and you will find a hated term among professionals.
Posted by Derrick Huggins (Member # 4670) on 05-04-2008, 02:16 PM:
funny thing..i heard that term many times, and had used it looong before "fight club" you think that the movie was the one to introduce that? and at any rate, i like the term, and thats what i use.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-04-2008, 02:18 PM:
Derrick, how long have you been a projectionist?
I suppose you can debate whether it is "unprofessional" (clearly that is subjective), but many of us are certainly embarrassed by it. When the movie Fight Club came out, the term seemed silly and childish. No one had used the term "cigarette burns" to refer to "changeover cues," "cues," "cue marks," or "motor cues," prior to that movie.
Every time the term "cigarette burns" was used after Fight Club, the general reaction of most professional projectionists was to sigh and think, "That person has no idea what they are talking about. They saw Fight Club, but they don't know the industry terminology."
Now, eight years after Fight Club, there may indeed be projectionists who use that term. Language evolves, that's true. But those of us who have been around the block do find the term unprofessional, jarring, and embarrassing. Some of us to the level of "wouldn't be caught dead saying it." If you'd like our respect, and you would like us to take you seriously, please refrain from using it.
--jhawk
Posted by Derrick Huggins (Member # 4670) on 05-04-2008, 02:27 PM:
back to the main topic....just leave one frame at the head and tail, and be done with it. no sense in being anal about it...after a print has been in a theater for more than a few weeks, it is already damaged enough..just get it out of your theater.
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 05-04-2008, 02:28 PM:
Back on topic, if a theatre doesn't have a frame counter, you can take a leader from another reel without a fade out, lay it over the one you are looking to cut, line up the '3' mark, and then cut the fade out leader. I usually use an extra splicer to get both leaders lined up right.
Posted by Derrick Huggins (Member # 4670) on 05-04-2008, 02:30 PM:
You have more than 1 splicer>? WOW! i cant even get new blades after 4 years...
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-04-2008, 02:35 PM:
quote: J-Hawk
Could we please not use the term "cigarette burn"? It's embarassing and unprofessional. This is not Fight Club, folks, it is the real world.
You're not alone, J-Hawk! Please change the thread title!
This is a fake term. They are CUE MARKS. I have been in this business since 1974, and have serviced booths all over the country since 1982, and I've never heard "cigarette burns" before "Fight Club". The movie/book just made that up. It was written by someone who obviously wasn't involved in the motion picture industry. quote: Derrick Huggins
i heard that term many times, and had used it looong before "fight club"
Humm, I service theatres in New York, and I've never heard it there, either.
Posted by Derrick Huggins (Member # 4670) on 05-04-2008, 02:38 PM:
Smoking is illegal in booths? did you mean pot, or just cigaretes, because i smoke them both all day in my booths..
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-04-2008, 02:50 PM:
quote: Derrick Huggins
You have more than 1 splicer>? WOW! i cant even get new blades after 4 years...
Keep your splicer clean, well adjusted and free from foreign contaminants like... oh... say... cigarette smoke... and the blades will last for quite a long time.
I've been using the same blades for more than 7 years. The only reason I keep a set of spares is becasue I want to have a backup in case some idiot drops the splicer or some retard starts smacking the splicer handle like a stapler.
Abusing a splicer would get a person hollered at, written up and eventually fired if you worked in my booth.
I do have my workers cut off one (and only one) ID frame at the head and tail leader because it helps them break down the film faster and with fewer mistakes. It saves me money (in my budget) and gets them home faster when they have to work at night after the movie is over.
We don't have much call for measuring the frames after the CUE MARK because we almost always get used prints. But we do have a piece of clear framing leader on hand, marked out for finding the proper spot to cut. We just lay it out on the (clean) bench. There is a star at the place where you line it up on the cue mark and a letter "X" marks the place(s) where you cut. We keep it rolled up and store it on the makeup bench.
For finding frames on film that is longer than 18/24 frames I have an old film sprocket that I've marked out in four sprocket increments. Just carefully roll it along the film and you have your frames lines.
Maybe someday when I can get the money I'll put in a P.O. for a frame counter/sync block but, we don't really need it very often.
I think I'd rather spend the money on other things first.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-04-2008, 03:11 PM:
quote: Derrick Huggins
after a print has been in a theater for more than a few weeks, it is already damaged enough..just get it out of your theater.
Bullshit notions like this are why digital is being pushed.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-04-2008, 03:17 PM:
Derrick is a pseudo person, right? Someone who created a phoney persona so he can say stuff just to make us go wild, right? Or he's one of those high school booth monkeys that actually think like this: quote: Derrick Huggins
maybe you dont wipe your ass the right way either, but im not gonna knock you for it.let me guess...you probally wear gloves when you build a print so you dont get your fingerprints on it also? lol
Surely this is a 16 yr old smartass right?
quote: Derrick Huggins
after a print has been in a theater for more than a few weeks, it is already damaged enough..just get it out of your theater.
And someone who has absolutely no respect for film. But then again, the way this theatre has been run, it isn't exactly the best learning experience.
quote: Derrick Huggins
Smoking is illegal in booths? did you mean pot, or just cigaretes, because i smoke them both all day in my booths..
Hmmm, nice attitude. In NYC, this would get your ass fired.
I guess I am lucky; I've had counters in all the booths I've ever worked. Get 'em used.
For years I have wanted to design one cheaply. There is no reason it needs to have expensive "counting" gears with digit display. If its only function was to let you see where frame lines are, this could be a plastic sprocket wheel with lines for the frame lines and with marks for a foot. It could have a built-in 12v light, a simple thing that you could make for very little $$. In leu of that, just take any old sprocket wheel, mount it on two small L brackets on a block of wood, mark it every 4 sprockets and use it to count frames and visualize frame lines. Piece a cake.
Posted by Derrick Huggins (Member # 4670) on 05-04-2008, 03:58 PM:
Thats not very nice..i just assumed that projectors (at least in older theaters) damage film, after oil leaking on them,extreme heat from the bulb, the gears grinding away, and the scratces that occur.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-04-2008, 04:05 PM:
According to his profile Derrick is 28. I don't buy that for a second. This guy's immaturity level couldn't even be 18. My money is on Frank's theory that he is 16, hasn't been in the booth but for a month and doesn't give a shit about anything except making beer money for the weekend.
Edit-a quick internet search shows he loves gangsta rap and his age to be 14. THAT age makes sense, although that could be bullshit too.
He is currently living in southern Florida, but I don't buy this seeking employment ad as being correct regarding him previously being a GM. No way.
Regardless he has violated forum rules by changing his location to a fake one (Gotham City) and is clearly here just to be a troll. Derrick is banned, not to mention an embarrassment to the profession.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-04-2008, 04:05 PM:
1) You shouldn't be scratching your prints
2) You shouldn't have oil leaks and should get them fixed
3) If you fixed those, the gears grinding wouldn't be so much of a problem
4) You shouldn't have extreme bulb heat but instead should have the lamphouse ventilated correctly and maybe adding in heat shielding if needed
edit: Wouldn't have bothered if I'd noticed he was banned
Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 05-04-2008, 04:07 PM:
Another nice feature in a footage counter would be an oversized sprocket wheel, with frame lines extending beyond the edge of the film.
quote: Derrick Huggins
Smoking is illegal in booths?
Over here the fire brigade check the presence of a "no smoking" sign in the booth (despite smoking being banned in public space more than 50% enclosed since 2004).
Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 05-04-2008, 05:25 PM:
The fellow who trained me in booth 28 years ago, H. Darwin Barnes, used to smoke in the booth and often in the lobby. This was legal to do at the time.
He always referred to the cue marks as "cue marks". He even owned a device which would properly make new cue marks if needed. (It resembled a small cement splicer.) He even owned a cement splicer, too.
Those who call cue marks "cigarette burns" also often confuse projectors with cameras. This annoyed Darwin, too. He also didn't care for people who referred to carbon-arc lamphousing as "gas lamps". "Just because it has a flame in it does not make it gas fired!"
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-04-2008, 05:41 PM:
I don't normally do this, but my pal Derrick is being an ass via email so what the heck. It turns out he also goes by another name, Mark Wolfson. Has anyone in the industry heard of either? I'm calling bullshit on everything from this guy and doubt either name is accurate.
I feel sorry for people in Miami. The guy has probably been smoking too much weed.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-04-2008, 05:50 PM:
Thank you for banning this guy. He was clearly just being a troll with the "Film gets damaged after a couple of weeks anyway so who cares?" comment. Ban his IP. Hell, ban his entire ISP. Unless I use the same ISP.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-04-2008, 06:16 PM:
Oh no, he claims he is worried about "identity theft". Heck, I stole your identity just last week Joe, and it was all because I found out your last name was REDIFER by reading these forums! HAHAHA! Yes REDIFER! I now have all of your money.
Posted by Mike Schulz (Member # 4297) on 05-04-2008, 06:29 PM:
No no no! You have it all wrong, Brad. It's "everybody wants to be like Mike" not "Joe" ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-04-2008, 07:10 PM:
Damn! So that's where all of my money and credit went.
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-04-2008, 08:41 PM:
Well, this certainly explains all those crazy, improbable posts he's been making (running lamps with absolutely no blowers, having so much oil on the film that the credits are smeared, slave-driving superiors... etc., etc.).
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-04-2008, 10:41 PM:
I can't count the number of times I've "repurposed" an old sprocket into a frame marker. Just take the old sprocket to the band saw (or hack saw) and cut it just enough across the sprocket (between the teeth) to have a nice bright shinny line that will never erase/wear out...do it every four teeth on 35mm or every 5-teeth on 70mm and whola you have what you need. You can then add a handle by using a suitably sized shaft (can be an old shaft out of a projector even) and suitable fasteners to keep the sprocket captivated on the shaft but spinning freely (no need for precision here).
Steve
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-04-2008, 11:57 PM:
I had no idea "cigarette burns" was such a taboo term around here. But I do think there is at least one valid reason for not renaming the subject of this thread. Anyone who has been around projection long enough, knows that "cigarette burns" refers to change over cues. But someone relatively new to projection may not know any term other than "cigarette burns" if they even know what they are.
With regard to reference frames. I will ALWAYS leave a reference frame on every single head and tail. I have received more than one used print where the projectionist who broke it down didn't bother to put the right heads and/or tails with each reel. The only way I was able to identify which reel was which was the reference frames on the heads and tails.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-05-2008, 12:14 AM:
Justin, I certainly hope there aren't places where "cigarette burns" are a more common term than "changeover cues." I guess you're telling me there are. That's just depressing. It's certainly not true around here...
Finally got around to taking some pictures.
Here's what I recommend for a paper blotter:
Zoom on the left:
Zoom on the right:
And much better than those stupid Neumade film measuring machines (sorry, John and Greg) is a sync block. Probably 1-gang sync block is what you want, but those don't tend to show up used. I can't bring myself to bandsaw down a bigger one, though it's been temptinng. This is a 2-gang:
Sorry for the crummy manual color-correction.
--jhawk
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-05-2008, 12:52 AM:
quote: John Hawkinson
Justin, I certainly hope there aren't places where "cigarette burns" are a more common term than "changeover cues." I guess you're telling me there are. That's just depressing. It's certainly not true around here...
I get the impression many of the regular contributors on FT are old school projectionists who remember "the good old days". While good film handling techniques and practices are still relevant, things like changeover cues really aren't relevant for the vast majority of people handling 35mm film today. The only reason I would care about them is if I need to use them to find the reel end when it ends with a fade.
Don't get me wrong, the reason I've started looking at the FT forums is to find information that will help me do my job better. But I do have to balance good practices with what is practical when I don't have a dedicated projectionist.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-05-2008, 01:04 AM:
It's not about remembering the "good old days", it's about being efficient and accurate. That goes for using proper terms and whatnot as well. Wouldn't you be a bit peeved if a customer assumed you could rewind the movie for them or pause it since we just use VCRs or DVDs in the booth? It's a similar concept here. If we're all on a different page as far as terms, then it just adds to the overall confusion. Of course that doesn't mean that we don't have old farts like Phil.
Don't get us wrong, we're more than happy to answer your question.
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-05-2008, 01:09 AM:
Actually Joe, I have customers almost every day who think movie theatres are all digital and that movies are projected off of DVDs or similar media. I think that working behind the scenes, we forget that most customers don't know what happens behind the scenes. They just know that the movies are on DVD at home, so they assume it's the same at the movie theatre. And this is especially true with all the noise about digital projection over the last few years.
And to answer your question, no I don't get upset when they ask me to pause or rewind the movie.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-05-2008, 01:13 AM:
And what do you do when you try to explain to them that you can't and they cannot/refuse to understand the concept and argue with you? Surely you must get a little annoyed on the inside (though you wouldn't show it to the customer).
The same concept can be applied here. People who have seen Fight Club think that they are called cigarette burns. Simple logic dictates that they CANNOT have always been called that. It is kind of insulting from a presentation standpoint.
I still have not seen Fight Club all the way through.
Posted by Ben Goodman (Member # 4770) on 05-05-2008, 01:18 AM:
For what it's worth, Fight Club has actually been helpful to some of the booth staff at my theatre-- when we do screenings, we train people to write down the reel changes and mark if any specific reels have been damaged. The easiest way to train someone how to tell if a reel change has happened is by asking them "Okay, have you ever seen Fight Club?"
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-05-2008, 01:31 AM:
Good grief...
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-05-2008, 01:35 AM:
Joe, I think you're hung up on the fact that the term cigarette burns makes some reference to cigarettes being in the projection room. It's just a term that has come into use because of some pop culture reference. And the same can be said for many different words in our language.
The real issue when it comes to saying cigarette burn or changeover cues or something else is whether the subject has been related clearly and unambiguously. To that end, when I say "cigarette burns", you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Along those lines, I have always known the "platter feed control assembly" as the brain. And I bet even a Christie rep/tech, would know exactly what I mean when I say brain.
Ok, I've said my piece on the subject and I'll leave it alone. I just don't think it's something worth getting bent out of shape about.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-05-2008, 01:58 AM:
quote: Justin Hamaker
Joe, I think you're hung up on the fact that the term cigarette burns makes some reference to cigarettes being in the projection room.
I am? Wow, I learn something new about myself every day!
Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 05-05-2008, 02:53 AM:
It is important to know your proper nomenclature, just like it would be for a car mechanic, doctor, etc. Even if you use slang terms, they are just that slang. And even if you still decide to continue using them, for some reason, in your daily conversations, rather than the proper terms, you'd still do better to at least know the proper terms.
I find that this whole thread has become repetitive and only serves as a source of frustration for almost everyone involved in its discussion. This guy thinks that guy's a moron. That guy thinks this guy's an anus. This is getting juvenile. ![[puke]](graemlins/puke.gif)
The question was answered on page one. We're (supposed to be) a group of professionals, not a bunch of high schoolers. I recommend we move on, or close this thread (or both), before a fight breaks out or something. Good grief.
Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 05-05-2008, 08:12 AM:
Back on topic, it's worth adding that (in the US at least) the positioning of Cue Marks is governed by SMPTE Standard 301-1999 Theater Projection Leader, Trailer and Cue Marks and can be ordered on line from the SMPTE.
Internationally there are the ISO (International Standards Organisation) standards for Cinematography that also cover this area; these may account for slight variations in Cue Mark placement on non-US prints.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-05-2008, 10:18 AM:
quote: Charles Greenlee
I recommend we move on, or close this thread (or both), before a fight breaks out or something.
No! This is the kind of thing that makes Film-Tech fun. There have been more knock-down drag-out wars of words started over crazy little things here than I like to think about, but it makes interesting reading.
I've never seen Fight Club and I'm beginning to be even gladder than I used to be about it.
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-05-2008, 10:29 AM:
Fight Club's a great flick...except it refers to cue marks as cigarette burns. It's stupid and they've never been referred to as that in my lifetime as a projectionist.
Well, not before Fight Club, anyway...
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-05-2008, 10:42 AM:
quote: Justin Hamaker
It's just a term that has come into use because of some pop culture reference.
Actually, it has not come into use - a handful of people are erroneously saying it, but they're beginners who don't know any better. It's not an industry-accepted, or industry-used term.
"Brain" is an industry-wide term in common use. So is "mutt," "light engine," and "ingest"... all of which I cannot stand, but I use them because they are accepted industry terms.
We are the arbiters of our language. Trust me, anyone who uses the "Fight Club" reference is viewed as a consumer. quote: Joe Redifer
I still have not seen Fight Club all the way through.
Me, neither. I walked out in a huff when he mentioned the cue marks.
Actually, I thought it was a silly movie that was just too "down with it's bad self," in a Walter Hill kinda way.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-05-2008, 11:56 AM:
If you're mad that people pronounce "mut" instead of "make up table" do you get mad at people who say "Oh sha" instead of "occupational safety and health administration"?
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-05-2008, 12:21 PM:
I didn't say it makes me mad, I just said I don't like those words. FWIW, I DO normally say "make-up table" and "feedout plate," but I will condescend to use the accepted slang terms on occasion.
No, OSHA's fine. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 05-05-2008, 12:59 PM:
quote: Justin Hamaker
My question should have read "Where is the proper place to cut following the second set of change over cues?".
Fixed.
This thread has been derailed long enough by the 'cigarette burns'/Fight Club arguments- Let's take those to this thread
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-06-2008, 06:32 AM:
Brad,
I noticed by the email adress posted in the "seeking work" post by our friend the 14 year old General Manager that he is a "Hittman" I am just letting you know as I would be scared for my life if I were you!
Man, if this kid had ever worked in one of my theatres I would have quickly found ANY little thing to write him up for so I could FIRE him ASAP!
Unsing a fake name is a violation of the TOS on this forum, as well as the fake location.
Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 05-06-2008, 12:01 PM:
Derrick is one of the reasons management should meet employee applicants when they bring their application back..."I'm sorry, we are not hiring at this time."
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-06-2008, 04:40 PM:
quote: James Westbrook
Derrick is one of the reasons management should meet employee applicants when they bring their application back..."I'm sorry, we are not hiring at this time."
No, no... The correct, phrase should be, "I'm sorry, we don't have any positions for you."
Note, I didn't say I didn't have any positions. I said, "...positions FOR YOU."
Subtle difference in phrasing. Big difference in meaning.
But, "truth in advertising", always.
Posted by Ben Goodman (Member # 4770) on 05-06-2008, 10:53 PM:
"The HR team will review your application. If it fits with what we need at this time, we will contact you in the near future."
Bulletproof.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-06-2008, 11:51 PM:
You guys are so polite. I mean, the honest thing to do is tell the guy "sorry but we don't hire immature morons like yourself" so perhaps he can realize that he needs to grow up a bit.
Freakin' silly PC nonsense.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-07-2008, 11:19 AM:
I don't think saying, "I don't have a position for you." is PC.
I think it's 'telling him like it is' in a polite, businesslike manner. One of the things that peeve me off the most is when people dodge the question, "Did I get hired?" by hiding behind the telephone or some silly policy. The guy (potential applicant) deserves the minimum respect of an answer.
You could say, "No. You're not hired." but that makes you look like the A-hole. You could use the old line, "Don't call us. We'll call you." but everybody knows that's pretty much a put-down, these days.
Saying "I don't have a position for you." is a simple, polite way of saying, "I looked at your application and I don't have any jobs that I think you are qualified for." It's short, sweet and it gets the job done.
Plus, it doesn't make you look like the A-hole.
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 05-07-2008, 01:36 PM:
Randy, you say that like being an asshole is a bad thing.
There's nothing wrong with being thought of as an asshole and in fact there is a lot of good associated with it. Being an asshole is the fastest and most efficient way of getting ahead in this world, and has been for a long time. I'm not saying that nice guys don't get ahead too, but it's rare. Very rare.
So I say work on being the biggest asshole one can be, especially towards sensitive PC types, and be proud of the resulting reputation. Do that and one will go far. A lot farther than by trying to not offend everyone.
Most people today, like our recently and dearly departed Derrick, not only deserve but need to have an asshole being constantly in their face.
No one respects a nice guy. People may like them, but they don't respect them. Nice guys are weak. Nice guys are wimps. Nice guys are losers. Nice guys always finish last. When something needs doing, an asshole will always be the best man for the job.
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-07-2008, 02:19 PM:
quote: Randy Stankey
I think it's 'telling him like it is' in a polite, businesslike manner. One of the things that peeve me off the most is when people dodge the question, "Did I get hired?" by hiding behind the telephone or some silly policy. The guy (potential applicant) deserves the minimum respect of an answer.
Yeah I agree, Randy. I know this is off topic but, When I was a manager I always told applicants right then and there after I interviewed them. I recently went on three interviews with National Amusements (not counting then one they re-scheduled after I was showered, shaved, dressed in a suit and pulling out of my driveway on the way to the theatre) and passed thier extensive background check. The last interview I had was with the GM of the theatre after interviewing with the DM twice. When I interviewed with the GM he told me "You WILL hear from me or Mr.DM on Monday to schedule your final interview" To this day I have never heard anything from them and my phone calls were ignored. I found this extremely rude and unprofessional, This particular theatre is an hour from my house and I spent a lot of money I didn't have in gas to get there, and they didn't even have the courtesy to call me and say "no thank you." I would never ever work for them now, Even if they called me and asked me to come to work for them I would say no.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-07-2008, 03:53 PM:
I understand about that, Paul. In the case of a kid like Derwood... or Darrin... or whatever the hell his name was... I agree with you.
I also generally agree with your policy of "radical honesty". It doesn't do anybody any favors to be "artificially nice" to them when they don't deserve it.
I guess I was thinking more about the case of a regular applicant for a job in a theater or some other business. In that case, it is in the business's interest to give the "bad news" to the applicant in a "nice" way but, still, a "direct" way. Saying, "I don't have any openings for you." is about as nice, yet still direct way I can think of.
If, after being told, "I don't have a job for you." the kid pushes the issue, you probably have the go-ahead to open up on him. "You're not qualified." "You are too immature for the level of responsibility we expect our employees to stand up to." or anything else that is true but doesn't stoop to a personal insult would be fair game to say.
I think it is incorrect to equate being "polite" with being "PC".
It is also situational.
There are times to tell somebody, "That's wrong..." and there are times when, "It would be better if..." is the right thing to say. In certain situations, it is even okay to tell somebody, "No. I want you to do it this way..." is all right. You have to know the situation and gage your response to match.
In a theater where you are dealing with the public, the first line of response should be the "Polite but Direct" way. When the person pushes you past the line of polite response, a "less nice" response may be called for.
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 05-07-2008, 04:40 PM:
quote: Paul Mayer
No one respects a nice guy.
Yep, I hear ya. I've been a nice guy all of my life. I always try friendly persuasion to get people to see things my way. I'm very patient with them, too, and I give them a wide berth to come around to my way of thinking.
And whenever they don't, I just beat their ass.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-07-2008, 07:57 PM:
Being "nice" does not equate with being a "door mat."
Being "polite" does not equate with "PC."
You can still be "nice" but speak directly and stand your ground when you need to. Just because you give people respect when they deserve it doesn't mean you have to let them push you around. If somebody tries to give you the crap end of a deal, you don't have to accept it just because you are a "nice" person.
If you find yourself in a situation where somebody is trying to give you the shaft you can simply say, "No." But it doesn't give you permission to verbally abuse them or put them down when they haven't given you any provocation.
I never said you can't defend yourself, physically or verbally, when somebody does wrong to you.
And, when you're in your own home, do whatever you want. (Maybe I should be careful to make that distinction.) But, when you are at your business, there's no reason to be impolite just because you think you'll somehow "get ahead". It will probably set you back in the long run.
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 05-07-2008, 10:03 PM:
quote: Tim Reed
And whenever they don't, I just beat their ass.
![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
My favorite quote from Babylon 5:
quote:
"It's like I always say, you get more with a kind word and a two-by-four than with just a kind word."
Marcus Cole
I'm going to adopt Joe's sig motto, "You need a beating today" as my approach to dealing with life from now on. I like the idea of administering a good beating to a deserving someone on a daily basis and the beatings don't even have to be physical. Yelling at and insulting people works almost as well. Hey, it works for my heros like Gordon Ramsey or the character John House on TV, or James Cameron on his movie sets, or even John Sununu in the White House during the reign of Bush I. Like those guys, I am known for not suffering fools well. But obviously that's not enough. Seeing how life's spoils always go to personalities like these, I really want to cultivate a reputation for being a blunt, non-PC, but passionate asshole.
* * * * *
There was a topic around here somewhere...
I too used to have short paper templates for both heads and tails under the glass on my rewind bench. Made it easy to find the cut point if the changeover occurred in black. Also, one can almost always see a difference between the feature's black and the tail black if one has good enough work lighting.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-08-2008, 08:35 AM:
That's like the manager in "This is Spinal Tap"
quote:
Certainly in the topsy turvy world of rock and roll, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is quite often useful
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