Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Core-only film shipment

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Posted by Dan Chilton (Member # 2288) on 05-13-2008, 01:55 PM:

I just received a film shipment sans-reels, which is something I've never encountered. Stranger still, the cores don't have holes through them, so I can't use any of the spare shipping reels I have in the booth. Here's a pic. Have any of you come across something like this before? How did you build it up?

Also, I called the distributor, and they're completely clueless. In fact, I think this is their first theatrically distributed film. I also phoned the last theater that showed the print, and all they could tell me was that the projectionist who built it up and broke it down won't be in until Thursday, and that it took him a couple days to build it up properly. What a joke.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 05-13-2008, 02:02 PM:

Get a split reel....we get films on cores all the time... Its a cheaper way to send a film rather then heavy cans on reels.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 05-13-2008, 02:02 PM:

You would use a split-reel to build that. It's a two-piece reel that has a screw-together hub in the middle that fits into the core and your theatre supplies dealer almost surely sells them.

Posted by Dan Chilton (Member # 2288) on 05-13-2008, 02:13 PM:

Indeed they do. I've got one coming to me direct from Goldberg. Hopefully it will arrive here this week. Unfortunately, that won't be in time for me to build it up. I think if I'm incredibly careful, and go super slow, I can use our trailer reel to get the job done.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 05-13-2008, 02:17 PM:

As everyone is suggesting get a split reel or a film flange. We get many films on cores from labs around the world a year for special screenings. That distributor did not want to pay the extra money to have the lab mount the film on reels. That's all it amounts too.

Posted by Dan Chilton (Member # 2288) on 05-13-2008, 02:21 PM:

Should I be getting a 1000' or 2000' split reel?

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 05-13-2008, 02:24 PM:

Get a 2000 foot one, which would be like a regular size reel. The 1000 foot ones work but you will have alot over hanging.

Posted by Joop de Gruiter (Member # 84) on 05-13-2008, 02:25 PM:

All prints in Sweden are distributed in this way. I think most European countries if not most countries outside the USA use this method. A split-reel would be a good investment in the booth.

A short term solution would be to try and take out the cores and replace them with the type of cores with holes that you mention so you can attach the flanges.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 05-13-2008, 02:33 PM:

I wouldn't try popping the core out, If it's a tight core. It would make your job so much longer, doing that.

His booth might be better equipped to handle films shipped in on cores, than the standard (less equipped booth) of the US type theatre chains.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-13-2008, 02:37 PM:

If you're really careful, you can drill a hole in the core. Just make sure it is securely held and start with a small pilot hole. That's probably what I'd do if I didn't have a split reel handy...

--jhawk

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-13-2008, 03:52 PM:

Split reels are cheaper from your dealer.....we get a discount. Louis

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-13-2008, 04:49 PM:

I'm with John. I would pull out a drill and make holes so you can use your whatever plastic split reels you have.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 05-13-2008, 05:20 PM:

Looking at the picture, it almost looks like someone pulled out the 4" core that the film was wound onto, and put a 3" core in it's place. There is space between the core and the film, but I don't know if there is enough space to make up the difference between the 4" and 3" core.

If what I have said above is the case, and this print was on a platter, with the heads and tail cut, you may be able to remove the 3" core, then if you remove the tail leader, you may be able to put a 4" core into the center of the film, and mount it on a take-apart-reel. If there is a little space left, put a short piece of old film at the end of the reel, so that you don't scratch the end of the reel. Good luck.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 05-13-2008, 05:38 PM:

If you have a spare 2000' reel and trailer flange you should be able to put it the trailer flange and wind it onto your spare reel. Our Kelmar trailer flange also has a small screw removable screw that engages the slot in that core so you can wind it back onto the shipping cores, of course, the finished reel won't be as neatly wound for shipping back out, but it works.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-13-2008, 05:52 PM:

Why are there theatres that don't have split reels? Doesn't everyone get a print on cores from time to time? That seems to be the standard shipping configuration outside the US.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-13-2008, 05:57 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Doesn't everyone get a print on cores from time to time?

In the 12 years that I've been working in theatres, I have never received a print on just cores. The only time I have ever received anything on just cores is replacement reels and I have never had a problem with them not having holes for the plastic split reels.

Granted, my theatre specializes in first run wide releases. I don't think we have ever received a print that was not from Deluxe/ETS or Technicolor.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 05-13-2008, 06:02 PM:

As other people have just said this is a standard for prints outside the US.

I've been in the cinema business (on and off) for about 8 years- EVERY film i've build came like this.

UK cinemas have a split reel as standard.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-13-2008, 07:05 PM:

All Bollywood movies come on cores. They don't believe in reels. They also don't believe in winding their film with any tension at all, so it tries to all fall off the core when you attempt to remove the reel(s) from their individual cans. Another thing they don't believe in is a movie that is 2 hours or less or one without an intermission. However they do heavily endorse wimpy burlap boxes.

Get a 6000' split reel, not a 2000' one. It pays to be prepared.

Also, Dan, please upload your picture directly to Film-Tech. Do not link to outside pictures. Your link isn't even working!

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-13-2008, 08:02 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Your link isn't even working!

worked for me....

quote: Joe Redifer
All Bollywood movies come on cores.

Every bollywood I have received except maybe one in the past year were shiped on cores and in nasty boxes that fall apart.

I have only received maybe a few domestics like this.

Split reel is really to only way to go.

Mike

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 05-13-2008, 08:03 PM:

I get 25-30 prints a year on cores, after getting by using a variety of make-shift junk we bought two split reels. If the print is going to run only 2 or 3 times, run it from 2k reels and on the last run, take it up on split reels and drop it back into the cans--saves rewinding back to the cores and gives a tight wind.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-13-2008, 09:42 PM:

Dan - upload the pic to this web server or I will remove this thread. Any photos used in the discussion of a problem must be uploaded here to preserve the integrity of the archives for future reference.

Posted by Benjamin John Doman (Member # 4365) on 05-13-2008, 10:17 PM:

Indeed, all films in the UK are sent out on cores. We had the opposite problem nearly 20 odd years ago when the circuit booked some Billy Graham films that all turned up on US spools!

I have seen Bollywood films turn up with nothing but newspaper suffed in the centers. Oh what fun we had! [beer]

Ben

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-13-2008, 10:25 PM:

I consider any country who does not use reels to be an extremely poor third world country.

quote: Michael Moore
worked for me....

That's nice.

Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 05-14-2008, 02:52 AM:

I've got to point out that unless you can get a TIGHT wind (that is to say, unless you actually have a real coring adapter), don't bother at all. Please.

I've had a number of films pass through my hands in the past few months that were simply a nightmare to deal with because some joker thought he could core a film, and clearly didn't have a tite-wind.

For those looking, the best, in my opinion, are the Hollywood Film Co. rewinds. They have GOOD torque and after using it, you can punch your fist at a 6000' core without having it pop out on you.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-14-2008, 03:06 AM:

You don't need tight-winders. A proper wind can be accomplished in a number of ways.

Using a split reel on the rewind bench (assuming your clutch is properly set).

Taking up directly off of the projector onto a split reel (assuming you are a changeover theater running on shipping reels).

Breaking down from a GOOD platter directly onto a split reel, as in a Christie, SPECO, etc. Not shit platters like Strong that don't have backtension.

The loose winds you describe I can almost assure you came from booths equipped with shit platters.

Posted by Alan Plester (Member # 852) on 05-14-2008, 11:43 AM:

Im with Michael on this one. In 15 years, never had a film arrive any other way, apart from when the last theatre decided to break down and just throw the centres into the can, and left a hole in the middle no wider than the spigot spindle on the mut.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 05-14-2008, 01:22 PM:

Scott, that is indeed standard practice here in the UK.

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 05-17-2008, 12:22 AM:

I think it really just depends on what you've been exposed to in your fil handling career. I used to see a lot of oddball stuff at second-run and art houses. Now, when opening a new booth, I always request 2 split reels and a pair of flanges (one "innie" and one "outie" core grabbing spindles).

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 07-04-2010, 07:18 PM:

It has been 778 days since the last post.

Posted by Ottilie Young (Member # 4195) on 07-04-2010, 07:18 PM:

Hi:

I've searched a bit about tight/even rewind but couldn't really find explicitly detailed instructions on how to do this. We have a Kelmar 7900 rewind bench. We rewind generally at about 35/100 speed onto cores when we receive them, but they're still telescoping. One thing i thought is that we need to tighten the drag on the left spindle to increase the tension.

I do find that take-up onto a good shipping reel produces the best wind, but have always been told never to use split reels on the projectors. and only in a certain orientation on the rewind bench. My understanding is that the concern was about the split reel unscrewing. Seeing that Brad says it's okay to use a split reel as take-up gives me confidence that this would be okay to do.

But, on a rewind bench, if the split reel is on the left spindle it actually spins counter clock-wise (which I would think would cause it to unscrew if that in fact is a problem). That said, the split reel on the right spindle (i.e the same as the take-up) would be a clockwise turn.

So, I have a couple questions:

Would tightening the tension on the left spindle on the rewind bench help? How do you know when is too much tension? Or should I use the automatic arm?

Is it really safe to take-up cores using split reels? We have a Simplex XL but that really doesn't say anything about the feed/take-up arms.

Is it ever a bad idea to take-up onto shipping reels, if they're in good shape?

Do split reels indeed unscrew accidentally on a spindle? (other than when a human unscrews them)

If they do unscrew, why? We have 2 split reels, both have a longer post, but one has the female end and the other a male end on the longer post.

Do they unscrew b/c of the direction of spin (i.e. as I said above, if on the left spindle, rewinding under to over, the left spindle is turning counter clock wise. or do they unscrew b/c of whether the longer post in engaged on the rewind table.

Sorry for the long post but I'm trying to be as clear as possible.

Thanks for any help!

Ottilie Young
Equipment Chair
Doc Films
University of Chicago

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-04-2010, 07:24 PM:

Seeing as Dan is obviously not going to do as he was asked, here is his picture.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-04-2010, 08:00 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Dan, please upload your picture directly to Film-Tech. Do not link to outside pictures. Your link isn't even working!

Worked for me just now, you ass.

quote: Brad Miller
Dan - upload the pic to this web server or I will remove this thread.

He means it, Dan!

quote: Brad Miller
A proper wind can be accomplished in a number of ways.

...........

Breaking down from a GOOD platter directly onto a split reel, as in a Christie, SPECO, etc. Not shit platters like Strong that don't have backtension.

I use Strong platters and I get extremely tight winds, tight enough to use as a discus. They make a very solid sound when you knock on the film that is wound to the core. I don't have a clutch, don't hold the deck with a rag or anything and I get tight winds unless I am winding ridiculously slow. So long as the spring on the MUT has a bit of tension on it, the wind will be tight. Tight winds on the takeup deck coming from the projector, now that's another story entirely. I'm not sure how to accomplish this on the Strong without skipping rollers. I know it can be done because the prints wrapped very solid at Greenwood.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-05-2010, 12:44 AM:

Trick with winding films on cores, no matter what size of core you have, and using either a core winder disc, or a 2000ft split reel (preferred, since the split reel will lock the core in place compared to the core winder since the tension on the film coming from the 'free spindle' will actually pull the core off the winder at the beginning, unless you hold the core in when you begin the wind), is to hold the film lightly against the flange of either device while the film is winding on the core

I never use the automatic arm, but do the entire wind manually so I can have full control of the entire wind.

I have enough tension so the film winding on the core is being snug to tight on the core -about the same as the labs do when they wind the film on the cores prior to shipment.

Taking up on shipping reels was and is a common practice with changeover booths on the last night of showing with us "old school" projectionists.

If using a split reel, have the threaded part of the reel hub on the rewind shaft. That way, with the spindle rotating clockwise and soundtrack to the outside, the outer flange won't come unscrewed.

With this, no matter how much footage of film is winding on the core, you'll have a very smooth and tight wind on the core.

good luck-Monte

Posted by Manny Montes (Member # 5639) on 07-05-2010, 04:24 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
I use Strong platters and I get extremely tight winds, tight enough to use as a discus.

I know exactly what you mean, I get tight winds on my strong and I love it, though after playing with a christie for a bit I do like their platter a bit better. I just don't think strong is as crappy as everyone says it is.

As for core-only films, working at a domestic arthouse for a bit, i've only seen it once on a bollywood film, and I wasn't even working at the time. in the 3 years I've been at a mainstream first run theater, I've never seen it.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-05-2010, 08:09 AM:

Neumade made a core winder and i believe a uk company also made them
Split reels do come apart sometimes

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-05-2010, 01:06 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
I don't have a clutch, don't hold the deck with a rag or anything and I get tight winds unless I am winding ridiculously slow. So long as the spring on the MUT has a bit of tension on it, the wind will be tight

It's due to: those 7 rollers that the film has to pass through; the film path itself, the size of those rollers which, IMO are way too small to handle film (no VKF standards here..) and with that tension spring.

Plus, is Joe cheating by using the "Z" wind on those STRONGS?

-Monte

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 07-05-2010, 01:19 PM:

> We have a Kelmar 7900 rewind bench.

You can not get a "true" tight wind with a Kelmar rewind bench, although you can get close enough with a little practice and patience. A true "tight wind" is accomplished with a winder that can use a tight wind attachment. A split reel is not used, but rather the attachment that consists of a heavy weighted roller and guide arm/bracket that allows it to ride on top of the film as it is being wound. The weight of the roller creates the tight wind, not excessive back tension.

To get a good core wind with a Kelmar table, you will need a real split reel, not those cheap shipping reel flanges. Rewind normally onto the core/split reel, at a little under 50% speed, lightly holding the feed reel with your hands if the tension pads on the Kelmar table do not provide a consistent smooth even wind. There should not be a lot of back tension, just enough to lift the rewind roller up.

> have always been told never to use split reels on the projectors.

Bullshit. If your projectors takeup has enough speed to take up with the smaller diameter cores, then there is no reason not to use them on the projector. Some projectors do not turn the takeup fast enough to take up on 3" or under cores.

> and only in a certain orientation on the rewind bench.

One side of the split reel grabs the rewind shaft pin, and turns the core. The other side grabs the pin, but does not turn the core. If you put this side in, the split reel will come apart during winding.

> if the split reel is on the left spindle it actually spins counter clock-wise

See answer above. Does not matter which way it is spinning.

Would tightening the tension on the left spindle on the rewind bench help?

NO!, that will just cause cinch mark scratches on the film.

> How do you know when is too much tension?

Just enough tension to lift the automatic shutoff arm.

> should I use the automatic arm?

You do not have too, but unless it does not spin freely, there is no reason not too. Provides a more even tensioned wind when coring, since the back tension pads do not always provide an even back tension.

> Is it really safe to take-up cores using split reels?

Yes.

> We have a Simplex XL

Should work fine.

> Is it ever a bad idea to take-up onto shipping reels

Only if the shipping reel is bent or damaged.

> Do split reels indeed unscrew accidentally on a spindle?

Only when they are put on the rewind facing the wrong way.

Posted by Ottilie Young (Member # 4195) on 08-09-2010, 12:24 PM:

Hi:

Mitchell, thanks for your incredibly helpful, detailed explanation of how split reels work. Sorry it's taken so long to respond.

Just to be clear I understand what you're saying.

You said:

“One side of the split reel grabs the rewind shaft pin, and turns the core. The other side grabs the pin, but does not turn the core. If you put this side in, the split reel will come apart during winding.”

On only one flange of the split reel, there is a pin (not the “key” on the spindle post, but one an inch or so away on the flange itself that sticks out about ¼”) that engages the core in one of the 8 indented segments (between the outer perimeter of the core and the inner spindle hole). I’m assuming that flange of the split reel which has the pin that engages and turns the core should be inside, toward the rewind table/projector and the other flange should be out, toward the operator.

Thanks Again!

Ottilie Young
Equipment Chair
Doc Films
University of Chicago

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 08-10-2010, 08:43 AM:

> I’m assuming that flange of the split reel which has the pin that engages and turns the core should be inside, toward the rewind table/projector and the other flange should be out, toward the operator.

Yes.