This is topic Poorly maintained Simplex XL seems to have oil leaks everywhere. Where do I start? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 05-13-2008, 03:02 PM:
 
I have a Simplex XL at our drive-in which has been rather poorly maintained over the years (this is only my third season working with it). Last night I fixed a couple problem such as the film gate closing too tight (same adjustment screw as I mentioned with the 1050s) and the focus nob having some slop.

But the problem I really want to fix is the oil leaks. Over the years the projector has leaked so much oil that it's difficult to tell what's a leak and what is just oil from other leaks. I went through and tightened all the hex screws I could get to. And I wiped off the old oil from many parts of the projector. Assuming the projector is still leaking, what should I look for and/or adjust.

And how the hell do I add oil to this thing. If I add it through the oil gage, it takes forever to get the right amount. The only other option I could find was pulling back the gear cover and pouring it directly into the sump. For what it's worth, my projector has the oil indicator mounted on the back side near the framing nob rather than on the front under the lens.

Also, I think I have a more current version of the manual if FT is interested.
 
Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 05-13-2008, 03:09 PM:
 
That back gear cover is my first suspect, and where I've had the most leaks occur. The gasket may need to be replaced.
Next is the oil drain petcock, which resembles that of a car radiator's drain petcock. This may need replacing or sealing around the base of the petcock with silicone caulk. (You want to be able to drain the oil for oil changes).
This is where I would start.
The other fellows will add to this list...
 
Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-13-2008, 03:11 PM:
 
Be prepared to change all of the seals, and bushings.
 
Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 05-13-2008, 05:57 PM:
 
Justin,

What angle is your projector? Does it tilt up toward the screen? If that is the case, then the oil glass should be at the rear of the mechanism nearest the lamp house. If the machine is level or pointed slightly downward to the screen, then the front sight glass position is indicated.

Once oil has managed to get past a seal or gasket it will continue to leak regardless of how much you tighten the covers.

Mark will have some better information on the sealing of Simplex XLs. They are capable of putting out a fine picture but the lubricant seepage can be a nuisance.

KEN
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-13-2008, 08:02 PM:
 
Ken made a very good point mentioning tilt angle. Be sure that you don't put too much oil in the projector for your given tilt angle. Over-filling it will just cause the oil to seep past the main drive shaft and then run all over the place. I would reccomend the following because you said its been poorly maintained over the years.

1. Tear the entire machine down and replace any worn parts and install all new gaskets. Note that its going to cost you well over a grand to do this properly and your dealer may just want to do it in place or he may want to do it in his shop and provide you with a loaner head in the mean time. At CLACO we provide loaner heads at no charge when we have to haul em in for rebuild. Also don't forget the sound reproducer... its probably been just as neglected as the projector.

2. Install the seal kit that Strong makes for the XL. This also allows an increase in oil level over the several ounces an XL will hold until it simply runs out past the main drive shaft. If you install the seal kit be sure to maintin the oil level at least half way up the sael... this will lubricate the seal so it doesn't fail prematurely. XL's always should have had more oil in them from the beginning!! At the same time also install the new rear gear cover. The new gear cover is much beefier than the old one and also has a much better seal.

If you do the above it should resolve much of your leak situation but it won't stop the leaks 100%. The old XL's have very porus alumnium main castings mainly because of the choosen alloy and because they are not heat treated. POwder coating the main casting sometimes helps with the leaks.

New Simplex's utilize heat treated main castings, have little porosity and they are also much heavier then the old ones. Why on earth folks prefer the old black ones is beyond me, I always thought they were pretty crappy by today's standards. I'd much rather have a current production PR1014 with the stiffer/beefier main frame than any old black XL variant.

Good luck with your repairs!!

Mark
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-13-2008, 08:53 PM:
 
Strong must have done ONE thing right! Louis
 
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-13-2008, 11:06 PM:
 
There are a bunch of places it can leak through... a good cleaning with simple green or some other degreaser will let you see where the oil is actually coming from.
Once the operating side is clean, look for oil running down from behind the upper and lower sprocket mounting subassemblies. These have paper gaskets on old units and rubber "donut" seals on newer ones. If oil is coming from the upper sprocket shaft - dripping off the sprocket (and oiling the film... yuck) then probably the "wick" in the oiling hole in back is missing - this wick reduces the amount of oil getting into the housing so it doesn't fill up and seep through the bushings. If you have problems with the seals/gaskets or this wick thing, be careful as the driving gear mesh for those sprocket shafts is set by positioning the housings when installing them.
If you have oil coming out of the intermittent shaft bushing that's not good. Later models, after Simplex discovered O-rings around 1990, have a tiny one sealing the shaft; earlier production has a spiral groove in the shaft that leads oil back into the intermittent case. You probably shouldn't go inside the intermittent trying to fix a leak there.
A leak from around the intermittent case where it sits in the framing unit leads back to the O-ring revelation. Previous XLs have a system of gutters and drain holes around the intermittent that try to send oil back to the gear side - with reasonable success. Later ones use an O-rings around the intermittent case and another around the framing unit the intermittent fits into. On the old ones goop and gunk block the drain holes and just pulling the intermittent and cleaning them out usually helps a lot. The new ones will need new O-rings if they leak... the drain holes are no longer there. On the whole intermittent/framing collar assemblage just doing a thorough cleaning (the intermittent has to come out for this) can work wonders. Oil seems to follow a wet trail, clean away the trail and it stops.
Out back, Louis and Mark have covered the bases pretty well. The back covers have a tendency to get warped - somebody tries to stop an oil leak by taking the big pliers out and cranking the 3 clamp nuts down. Still leaking? Tighten some more! You may be able to gently bend it back into shape. Be really careful if you have an actual glass window... newer ones are plastic and don't shatter. You shouldn't need a lot of force to seal the back cover! The secret is to have the cover gasket and the sealing surface on the main casting (regardless of type) absolutely clean and oil-free before installing it (note that this is nearly impossible) then carefully tightening the nuts to get slight compression of the seal all the way around.
The drive shaft is probably not sealed at all and you have to keep the oil level such that it's below the hole. There's a paper gasket under the bearing cap that will seep oil if bad, but major leaks here are usually because of misunderstanding the sight glass: the proper sight glass level depends on the projector angle and there should be a small metal sliding ring on the glass tube that is to be set - depending on the tilt angle - to show your full level. The sight glass mounts in front for down tilts, at the rear for up tilts.
The sight glass mounts and hole covers have paper gaskets too.
For oil filling, I assume you don't have the oil filler in the rear cover... Strong also tried an odd approach with a metal sleeve around the shutter timing adjustment knob - this pulls up to cover said knob and is then a filler funnel (no kidding) so if you have this sleeve that pulls up there's your filler. Otherwise use the sight glass filler. You can improve that by improving the hole where it flows into the casting... sight glass, gasket, and casing each have holes the oil has to get through and they rarely line up properly - plus the hole into the casting is often not all the way through leaving a tiny orifice into the oil sump. If you have a pumping oil can that fits tightly into the filler you can force oil through pretty fast too.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-14-2008, 06:18 PM:
 
Well covered! I cannot tell you how many times, "there was just too much oil!" Sometimes also, the oil sight was moved to the front or rear, but the INTERNAL pump changes were not made!! Louis
 
Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-14-2008, 06:45 PM:
 
quote: Justin Hamaker
But the problem I really want to fix is the oil leaks.
I had a super simplex about a year, ago with many oil leaks.
my solution was to put it in the trash and get a Century. however i did rebuild the SH-1000 and it runs like new... i know I know you all hate the SH-1000 but I love it.

Mike
 
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-14-2008, 07:42 PM:
 
The SH and RCA soundheads are excellent... the only problem being the lay-on roller. The price of a new gearbox soundhead would be several times what anyone sane would pay, though.
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-14-2008, 08:13 PM:
 
Thing I don't like is with the INT assembly: no gasket around that assembly-just metal to metal contact when it sits in the framing carriage.Even though it does have the drainholes in the framing carriage to prevent leakage to come inside the operating side, but it still sweats around this assembly circumference and puddles where it wants to.

the Mil2K machines finally took care of this with that very small "O" ring gasket around the assembly.

Oh, then you got the main drive seal kits to chek into. Seen many-a-sprocket grooved by the seal to get a good leak there.

Yep, good ol' potmetal rear doors. Changed a few out to quit the "runny noses" that eventually likes to occur.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-14-2008, 08:24 PM:
 
To be fair; to like a Simplex, you must like OIL! Louis
 
Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-14-2008, 10:16 PM:
 
You know the lay-on roller is a problem, and I have to say I wish it was designed a little better, but I have to say, if the roller is cleaned all the time, I mean every day, and night, then the problems are minimized. And some here will still say it damages the film, and while it may I can defend my SH. Because the damage it may have on film is nothing compared to some of the film we get shipped to us! I have seen prints that look like they were used to cover the booth floor for a few days.
 
Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 05-16-2008, 03:21 PM:
 
Provided your image is stable and the machine is running relatively smooth and quiet, getting the machine up to snuff should not be to terribly difficult. Lets break this down so that it doesn't seem so overwhelming.

Back door: As mentioned previously there is the newer style back door that can be purchased. Or you could just reseal yours. I've resealed numerous old style back doors with good success. Just keep in mind that there are about 4 different variations on the simplex back door. If you have a black XL with matching black door, then you likely have a round tube gasket for the outer seal and a flat black gasket for the window seal. Get the gaskets for the door from Wolk, the outer black gasket that wolk sells is far better than the one you will get from Strong. Also, you may notice that the 3 points on the door where the thumbscrews bolt up have over time become bent forward, thus causing the door to not seal very well. You can flatten them back out with a rubber mallet.

Main Drive: Just get the seal kit and be done with it. This is a major oil leak point without the kit. You will also get new o-rings for the framing shaft with the kit, it's possible you are leaking here as well.

Oil gauge: To reseal the oil gauge you will need the black neoprene gasket, fiber washer and main frame gasket. may as well get a spare sight glass to go along with it, because they do break rather easily.

Feed sprocket assy's usually will not leak unless someone has removed them, then replaced without a new seal. Often on the old XL's the gaskets have more or less glued themselves in place. You are more likely to be leaking oil out the sprocket shaft.

Intermittent: could be leaking oil out the star shaft, case gasket or out of the framing cam area. This one can be a little tricky to figure out, so do all the other stuff first and keep an eye on this area.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-16-2008, 03:51 PM:
 
This is the only aspect of the seal kit that Wrong did wrong! The problem is that with the old styler framing shafts there is alot more spring tension from that big spring that sits on the operators(?) side of the shaft. On later Minnellieum type machines that spring tension is alot less. If you use the O-rings on the older machines they tend to squish out of place and then a real bad leak occurs, especially if the projector is tilted uphill. I always stick with the flat rubber washers on the old machines but on the later Minnellieums I use the O-rings. No in ANY application there should be a groove for any give o-ring. If you check in Machinery's Hand book there is a formula they have to calculate the percentage of depth for a proper o-ring groove... actually you machine down a percentage of the uncompressed height of the o-ring. Then a washer or sealing surface goes over that and the o-ring can't squish out/or in. Learn't this( the hard way) from building my own underwater camera housings back in the 70's. Just another thing Wrong did wrong. I should mention that in a booth with a professional operator this is a non-issue since he/she will never touch the framing shaft... ever [evil] .

P.S. Michael... I hope this o-ring groove discussion didn't bore you [Wink] !
Mark
 
Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 05-16-2008, 04:25 PM:
 
good point Mark! I sorta forgot that on the old XL's I don't even bother with the O-ring, on the front side you have that big fat steel washer with a big fat neoprene washer to go along with it, it's a wolk only part IIRC.
 
Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-17-2008, 09:55 PM:
 
p.s.
no not at all
 
Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 03-14-2009, 12:29 AM:
 
I have a Simplex 1050 with an oil leak from the framing shaft on the gear box side. From the parts manual it appears as if I should replace the 51-48024 O-Ring, Oil Seal, but it sounds like Mark was saying I should use a flat washer instead of an O Ring. I think these machines are 1995 vintage. Also, are there more gaskets, seals, or parts which should be replaced on the framing shaft to kill an oil leak?
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-14-2009, 02:36 AM:
 
quote: Eric Robinson
to kill an oil leak?
Trade it in for a Christie P35 is the quickest way... [Big Grin]

J/K! What I've done to remedy an oil leak is to pull the intermittent assembly out and completely dry every surface where metal meets metal of oil using rubbing alcohol on a rag (get the rubber gloves on when you do this-alcohol will dry out your skin real bad..too bad that we can't use "carbon tet" - Carbon tetrachloride - for that stuff dissolved oil quite nicely, but being so toxic was another thing...)...for we old mechanics know that 'oil will always follow oil' when oil begins to leak out of where it wants to.

I used to have a very leaky PR-1050, but doing this drying trick, slowed that leakage down considerably.

Also, if you have a real main drive seal leaking, then it's time for a new seal kit since that oil seal will get harden up with age and will cut a groove in the drive sprocket rim.

-Monte
 
Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 03-14-2009, 10:55 AM:
 
quote: Monte L Fullmer
Trade it in for a Christie P35 is the quickest way
When have I heard this before? [Roll Eyes]

I'll check out the seal kit, do you know the part #?
 
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-15-2009, 12:02 AM:
 
quote:
I'll check out the seal kit, do you know the part #?


Square tooth driven pulley kit >> 52-60246

Round tooth driven pulley kit >> 52-60251

Now, these numbers are for the recent "5-Star" soundheads made by STRONG. If you, or anybody encounter "5-Stars" made by NSS, there is a thrust washer on the input shaft that must be removed before any of these kits can be used. I worked on a NSS "5-star" head and found out the hard way on that thrust washer...couldn't get that sprocket to align up correctly til I found that washer..and it had to go.

hope this gets you going to snuff up some of those leaks. Before you do these kits, drain the case completely and dry up any oil that is around the main drive shaft before putting on these kits.

Also, take some RTV sealant on the threads of the six screws before putting them in the mainframe. Also, do the rotation torque sequence of those six screws by: first getting them all down to a light snug, then tighten them down across from one another.

(sorry on the light rub about Christies .. had to give you a raz.. [Razz] )

good luck - Monte
 
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 06-21-2010, 11:15 AM:
 

It has been 463 days since the last post.


 
Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 06-21-2010, 11:15 AM:
 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Install the seal kit that Strong makes for the XL
Is there some part number for this kit?
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-21-2010, 11:37 AM:
 
See posting above.

It is my oopinion that the seal kit is not wanted or needed. If it helps, it just indicated that the instruction manual is not followed as to how much oil is on board.

As to many XL leaks, there must be at least 29 seals on an XL. It is just about true that an overhaul is no more trouble than replacing all of those seals. Louis
 
Posted by Michael Voiland (Member # 5386) on 06-22-2010, 10:51 PM:
 
Its better in every way shape or form then the pro 35
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-23-2010, 06:59 PM:
 
quote: Louis Bornwasser
It is my oopinion that the seal kit is not wanted or needed. If it helps, it just indicated that the instruction manual is not followed as to how much oil is on board.

You definatley seem to need the seal kit in a theater that is managed by a female. How many females actually check the oil in their car engine let alonen the projector that generates their wages? They are absolutely necessary in these locations so there is still oil in the machine when the service tech is in for his quarterly visit!

Also, Old black wrinkle X-Ls do not have heat treated main castings. So they are very porus and the oil leaks right through the botto of the casting. They started heat treating them when General Precision took the Simplex over. This is the sole reaon why I will never buy or install a black wrinkle version.

Mark
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-24-2010, 05:42 AM:
 
Not only are the seal kits (for main drive) expensive and unnecessary, they also form a primitive oil pump which pumps oil overboard. You are slightly worse off afterward. What a waste! Louis
 
Posted by Mike Croaro (Member # 3123) on 06-24-2010, 06:30 PM:
 
Louis; Folks:

I've used the Christie P35 projector and found it to be an excellent machinje. Never had any problems with it either.

Mike
 
Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 06-25-2010, 04:44 AM:
 
Okay, don't want to White Knight here or anything but that was a bit sexist Mark, don't you say? I'm sure if you think about it you could come up with plenty of theatres managed by men that have poorly maintained projectors.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-25-2010, 06:25 AM:
 
Actually the women I have in the booth are unusually good with the small items: cleanliness, oiling, etc. I think they live in fear of mechanical failure. Usually they THINK they have no knowledge of things mechanical. Rarely when things do fail, they ask questions and are just fine about resolving the problem thmselves. Louis
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 06-25-2010, 07:47 AM:
 
quote: Louis Bornwasser
the women I have in the booth are unusually good with the small items
hehe...you set yourself up for that one. [Razz]
 
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 06-25-2010, 12:57 PM:
 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Also, Old black wrinkle X-Ls do not have heat treated main castings. So they are very porus and the oil leaks right through the botto of the casting. They started heat treating them when General Precision took the Simplex over. This is the sole reaon why I will never buy or install a black wrinkle version.

Mark
Mark, I get so tired of hearing you whine about the old XL's [Big Grin]

I have one of the very first machines and it DOES NOT LEAK at all. Hell, the SH-1000 loses more oil than the projector head does.

I think the problem you're talking about may be the first generation of NSS machines or even the horrible Singer versions.

And my experience with the GPL's you love so much is the exact opposite, they don't leak but are horrible machines, I had a drive-in with 5 of them and the heat of the lamp would distort the castings and the machines would lose focus, stability and get noisier as they heated up. When we replaced them with black XL's (can't recall the vintage) the problems went away.

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Not only are the seal kits (for main drive) expensive and unnecessary, they also form a primitive oil pump which pumps oil overboard. You are slightly worse off afterward. What a waste! Louis
Louis, are you kidding? The seal kits DO NOT result in oil "pumping overboard" and are not a waste. If you're getting increased oil leakage with a seal kit it means you did not seal the rear cover properly.

I can get a leak-proof seal with even the old covers with the tubing seals but one has to make sure that EVERY LAST TRACE of oil is cleaned off of the seal and the mating surface on the casting. Otherwise it will leak a lot of oil as it simply flows under the seal.

The seal kits are outrageously priced from Wrong though, especially the older gear-drive kit (which should be cheaper as the costs of manufacturing has already been amortized out.) but what's a guy to do?
 
Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-26-2010, 07:55 AM:
 
I think Louis is saying the seal kit encourages overfilling and then the lower gears of the Simplex churn the oil around.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-26-2010, 02:00 PM:
 
quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
I think the problem you're talking about may be the first generation of NSS machines or even the horrible Singer versions.
Sorry Tony it's the original Black Wrinkle machines. My comment was only regarding the casting itself which is a piece of crap! Much of the internal parts on those machines were the best, especially the stars and cams. How do I know they are crap? I have cut the fronts off close to a hundred X-L's to install lens turrets on them over the years. I also have a friend who is a metallurgist and custom knife maker who does all his own hardening and metal processing. He took one look at some of the cut out pieces from the black machines and pronounced it crap aluminum. Not only are those castings not tempered to any degree but the quality of the aluminum itself is poor. They did not start tempering castings until the machines went blue hammertone. They way the metal machines on the black castings is that it comes off like sand... while on any other casting it actually machines properly and produces the normal "chips" of metal. Now if you want to argue with a degreed metallurgist you're welcome to... I'll send you his phone number or you can come on my Facebook page and do it. I am only stating what is fact.

P.S., Some of the fronts of those black machines are only 1/16" thick! Later castings are about 1/4" consistently. Strong's castings are even better and some of the finest quality castings I've ever worked with. It is very likely they are spun cast.

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Actually the women I have in the booth are unusually good with the small items: cleanliness, oiling, etc.
I wish I had more women on the booths that could deal with the bigger things! unfortunately out of all the locations I service... about 140 there are just three female projectionists. One real good lookin one too! So in my case the seal kits are uber important to the machine actually still having any oil in it by my next service visit.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-27-2010, 08:12 AM:
 
I NEVER oil in a theatre unless I swap an intermittent. That is properly the job of the on-site staff. I do not want the oiling responsibility.

After an intermittent repair (or 2 or 3) management will mandate oiling. Trust me, no other "system" works. Louis
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-29-2010, 09:05 AM:
 
Louis.... Mandated or not first management has to find a way to keep a trained booth monger for just 6.50 an hour! Then worry about if he can oil or not... Fortunately most older machines leak badly enough that it is merely necessary just to keep them topped off.
 
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-29-2010, 09:07 PM:
 
Oh, well! Sure sells a lot of intermittent overhauls. Louis
 
Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 06-29-2010, 10:08 PM:
 
Easy fixed....

Put in Centurys. [Big Grin] [thumbsup] [beer]
 




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