This is topic Dolby EX...why did we bother? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-19-2008, 05:47 PM:
 
Just received my DTS discs for Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and it's not ES so would assume it's also not Dolby EX.

If there were ever a couple of movies that would have it if it still had even a faint pulse they would have been Iron Man and Indy I would have thought.

What a waste of money...now, who was it that said we needed it and it was the way of the future for sound? Oh yes, George Lucas, executive producer of Indy 4.

Good on you George.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-19-2008, 06:22 PM:
 
I completely agree with you.

We have three screens with EX. I do not remember the last time we showed something using it!

Marco
 

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Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 05-19-2008, 06:31 PM:
 
In a couple of years we will be saying the same thing about Digital 3-D.

Like any gimmick it is only lasts as long as there is product to support it.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-19-2008, 08:06 PM:
 
The only film that could have used EX to full advantage is Apocalypse Now; the best ever stereo surround film.....not even mixed for Digital. I know that sound mix is "rushed" due to release patterns now; such was not the case back then. Too bad for EX, but it's over, I fear. Louis
 

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Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 05-19-2008, 08:46 PM:
 
I have a feeling you will probably see it used more now in home theatre enviroments rather than the cinema.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-19-2008, 08:50 PM:
 
I think we've installed 6 EX systems in the last two years but this was at the customers request....

Mark
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-19-2008, 09:13 PM:
 
? dumb question: Isn't "EX" a Dolby thingey instead of being a DTS thingey?
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-19-2008, 09:23 PM:
 
DTS makes (made?) a box that does essentially the same thing as the SA-10, but called their version "ES" instead of "EX."

Part of the problem here is marketing: if you have an SA-10, but have DTS or SDDS instead of SRD, how do you advertise EX capability? "Dolby Digital Surround EX" doesn't fit, since you don't have Dolby Digital.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-19-2008, 09:35 PM:
 
Run it in EX/ES anyway.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-19-2008, 10:48 PM:
 
It was really Gary Rydstrom that pushed the EX thing. Most of our recent "EX" installation were due to the fact that they wanted/needed the AES audio input and/or AC3 decoding. EX came along for the ride.

The Current CP650 firmware will "auto EX" so one need not keep track of what films use it.

About all I know that seemingly use it on all films are M. Night's films.

Dolby doesn't seem to maintain a list of EX films anymore on their web site...if they do, I'd be curious to know where.

Steve
 

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Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 05-19-2008, 11:36 PM:
 
Wait now, Speed Racer was in EX (at least the print preview of Star Wars on the front of it is.) The revenue from that film alone was worth putting in the EX card.*

*note: sarcasm
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 05-20-2008, 02:47 AM:
 

quote: Jonathan M. Crist

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In a couple of years we will be saying the same thing about Digital 3-D.

Like any gimmick it is only lasts as long as there is product to support it.

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35mm film was a gimmick once, as was sound; there is still product to support those. A few gimmicks catch on and become permanent, most do not.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-20-2008, 02:53 AM:
 
Except movies can't really survive without a picture or sound, so it's not really a fair comparison.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-20-2008, 04:09 AM:
 
Any day that color gimmick is bound to get old.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-20-2008, 04:15 AM:
 
SpeedRacer in EX?

We constantly check DTS disks for ES logo or 5 numbers lenght serials (it's not the first time that EX movie does not have the EX tag on the SRD track Steve - AND no indications on the reels. Seems that labs have fun with us!) but I missed speedracer. I'll double check.
 

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Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 05-20-2008, 12:43 PM:
 
I can verify that Speed Racer is not in DD-EX or DTS-ES. As for the Star Wars: Clone Wars trailer, the Trailer DTS Serial Number is 6265, so it isn't in DTS-ES. I didn't check the display on the CP650 when the SW trailer was running, so I couldn't say for certain if it was or was not in DD-EX.

Now just because the DTS isn't in ES doesn't mean that the Dolby Digital isn't EX. While most EX prints have an ES soundtrack too (Any of the Pixar Films, or "Hitman" from last year), we've had a couple of titles come through with DD-EX tracks that had only standard DTS tracks ("Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day" being the most recent).
 

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Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 05-20-2008, 12:56 PM:
 
I think that it didn't take off because it isn't that noticeable to a customer (especially in a theater that had a well designed surround array before).

I'm surprised that they don't do more mixes in EX simply because it is backwards compatible. It's not like SDDS-8 channel where a separate 5.1 channel mix had to be created.

I think the one of the biggest pieces of stupidity is that the DCI specs were not designed for a discrete "EX" channel with mixdown capability. To do discrete EX with digital cinema there would have to be two mixes created (one with rear and one without). Then you'd have to utilize 3 of the unassigned tracks for discrete LS, BS, RS and ignore the normal LSt and RSt which would be compatible with matrix EX decoding.
 

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Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 05-20-2008, 01:46 PM:
 
I've NEVER seen a theater advertise that they have EX- I worked at a theater that got it in 2 auditoriums when Phantom Menace came out, but it wasn't advertised or promoted at all, except a few times when I did the phone recording I mentioned it there. I couldn't tell you if any other theaters in the area have it or not.

It doesn't make much difference in small theaters anyways, it might be more effective in large ones where you don't have to sit near the back to see the screen at a decent angle. I don't know how people set it up at home, my living room is small and has the couch right against the wall. I have the left and right surround speakers mounted on the wall on either side of the couch facing inward- I don't know where I'd put the extra speakers if I added an EX system, but I can usually tell when movies are mixed for EX.
 

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Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 05-20-2008, 06:36 PM:
 
I remember HAPPY FEET having an EX printed on the soundtrack format listing.

Only have one Dolby EX house, and notice that alot of trailers will wake up the EX modules.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-20-2008, 06:54 PM:
 
Blaine

If the soundtrack is made with Back surround, the soundtrack will be EX/ES compatible no matter if you use Dolby or DTS equipment.

DTS uses 5 digit serial number to identify its ES prints (so DTS-ES recognize it). Since serial numbers are usually the same around the world I can identify 99% if the print is EX/ES by its DTS disks.

Dolby put a flag in the print instead, that force the 650 to EX. In my country I saw so many times EX movie without the EX flag or EX movie with EX flag only in some reels (the processor wil turn to normal DD for that reel).

I always check DTS disks. If there are 5 digits (the first zero is not a digit) it's ES/EX.

SpeedRacer has 4 digit serial.

Marco
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-20-2008, 07:30 PM:
 

quote: Blaine Young

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"Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day" being the most recent).

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Yeah, Miss Pettigrew really needed EX, not like that talk-fest 'Iron Man'.
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 05-20-2008, 08:10 PM:
 

quote: John Wilson

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Yeah, Miss Pettigrew really needed EX, not like that talk-fest 'Iron Man'.

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Oh good. we open with it Friday. I'm sure the little old broads will just be all a chatter about the EX
 

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Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 05-20-2008, 08:54 PM:
 
so that you can run "Edge of Heaven" as the director intended
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-20-2008, 08:56 PM:
 
Another one that really needed it.
 

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Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-21-2008, 01:13 AM:
 
The whole "EX" thing is one area where home theater definitely trumped the audio tracks being played in commercial movie theaters.

More movies have been released on DVD with Dolby Surround EX 5.1 tracks than have been released in commercial theaters. Some were mixed for straight 5.1 in theatrical release and then remixed for EX for the DVD release. Lots of catalog movies have been remixed for EX. DTS had its Discrete 6.1 channel ES format playing exclusively in home theater.

I share the opinion of others that the commercial movie theater audio mix is now functioning as a first draft -put together in a rush for the theatrical release before being refined further into a better quality track for home theater. That's pretty unfortunate.

Despite the release of the DTS-XD10 processor years ago, all that extra capability has gone largely unused. Where's the 8 channel or 10 channel DTS movies? If I'm not mistaken, digital cinema also has the upward capability of playing 8 or more channels of high quality digital audio. AFAIK, digital cinema files are being delivered with no more than 5.1 channels of audio.

Meanwhile, the Blu-ray format is now delivering discrete 7.1 channel audio in Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD and LPCM formats. And it has four discrete surround channels. It can also support the previous 6.1 and EX 5.1 formats -although most high definition fans are demanding lossless or uncompressed audio.

Basically, very few people give a shit about Dolby EX in movie theaters anymore. It was never properly marketed and advertised to the public. With digital cinema, there is no more audio branding taking place. It's LPCM 5.1. But even that isn't advertised despite it being an improvement over the three previous lossy compressed digital audio formats.

 

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Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 05-21-2008, 03:00 PM:
 
Back in late 99, the company I work for opened a 16plex. House #1 (the smallest house together with house #14) was designated as the "art-house" of the complex.
At that time they had us install SA-10 in all those auditoriums... including the art-house!!!
Even though then, EX was the latest , we knew back then that putting one in house #1 was a bit extreme. In retrospective we were right.
 

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Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 05-21-2008, 04:30 PM:
 
A person (in a position to know) told me that EX was just a marketing ploy to squeeze a few more dollars out of the analog 2:4 decoders. But, that would be OK if it was actually used.
 

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Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 05-23-2008, 03:25 PM:
 
According to the IMDb, the following currently playing, coming soon, and recently played movies have EX/ES tracks:

The Happening
The Strangers
Doomsday
The Water Horse
Ratatouille
The Mutant Chronicles
Hitman

I did some poking around for Blu-ray specs of recent movies to see if any were being produced with more channels than their theatrical release:

Rambo (PCM 7.1 and Dolby Digital EX)
The Eye (PCM 7.1 and Dolby Digital EX)
Semi-Pro (DTS HD MA 7.1 and Dolby Digital EX)
Witless Protection (DTS HD MA 7.1 and Dolby Digital EX)
The Golden Compass (DTS HD MA 7.1)

Strangely, The Water Horse came out on Blu-ray in 5.1 so maybe it's just not marked correctly, the IMDb is wrong, or Sony's mastering house got lazy. Both Dolby and DTS have disowned their "Movies released in..." lists, so there's no way to know without further digging, which I'll leave to the interested observer.

While The BigScreen Cinema Guide has the ability to display all the various digital sound formats, we're lucky if most theaters even indicate digital sound at all, much less make a distinction between them. I don't think they could be bothered to actually indicate EX/ES even if they had a movie with it.

Maybe that's just me being pessimistic, but the amount of apathy over the formats displayed by theaters makes a lack of concern by the studios completely understandable. Home theater enthusiasts, on the other hand, eat this stuff up. Chasing the advanced technologies like a hungry dog after a newly found rabbit, they'll often gladly upgrade their equipment in the hopes of squeezing the last drop of quality between DTS and DTS HD MA. They demand lossless soundtracks from the studios, and disc reviews always mention the lack thereof.

With so little concern in/by movie theaters, is it any surprise that home theaters have the better mixes? Certainly, the extra time between theatrical and home video release allows for more attention to be paid to such things, I don't think the studios would go through the effort if the paying public wasn't demanding it.

To bring this out of the Afterlife realm and back in the Film Handler's realm, how many theaters will show The Strangers and The Happening in EX/ES and publicize it as such?

If you do, and if The BigScreen Cinema Guide lists your showtimes, I will personally make sure that the proper designations are placed on your showtimes (assuming you provide the proper indications when you submit your times, of course).
 

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-23-2008, 09:12 PM:
 
Not sure about the others, but Waterhorse was definitely EX, as were Ratatouille and Hitman.
 

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Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 05-23-2008, 10:09 PM:
 
Doomsday was EX/ES. I expect "The Happening" to be as well (seems M. Night Shyamalan likes EX/ES - All his films beginning with "Unbreakable" have been encoded as such).

All of Pixar films are EX/ES encoded, beginning with "Finding Nimo".
 

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Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 05-23-2008, 10:24 PM:
 
I think that EX or ES is noticeable in a theater. Smart has a line of decoders that for the extra channels that seem to work well on the rear channel and even where it was set up in the sound tracks to imitate a rear channel or simulate it. I have been in several theaters that were equipped with those Smart units and the rear channel coming from behind you was very evident! I haven't been any that uses the over head yet!
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-24-2008, 04:47 AM:
 
I my memory serves, last Shyamalan movie (lady in the water) had barely surrounds!
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-25-2008, 10:44 AM:
 
We just got the Smart Circle Surround unit and I must say, this unit extracts out-of-phase information even tho it's the tracks are not specifically encoded as EX, much like playing two channel sources thru those old quadraphonic decoders would extract ambience audio. The Smart unit allows you to engage the decoding or not. It's not automatic, so you can choose to use it or not. Our experience is that it enhances the surround experience even on nonEX encoded prints.

I suppose it is possible to encounter surround tracks were using the decoder will cause weird anomolies, but for those, when they do occur, the decoder can simply be switched off, but other than that eventuality, just leaving it on all the time seems to be an enhancement that works well. It makes you feel that you are immersed in the surround audio -- it REALLY surrounds you.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-25-2008, 01:42 PM:
 
EX works with in-phase audio material, not out-of-phase (there were rumors I heard long ago of an EX expansion which would place the out-of-phase surround information in an overhead channel). It simply Pro-Logic's the surrounds. Super-simple technology that should cost no more than $100 max for that function. Material does not need to be specifically encoded. There is nothing magical about the encoding. It's all in the mixing which is super easy to do. Many of my home movies are in surround EX. If it is in-phase, it goes to the back surround. You will get no more anomalies than you do watching stereo material on a Pro-Logic system.
 

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Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 05-25-2008, 03:14 PM:
 
Overhead channel information from Arizona Republic via RottenTomatoes

quote:

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'Soldiers' returns with state-of-art sound system

By Bill Muller
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 17, 2002

A state-of-the-art theatrical sound system makes its national debut in Tempe this week, with the re-release of the Mel Gibson Vietnam war saga We Were Soldiers.

Sonic Whole Overhead Sound was designed at the urging of We Were Soldiers director Randall Wallace, who wanted audiences to experience the full impact of his film's sweeping battle scenes.

"When the jets scream over . . . audibly it's exactly what happened," says Wallace, who worked with Paramount Pictures, sound designer Lon Bender and Dolby Laboratories to create the effect.

"The sound in this story surrounded these soldiers, and I wanted the experience of the film to be subjective," he says.

For the special engagement, which begins Friday at the Harkins Centerpoint 11, a theater will be outfitted with four speakers on the ceiling, integrated into the existing Dolby EX surround-sound system.

Wallace predicts that in 10 years, "every significant theater in the country will have this kind of presentation."

The film offered a great opportunity to showcase overhead sound, says David Gray, vice president of Hollywood film production for Dolby, which won't hesitate to look for future applications.

"We Were Soldiers was fabulous," Gray says, "because of all the helicopters and the mortar shells and the sort of huge battle landscapes where you have lots of sounds and lots of depth and lots of dimension."

The movie initially opened in March. The reviews were so good and the audience reaction so strong, that Paramount decided to re-release the film closer to Oscar time. That gave Wallace the opportunity to push for the new sound system.

Gray says the technique allows the sound mixers to reproduce effects that were never possible before, such as the whirling rotor blades of a helicopter directly overhead.

"The whole thing of feeling engulfed improves," he says. "Because now you have the third plane."

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