Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Audio CAP on Indy

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-22-2008, 12:59 PM:

Over in his FHMR review, Brad notes the presence of Audio CAP codes on Indy:

That looks really bad! It sounds like we in the US are doomed to deal with that Europe has been suffering with for some time. It looks very much like the coding Marco Giustini posted photos of from Technicolor's Rome lab in March (in New Anti-Piracy coding which I just bumped):

What does it sound like on Indy? Does it affect SDDS and DTS as well as SRD and analog?

Brad's picture suggests two blips a frame-and-a-half apart, but I imagine there's got to be more to it than that if they're actually going to code 14 bits of information in there.

Also, is this on all prints? Were all prints at Deluxe, or were some also at Technicolor? (not rare for a huge release)

Seems to me this is a much bigger issue for NATO to get on than a few padlocks.

--jhawk

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 05-22-2008, 01:13 PM:

If we have it on our print, I didn't notice it during the screening.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 05-22-2008, 01:27 PM:

When we screened this last night the DTS sound track seemed perfect nothing odd at any point and it never fell out that I could tell. Exactly what are they encoding at these points?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-22-2008, 01:27 PM:

The show prints were made at Technicolor lab. The general release prints were made at Deluxe.

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-22-2008, 02:45 PM:

quote: Ron Funderburg
When we screened this last night the DTS sound track seemed perfect nothing odd at any point and it never fell out

When we screened it last night reel 6 would bump in and out of DTS and it was very distracting, I wonder if it is on select reels, and I wonder it this is what made the DTS go in and out?

Analog would be there to fill in the blanks but it was noticeable!

Mike

Posted by Jonathan M. Crist (Member # 413) on 05-22-2008, 02:54 PM:

I did not make up the Indy print so I did not have a chance to look for the crap coding on the soundtrack. However when we ran it off in SDDS there were multiple dropouts at the end of Reel 2 (clustered together) and then there were three (3) seperate dropouts in Reel 5 (at different points in time) during the truck chase. I ASSUMED that this was what Brad was talking about.

Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 05-22-2008, 03:00 PM:

I might watch this tonight in one of my SRD houses. What are the symptoms of this on SRD? Will it cause a drop to analog or just an irritating noise? I may also be interlocking this between a DTS house and an SRD house, and my DTS house has analog problems at the moment. Will it cause a drop from DTS, and if so, how long to reacquire DTS? I did not build up either of my prints, so I don't know what shenanigans there are.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-22-2008, 04:17 PM:

Yes, we have the same CrAP too on reel 5, three times a reel.

Unbeliveable.

70cm, 27 inches, of blacked SRD (and SDDS too) and that blue thing on SR. I didn't screened Indy 4 (other projectionists are doing right now) but I suppose that it will sound like a small micro-interruption in the sound, plus the SR revertion.

Technicolor CAP has been "improved" during time. Lately it's almost not udible with a very short drop and a very short "beep" (but you have to have perfectly SR setup and a recent Dolby processor like 650).

What is this? 3 seconds of analog sound? This is just nonsense.

How many millions wasted in this thing? I really can't believe it.

Posted by Carey Barber (Member # 1586) on 05-22-2008, 05:24 PM:

We have received complaints about the sound dropping out in one of our SR-D houses.

We have had this same problem with two different prints (in the same house).

We swapped prints after the initial problem during the midnight show, but we had the same problem again today.

In both cases it has only been reel 5.

I am hoping that at least one of our 5 prints does not have this problem.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-22-2008, 05:40 PM:

It's not a problem it's intentional.

Call the distributor and complain. I think it's the only chance.

Otherwise, you can pay your next 10k bucks Dolby processor with money with a blue line on it.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-22-2008, 06:00 PM:

If anyone complains about this, give them refunds even if they saw the entire show. State why the refunds were given and be sure to let Paramount know.

Posted by Carey Barber (Member # 1586) on 05-22-2008, 06:18 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
State why the refunds were given and be sure to let Paramount know.

...and be sure to give the customers a contact for Paramount and/or Deluxe.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-22-2008, 06:31 PM:

Nah, the BEST thing to do (although I doubt few managers have the balls to do it) is to make a friendly announcement at the beginning of the movie that if the sound blips in reel 5 are annoying to them to please let a manager know when the movie is out so they can be issued a refund. At that time they should be given the phone number to Paramount and urged to complain.

After all, the theater makes their money from the concession stand.

I want to know what the studio is doing to fuck up the DIGITAL prints!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-22-2008, 08:10 PM:

I dunno...a barrage of complaints by as many people as possible in all forms...would certainly catch their attention. I'm sure someone at the studio actually thinks most people won't notice. Prove them wrong.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 05-23-2008, 06:55 AM:

This audio CRAP code is the most retarded idea I've ever seen. Do they think the pirates won't be able to mute this out or alter it? COME ON.

Maybe with digital cinema they will be able to come up with an inaudible audio cap code that will be difficult for the pirates to figure out how to filter but this is just STUPID. Plus, can't the pirates just record a DTS version that doesn't drop out???

Is this actually done photographically or are they printing some kind of ink on the film? If it's the latter, maybe it can be removed.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-23-2008, 07:39 AM:

Umm...why isn't everyone rejecting these reels as defective? Big blobs in the soundtrack would seem to qualify the reel as "unplayable," especially for a major first-run release.

(I would actually argue that cyan-track prints are defective as well, but few in film distribution would likely agree with me on this.)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-23-2008, 08:16 AM:

It wouldn't surprise me if the DTS discs also force an SR reversion during this section to ensure the "bumps" are played.

Steve

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-23-2008, 01:29 PM:

With Technicolor's system the DTS plays the annoying "blip" without dropping. Less annoying, but I really wonder HOW they made it!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-23-2008, 02:54 PM:

I just watched Indy and didn't hear any sound dropouts. It was a brand new system however and may not have been as susceptable as an older SRD reader may be. No complaints here.....

Posted by Andres Briano (Member # 4621) on 05-23-2008, 05:01 PM:

quote: Lyle Romer
This audio CRAP code is the most retarded idea I've ever seen. Do they think the pirates won't be able to mute this out or alter it? COME ON.

I agree 100% [beer]

quote: Lyle Romer
Maybe with digital cinema they will be able to come up with an inaudible audio cap code that will be difficult for the pirates to figure out how to filter but this is just STUPID.

Actually, let´s say you are right, what stops them from doing it right now? The physics of sound (output from a speaker) is exactly the same regardless of the playback system. That would make more sense than any other identifiable CrAP Code.

Andrés

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-23-2008, 06:54 PM:

I think they are banking on the theory that pirates are stupid. After all, it would be almost effortless to simply remove the frames with the visible cap code on a video bootleg.

Regardless, Deluxe is REFUSING to replace ANY reel 5 with ANY kind of sound problem because of this. I know because I had 1 out of 12 reel fives with issues and the schmucks at Deluxe firmly refused to swap it. Lovely. Nice work guys!!! [fu]

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-23-2008, 07:05 PM:

Wouldn't a sharpie marker over that crap take care of the annoying noise with silence and then revert back to the digital track?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-23-2008, 07:06 PM:

It would just cause a total dropout to silence. For that, it is just easier to thread the projector BYPASSING the analog sound drum altogether! (This is something easily accomplished on a Christie or DP70.)

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-23-2008, 07:10 PM:

Does intentional damage to the digital track at the production/lab level (and refusal to replace defective reels) violate the license agreements that allow the use of Dolby SR, SRD, DTS, and/or SDDS? If not, it should. No one is going to sell very many $5-15k processors in the future if prints are going to have intentional damage to the soundtracks.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-23-2008, 07:17 PM:

Well we sure as shit can't count on the help of NATO to save our presentations, so hopefully Dolby will take a stand against this nonsense. It would certainly make them look good as someone in this industry who CARES about quality. We'll see.

Some more examples sent in by other readers...

As you can see, it is in the same location on the reel. Look at the picture one of my team took and compare the image...

You can see in these last 2 images where the end of the blanking is, and if you count back 2.5 frames on mine there is a blip, followed by another blip 1.5 frames apart. On the vertical example above, the first blip is 2 frames away from the end of the blanking, and one frame of spacing apart. Clearly they figure they can load the audio into a computer and look at the timing of the dots to calculate the print number. Ingenious? Well, sort of in a lame kind of way. Quality oriented? Hell fuck no.

Still, this would be EASILY overcome in a non-linear editor such that it would be 100% concealed with maybe 3 minutes of work. This will NOT stop any professional pirate.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 05-23-2008, 09:46 PM:

quote: Andres Briano
Actually, let´s say you are right, what stops them from doing it right now? The physics of sound (output from a speaker) is exactly the same regardless of the playback system. That would make more sense than any other identifiable CrAP Code.

On film prints they can't alter the digital soundtrack separately for each print (since the processors were not designed with this in mind). In digital cinema, the server can insert things into the soundtrack that is unique for a particular screen. It is made easier because it is uncompressed audio so it's a lot easier than trying to integrate something into a compressed track.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 05-23-2008, 10:21 PM:

This explains A LOT about the issues we've been having. Of 5 prints, one refuses to stay in lock in a house where Iron Man played fine two weeks ago. We can put another print in and it works okay. But the error rates on all prints are all over the place. At some points, we not only drop to "F", but some sections of the print will actially show '-'. I think this practice is total bull shit. I mean the security dots are bad enough, but intentionally dropping out the audio is completely moronic.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-23-2008, 11:53 PM:

I haven't noticed a problem with my SRD track, though I'll pay more attention tonight.

For those of you who aren't owners, is a complaint to the lab as much as you can do? If the lab refused to service a print problem here, I'd be starting with my booker, then a couple of studio numbers. After (supposedly) getting the problem fixed, I'd be curious if the studio would admit to instructing the lab to refuse replacements.

Sure seems wierd.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-24-2008, 01:55 AM:

Well, if anyone wants out of their contract early I suppose they could always refuse to play it past when they want to due to the "print defects".

(I really hope at least someone does this.)

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-24-2008, 04:45 AM:

Blaine

This CAP is "only" for 1,5 seconds x 3 times, so it's not the issue you're describing.

I still have to see it running, but the Technicolor shit will have the processor revert and stay in "F", not "-" since only the center section of the SRD squares is covered by CAP. This way, I think, the square's corners are always seen and the processor will go back to SRD easily when the blue line disappears.

Marco

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-24-2008, 04:51 AM:

This would be so easy to defeat. I should post an online tutorial.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-24-2008, 04:54 AM:

Do it. Maybe the geniuses who devised this nonsense will be able to follow it. In fact, make an html page.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-24-2008, 10:42 AM:

I'll bet Spielberg didn't know about this. If he had such control over everything else, he surely wouldn't have allowed this.

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 05-24-2008, 02:57 PM:

Has anyone actually heard what this sounds like? I watched two different prints in two different auditoriums equipped with SRD prior to coming across this thread, and I didn't notice a problem with either. So just now I went downstairs and watched most of the reel again, and I still didn't notice anything. The sound did not seem to drop out of SRD, and I couldn't hear anything that sounded out of the ordinary. I would assume that the sound would need to be fairly noticeable for it to be detected on a crappy bootleg's audio.

Is it possible that the code appears in different parts of the reel? I watched from the Tarzan scene through the waterfall scene.

Next time I'll watch the processor and see what that does. I'm also going to listen to the reels from both of our prints during the last set, but I'd like to know what it is I'm listening for. Is it just a complete dropout of sound?

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-24-2008, 03:06 PM:

On my reels the blu line on SRD is much lighter (in density) than Technicolor ones. Perhaps it's not enough to drop to SR.

I'll check tomorrow and I'll let you know

Marco

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 05-24-2008, 03:54 PM:

I just watched that scene on our other print from the booth, and the sound does indeed drop out of SRD on that print. I'm going to try to be in the auditorium for the next show to see what it sounds like.

Posted by Carey Barber (Member # 1586) on 05-24-2008, 05:05 PM:

We received the following notice from Deluxe Film Services:

quote:
The problem is NOT with the reel. The problem is either with there DTS or Optical reader. There reader is out of alignment. The track is set up to revert back to analog and 'IF" it's not there reader is out of alignment.

Jenna Mars
Booking Coordinator / Art Division
Eastern Territory
Deluxe Film Services

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 05-24-2008, 05:26 PM:

I went into the theater and listened again during the last show. The track dropped out of SRD, but I did not hear anything out of the ordinary on the soundtrack itself. I did, however, see a bunch of orange dots on the picture. So if this new audio code is a replacement for the visual code, it seems like the less distracting of the two. That being said, I'm guessing they'll continue to use both.

Posted by Emma Tomiak (Member # 1862) on 05-24-2008, 06:18 PM:

I think Jenna at Deluxe needs to go back to elementary school and learn to spell.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-24-2008, 06:32 PM:

Nah. Her spelling is perfect.

On the other hand, she could clearly use a grammar lesson. [Razz]

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-24-2008, 08:53 PM:

Emma is right [Smile]

No, the system is not designed to replace the visual one. I spoke with Technicolor once, and they made this system to "stop" [Frown]

pirates that takes (particularly in my country) DVD rip from US on p2p and replace the sound recording it in cinemas. So they must put something in a "portable recording" bandwidth.

Next step is a subtitle "this is copy # 342..... this is copy #342" with a voice that says the same thing over the soundtrack.

Glad to hear that this anti-piracy mark is not so annoying, but it's a very poor waste of money, lot of money.

However, in the real world many theaters does not have SR readers so aligned, or just have older processor (say CP65 + DA20) where drops are more evident.

Marco

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-24-2008, 08:53 PM:

Emma and Chris, you took the words right out of my mouth (or keyboard).

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-24-2008, 10:51 PM:

quote:
Emma is right [Smile]

Actually, she's not. She didn't misspell anything; she correctly spelled the wrong word which is different from misspelling.

Posted by Emma Tomiak (Member # 1862) on 05-24-2008, 11:29 PM:

Yeah yeah yeah [Razz]

I actually should have used the word grammar as well, but I was in a hurry to make an amusing remark before anyone else and I didn't think about it. [Big Grin]

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 05-25-2008, 01:10 AM:

Checked our DTS during the scenes in reel #5 and it does not revert back to analog or drop sound in any way.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-25-2008, 03:22 AM:

quote:
The problem is NOT with the reel. The problem is either with there DTS or Optical reader. There reader is out of alignment. The track is set up to revert back to analog and 'IF" it's not there reader is out of alignment.

Jenna Mars
Booking Coordinator / Art Division
Eastern Territory
Deluxe Film Services

"Art Division" ??? So Deluxe considers fucking up the sound on the movies they print an art now?

Posted by Robert LaValley (Member # 4319) on 05-25-2008, 03:05 PM:

This whole weekend I've gotten comlaints from customers about the sound dropping out and I checked all the equipement and the prints and its this damn audio-crap-code. I just have my staff apologise and tell them to write paramount to complain becuase of the problem being so "wide spread". Most people understand and hopefully will write paramount. It would be nice to see a bunch of people complain it ruined the movie for them so the studio would wake up and figure something different to prevent piracy. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mike Schindler (Member # 1309) on 05-25-2008, 03:56 PM:

Robert, when you say "sound dropping out," do you mean sound dropping out of digital or sound dropping out completely? What format are you using?

On our prints, the sound drops out of digital for about two seconds, and the switch from digital to analog and back is hidden by sound effects in the movie. The CAP code itself is something I would have never noticed had I not known where it was and been listening for it.

Is it possible that you have an unintentionally bad print?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-25-2008, 04:02 PM:

The problem here stems from the equipment setup. First, some processors like the CP500 and most firmware on the DFP3000 put a tiny "blip/mute" in the sound during revisions to analog. THAT is very noticeable.

The second problem is if the analog isn't resorting to SR (many theaters only have reverting to A).

Third, another problem is if the analog reader is not precisely aligned, there will be a huge difference in level and quality or in some cases one side of the theater's sound may disappear in the instance of a badly aligned analog reader.

Fourth, there are still people running DFP2000s out there. On those the "0.0" is supposed to be calibrated against the "7.0" setting on the analog processor, but the issue here is that few people actually run at 0.0 / 7.0 and turning it down becomes an almost impossibility to precisely level match up the digital and even the most perfectly aligned SR. To make matters worse, the internal pink noise generator is hf deficient in those units, so the tonal quality will be noticeable any way you slice it.

What about people who foolishly bought into the dts6-ad joke? The analog on those is godawful!!! Again, a major noticeable difference during the dropout.

I know of several theaters that do not have analog backup sound too, or their analog has a horrible hum/buzz in the sound. Yes people can point the finger at the tech, but many techs out there are responsible for hundreds of screens and quite simply do not have the time! (I am speaking of chain techs where this is most common, but that isn't their fault.)

Then there are other issues such as a scratch being on the analog soundtrack, etc. The list goes on.

Art division???

Posted by Robert LaValley (Member # 4319) on 05-25-2008, 05:20 PM:

quote: Mike Schindler
Robert, when you say "sound dropping out," do you mean sound dropping out of digital or sound dropping out completely? What format are you using?

We have the CP650's and running in dolby digital and I should have wrote dropping out of digital cuz your right I did make it sound like it was dropping out completely which is isnt. As for it being a bad print, it isnt becuase we have 5 prints that all do the same thing and I have ran them all in a bunch of different houses in my 12 screen (we've been interlocking alot) so I definately attribute the format switch to the cap code. Especially since I have watched it go through the reader and witnessed the effect myself. Our customers seem more picky then most theatres I have been at which is fine for me cuz it keeps me on my A-game. Plus I'm only getting error levels of 2 or 3 using Vic-5's basement sound readers so I dont see any other reason why it would just randomly switch.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-25-2008, 05:39 PM:

I was watching at reel 5 today from booth. Still have to see the whole movie from the auditorium.
Seems that it's different from Technicolor's crap. Tech's one is usually put during quite scene and a "blip" is heard in the auditorium.
Deluxe's crap is put on very loud scene, since it mute the sound for a perforation (the blue bubble on the S/T) and they want to recognize precisely the mute moments.

Now some observations:

1. The blue bubble will mute the analog sound for a perforation, that is 1/96 of a second. Do you know an auditorium with a reverberation time equal or less of 1/96 of a second??? In other words, the reverberation will cover that mute, IMHO. The only way to recognize that CAP is when someone will record the sound directly from the sound processor.
2. I just checked from booth two of the three CrAP. Loud scenes. In that moments the SR will be more noticeable for sure! Dynamic, surrounds, subs...

I agree with Brad: it's insane to think that all theaters has perfectly aligned sound systems and latest sound processors.

Marco

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 05-26-2008, 09:58 AM:

It's too bad that corporate greed is more important than quality.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-26-2008, 06:43 PM:

Just saw Indy 4.

Was in DTS and I was not able to hear anything. But I'm sure that DTS will not drop. It could be like Technicolor CAP where DTS is able to insert the CAP directly on sound, but I don't think so, since the release of the DTS.EXE used is still the 2007 one.

I'll see reel 5 in a SRD house soon.

Marco

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-26-2008, 07:38 PM:

There is no way a dts6 or a dts6d or a dts6ad player could insert audio cap code into the sound. Maybe the XD10 could be upgraded to do it, but certainly not the older players. As such, if the dts does indeed NOT drop out to analog, what Deluxe is doing is intentionally causing failures targeted at Dolby and Sony's product and hopefully a nice fat juicy lawsuit will be forthcoming.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 05-26-2008, 08:26 PM:

The only way I could see of them causing the DTS to drop out is to mis-print the DTS timecode for several feet. Even a gap of 4 frames as shown in these images will be 'ignored', assuming when the timecode resumes, the film and player are still in sync. I think the code has to be missing for something like 4-6 feet before the player will drop out of Digital.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-26-2008, 09:19 PM:

Brad

I heard personally the CAP code on DTS while in DTS, same place where SRD drops. That MSDOS machine can insert that, don't ask me how, seems very strange to me too because this means that on timecode there is print number encoded.
I spoke with a Technicolor tech once that confirm me that (was very proud of it), but I was able to hear with my own ears before. The "blip" comes from the center channel only, and DTS will NOT drop. Less noticeable, at least.

My opinion is that Deluxe has still to work with DTS to have its new garbage on DTS too. Or, perhaps, they will never put on DTS, since I suppose that DTS will not do it for free and that a laser put on a printer is cheaper than a new release of software for all DTS machines! [Smile]

Marco

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-27-2008, 01:41 AM:

You know, if this stuff were actually stopping piracy, then one could understand the studios' reasoning and maybe we wouldn't feel so outraged about it. But has anyone heard about ANY pirating rings stopped or brought to justice directly due to this nonsensical system?

Has that humungous dollar figure loss they give out every so often been reduced since the introduction of these new audio CrAPs? If any of their anti-piracy efforts were even marginally effective, we should see some reduction in that loss figure. Seems to me, if you were to stop even a portion of the hemorage of profit, what a windfall, eh? Hey, they could even reduce ticket prices if they could stop priracy and give the theatres better percentages. Yah, right.

Funny thing is, that loss figure only goes UP every time it's quoted. And if CrAPs ARE effective, why doesn't the MPAA trumpeted their successful prosecutions? NAME the "pirates" who have been stopped and gone to jail because of a noise on the soundtrack and blotches on the screen. Surely it would be to their benefit to let it generally be know thru their many press releases while they're blathering on and on about the cost of piracy to them, that this or that piracy ring with warehouses full of DVDs of this or that hot title were discovered because of this CrAP system. That certainly hasn't happened AFAIK.

So either this new audio CrAP system is just an exercise in futility which their security divisions spend their time devising so they can justify their existence, OR....how bout this theory.....any chance the studios have insurance policies against piracy? Maybe this is a smoke-screen to satisfy the insurance companies that the studios are doing everything they can to thwart bootleggers.....so that they can collect on that 100 THOUSAND GAZILLION dollars they claim they loose every year to piracy. Okay, I said it's just a theory. [Eek!]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-27-2008, 02:10 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
has anyone heard about ANY pirating rings stopped or brought to justice directly due to this nonsensical system?

Of course not. You'd think they'd want to advertise how many pirates they have stopped in order to scare/prevent other pirates from copying in the first place, but they never mention anything. My guess is because they haven't caught anyone. Also if thy say they caught anyone, they won't be able to complain about piracy as much. It's a real catch 22: do the studios like to scare pirates from even daring to pirate movies more, or do they enjoy whining about piracy more? My guess is the latter.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-27-2008, 05:16 AM:

Unfortunately there's a guy in Italy that has been caught with that Cap on sound. He (says) was not really a pirate, just an ingenuous projectionist, but has been caught.

Was on newspapers many months ago.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-27-2008, 06:18 AM:

He must have hooked his audio straight from the processor into whatever he was using to record.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 05-28-2008, 09:28 PM:

At 12:27pm on 5/27, this topic came up on the widely read BOING-BOING blog and this Film-Tech thread has been referenced, with instructions on how to get here directly. Might be quite a bit of traffic trying to get in here for awhile...Boing-Boing has a VERY large readership.

You can read the current Boing-Boing thread here .

[ 05-29-2008, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Mark Lensenmayer ]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-28-2008, 10:00 PM:

I thought this one was good on the Boing-Boing forum...

>>Lucas already has the winning formula for keeping people from pirating his movies - make sure they suck ass.<<

[thumbsup]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 05-29-2008, 01:03 AM:

quote: Mark Lensenmayer
the widely red BOING-BOING blog

Too bad it isn't widely read, or we might be able to make some more noise about this issue. [Wink]

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 05-29-2008, 06:59 AM:

OK, Joe, I've read that "red" is not correct in that post, so now you can read "read" as it is supposed to be read.

Happy reading!

Anyway, they can't really deny there is a problem, as photographic proof exists, but I don't see them admitting that anti-piracy has anything to do with it. So, here is a sample of what I expect to see soon from some low-level PR person at Paramount...

quote:
Paramount Pictures is deeply concerned about reports of sound problems with the recent release of INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL. First quality presentation of our releases is extremely important to us, and anything that disturbs our patrons is not acceptable. Paramount's Senior Engineering staff have looked into the problem, and have discovered that one of our laboratory partners used a slightly damaged master print. Our lab has isolated the problem, and has assured us that this problem will not happen again. The sound dropouts were not intentional and not part of any anti-piracy campaign.
We apologize to anyone whose enjoyment of INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL was interrupted by this minor problem, and we assure all of our patrons that we take their moviegoing experience seriously.

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 05-29-2008, 08:42 AM:

Through our booker we received an email admitting that the drop outs are due to a "security watermark". This same email also states that the problem is not with the print but with "...the settings on your projector(s)", it goes on to say that the effects can be corrected by "properly re-balancing the audio levels between Digital and Analog". It also says that if your tech people need further assistance to contact Deluxe.

So instead of putting out a quality product, Paramount put audio watermarks on their prints KNOWING that many theatres will have sound issues (not to mention it is the theatre staff that gets blamed by the customers who notice the sound issue and not Paramount).

I'm told digital contains audio watermarking as well, but supposedly it is more subtle - I'm going to have to watch IJ4 in digital again to see if I can pick it out.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 05-29-2008, 10:40 AM:

Here is the referenced email. We received this on Wednesday from Paramount...

quote:
It has come to our attention that some theatres are experiencing multiple sound drops on Reel 5 of INDIANA JONES. If any of your theatres are experiencing this “problem” be aware that the issue is not with the prints, but with the settings on your projector(s).

The sound drops are due to a “security watermark” whose effect can apparently be corrected by properly re-balancing sound levels between Digital and Analog.

Below is the official explanation…

“There are 3 digital sound reversions within reel 5 of Indiana Jones, where the sound will switch from Digital to Analog. These reversions are part of a security system that is embedded within all prints of Indiana Jones. If you should experience sound level issues between digital and analog you will have to re-balance the sound levels between Digital and Analog and this will correct the situation. The reversion should only last a few seconds within reel 5.”

If your tech people need further assistance, please have them contact Deluxe Film Service.

I guess what really irritates me about this is that people seem to think this is OK. To intentionally revert to analog audio and play a square-wave is just stupid. This kind of thing will keep people out of the theaters...

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-29-2008, 12:02 PM:

quote: Blaine Young
This kind of thing will keep people out of the theaters...

Nah. If the theatre's sound system is set up properly, and idiot owners don't post stupid signs calling attention to the problem, 99.9% of people will either never notice, or think it's a small glitch and forget about it by the end of the movie.

We're playing this next week, I'm looking forward to finding out how it's going to sound here. I don't think we'll have any complaints.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-29-2008, 12:52 PM:

If this is indeed on all prints, how come I didn't hear it? I mean I was paying close attention esp. in reel 5, and I'm sure there were no drops to analog. Dropping out to analog is usually very audible if you're paying attention, no matter how carefully the system is set up. How could they possibly mask multiple such dropouts?

Has it been established yet exactly what they're doing on DTS playback? Are the CDs encoded with some audible sound?

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 05-29-2008, 01:00 PM:

Maybe Paramount's argument would work if it was done during a quite scene but somebody should tell them that digital soundtracks have wider dynamic range than an SR track (and many theaters still have "A" as back up). So even if the system is properly set up the volume in a loud sequence will drop when the switch to SR happens. Additionally you will lose the LFE channel and the stereo surround. If Paramount has figured out a way to make an SR track sound exactly like a digital track then they could have saved a lot of people a lot of money on the digital sound upgrade.

quote: David Stambaugh
If this is indeed on all prints, how come I didn't hear it?

Was your show presented in DTS? As far as I can tell, DTS does not drop out and sounds just fine. Another possibility is that the show ran in SR from start to finish due to a mis-thread or other malfunction of the digital system.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-29-2008, 01:05 PM:

quote: Lyle Romer
Another possibility is that the show ran in SR from start to finish

It was definitely digital, with split surrounds. I don't know for sure if it was Dolby or DTS but everything was 100% digital from start to finish including all trailers and there were no audible "issues". I'll see if I can find out for sure. [Wink]

Has anyone recorded this audible reversion in a properly-aligned SR-D setup so we can hear what it is we're supposed to notice?

And what the heck good is this audio CAP code if it doesn't work with DTS? [Confused]

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 05-29-2008, 02:06 PM:

I wonder is Spielberg knew about this and signed off on it? Would certainly be a bit hypocritical, all the stink that was made over showing 35mm. Unless you're playing it in DTS this would mean the digital version is definately of better quality than the 35mm.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 05-29-2008, 02:24 PM:

Mike is right if the sound systems are aligned right and the sound levels are close most folks will not notice it. Now if Dolby makes some kind of noise on it's own when it drops out that is different but most people don't know the difference unless the levels are out of a lot or there is something else that draws their attention to it.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 05-29-2008, 03:46 PM:

I just saw IJ on film at the Regal in Manassas, VA. I was paying close attention during reel 5 and did not notice any dropouts or unusual tones.

Their presentation was okay but I did notice 2 mid-reel splices during the show that showed a white line at the join and cause a noticable blip in the sound.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 05-29-2008, 04:03 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
I don't think we'll have any complaints.

Ya know Mike, I'm thinking of coming up there to your theatre and watching that film in my Inspector Clouseau disguise and then complain to you about the sound just to yank your chain! You will NEVER recognize me! HA! Huggs! [Razz]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-29-2008, 06:00 PM:

Phil, you'd never survive here...temps still in the low to mid 60s! [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-29-2008, 06:02 PM:

Ahhh...now that is MY kind of weather!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-29-2008, 06:51 PM:

I just went and read the boingboing thread. (Well, skimmed over it, but I got the gist of it.) A bunch of misinformation, speculation, exaggeration, and stupidness about "sticky floors" and so forth. If the dork who started that thread had worded his post more properly, the brouhaha would have been much less. For one thing, he accuses Paramount IN HIS THREAD TITLE of "silencing portions of Indiana Jones," making it sound as if there are giant chunks of the film without sound.

About 80% of the thread is a bunch of crap from a bunch of whiners who either haven't seen/heard the movie, or just like to dump on the cinema experience as a pastime.

Not that I'm not peeved about this whole thing. We are running a CP650 here and our system has been thoroughly "Gulbransen'd," but I'm still a little apprehensive about what might happen. I likely won't have time for a pre-screening due to tight circuits, but will probably run R5 ahead of time just to see what kind of crap I'll be dealing with. I'm hoping it doesn't make me regret switching away from DTS.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-29-2008, 07:13 PM:

quote: Phil Hill
Ya know Mike, I'm thinking of coming up there to your theatre and watching that film in my Inspector Clouseau disguise

Don't forget to bring your 'minkey'. [Wink]

quote: Mike Blakesley
I'm hoping it doesn't make me regret switching away from DTS.

Finally, a reason to still have DTS installed. [Eek!]

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 05-29-2008, 07:31 PM:

Some years ago, when the recording companies wanted to cut frequencies around 3000 Hz on CDs as some sort of anti-copying crap, Congress had the NBS or the NIST (I don't rememer which) look at it. They said this would impact the quality of the sound, and Congress said NO to this greed based crap. Maybe it's time for Congress to take a look at the movie studio's greed based crap, and say NO to it as well.

I think it's a pile of crap, that after your theater has spent a lot of money on digital audio systems, Paramount feels that they have the right to make them intentionally fail. I would love to see all the theaters get together, and tell Paramount that they will not run IJ again until all the "defective" reel 5s are replaced with reels that play without a problem. [puke]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-29-2008, 08:10 PM:

Played perfectly well at Baxter Ave. in Louisville. CP-500 with basement reader in Century soundhead. Louis

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-29-2008, 08:27 PM:

I'm with Bruce.
Hundreds of thousand of dollars for equipment and then they draw a line on the soundtrack...

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 05-29-2008, 10:11 PM:

quote: Rick Raskin
I just saw IJ on film at the Regal in Manassas, VA. I was paying close attention during reel 5 and did not notice any dropouts or unusual tones.

Their presentation was okay but I did notice 2 mid-reel splices during the show that showed a white line at the join and cause a noticable blip in the sound.

Factory splices are all too common. You'd think they could find 1800 feet of stock that doesn't have a splice in it. That aside, a single sprocket of damaged SRD audio should not have created a perceivable blip in the audio. SDDS and DTS would have been even less noticable. Could they have been playing the print in SR?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-30-2008, 12:18 PM:

So, is it really true that the position of the fallback to analog is what the coding is here? If so,it seems really bizarre, since in a well-maintained system, the glitch should be nearly inaudible (especially after the camcorder microphone is done with it).

I had (at first) assumed that the coding was [sub-]audible tones in the analog soundtrack, and that digital fell back to analog because it's a lot harder to program a laser to output SRD blocks. But I guess that is not true? [Or if it's true, they are sufficiently sub-audible that it is not a problem?]

Blaine, raw stock comes from Kodak on 6,000 reels. So on average every 3 (or 3 1/3 if you want 1,800' reels) should have a lab splice. But perhaps another thread if you have brilliant ideas...

--jhawk

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 05-30-2008, 03:29 PM:

Anyone know the easiest "Joe Public" contact for Paramount to complain about this? I definitely won't be seeing this movie, even if it plays at a good theater in the area, because of this. I've stopped watching all Fox movies in theaters too, even if they're free, because they've all recently had visible crap code, usually in the 2nd reel.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-30-2008, 04:21 PM:

Presumably you "write to the top":

Brad Grey
Chairman & Chief Executive Officer
Paramount Pictures
5555 Melrose Ave
Hollywood, CA 90038
+1 323-956-5000

(though I guess Redstone is also an option).

--jhawk

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 05-30-2008, 04:34 PM:

FWIW: This talk about CAP codes, visual and audible, leaves me wondering; why not just bar code the cue marks? Surely a binary code could be impressed on the circumference of one or more cues and would be imperceptible to all but the keenest of eyes. Any thoughts on this? Has it already been proposed and rejected?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-30-2008, 05:24 PM:

I believe that falls under "too easily filtered." Since cue marks appear in the same place in every frame, and follow the same positioning rule in every movie (1 and 8 seconds before the reel ends), and are distinctive enough that they could be filtered out with some relatively simple automated software processing, then there are three reasons not to use cue marks for CAP purposes.

Any one of those reasons is probably sufficient to condemn it, and all three are a pretty strong case against it. [Frown]

--jhawk

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-31-2008, 01:13 AM:

quote: John Hawkinson
So, is it really true that the position of the fallback to analog is what the coding is here?

Good question. There seem to be two stories coming out of Paramount... one, sent through the booker, admitting to security watermarking, and the other, more public one, blaming it on print masters.

How long would it take to come up with 9700 unique locations, so the specific print could be located? For that matter, this whole idea depends on the sound system reverting at specific times, with no delays induced by various buffer sizes.

Methinks it's a screwy way to track piracy that probably happened weeks before any of us got our prints.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 05-31-2008, 07:37 AM:

Jack,

quote: Jack Ondracek
For that matter, this whole idea depends on the sound system reverting at specific times, with no delays induced by various buffer sizes.

The amount of delay used for displaced digital sound readers is calibrated so SRA and digital are both in sync for the projected image. Therefore the length of delay is different for each installation but the resulting reversion to SRA from digital remains in sync.

For that matter, this whole idea depends on the sound system reverting at specific times, with no delays induced by various buffer sizes. Digital failure would have to be designed to cause reversion to Analog in ALL instances. Slight differences in sensing and switching would have to be accounted for in the "planned digital track failure!"

First it was "planned obsolescence" and now it's "Planned malfunction!" What next???

KEN

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-31-2008, 04:35 PM:

I'm sure this isn't the right thread but it doesn't warrant a new thread and it isn't really a review (though it might better be suited there)...

Has anyone else noticed that the opening credits (which are all that I have personally seen) were made using the lowest resolution seemingly possible? There is aliasing all over them and this was on a film print!

Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-31-2008, 05:17 PM:

It's digital Steve. Stop complaining. Digital is perfect.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 05-31-2008, 05:34 PM:

DLP

Dancing Little Pixels

[ 06-01-2008, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Kenneth Wuepper ]

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-31-2008, 06:46 PM:

Strange. I actually use the opening credits to focus since that fonts with that double thin legs are perfect for it.

But credits in Italy are translated. I don't want belive that this time we did something right... It was a mistake for sure! [Smile]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-01-2008, 11:46 AM:

quote: Kenneth Wuepper
Dancing Little Pixels

Wahhhhaha! Kenneth RULES! [thumbsup]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-01-2008, 12:27 PM:

Yeah Brad but this film was supposd to be all analog...you know...shot on film, cut on film...etc. I expected to see strings holding things up and such.

However...aliased letters in a film print? Come on...how LOW a resolution do you need to go to get that?

I'm also curious if on the digital versions if the low-res characters interacted with the digital pixel grid...especially since they are a version of "outline" characters.

Steve

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-07-2008, 01:05 AM:

To get back on topic. We opened the movie today and as expected, got the film at around 4:00 PM so no time for anything but the quickest inspection. The sound played perfectly here on our CP650. (I do agree the digital prairie dogs were kind of annoying.)

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 06-07-2008, 01:19 AM:

I love that font for focusing, its just a damn sexy font. That and the Lucas logo, you can get quite sharp on that. Unfortunately the screen it got moved to is on such a sharp projection angle you can't focus the whole screen, its a focus compromise. [Big Grin]

Posted by Luci Reeve (Member # 3651) on 06-16-2008, 01:09 PM:

We got the sound glitch on our print and when I looked at it there was that blue line through the digital information. I put a mono cue before the first of the three glitches and a digital cue after the last one. We also had that problem with our Prince Caspian print and played the whole thing in mono because it was in the whole movie. Indiana Jones is just on reel 5. I never saw anything like it! The sound cut completely out except for a screeching noise! I was hoping thisw was an anomoly but I guess not.

Posted by Jonathon Miller (Member # 4863) on 08-16-2008, 12:40 PM:

I'd splice it out and send it back, telling them it is not worth the complaints the desk is fielding regarding audio defects.

Y'know, like a hostage sometimes loses a thumb to the postal service?

Then again, there is probably good reason I'm a booth jockey and not mgt...

Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 09-29-2008, 08:58 PM:

Just noticed that Eagle Eye also has this wonderful "copy protection" on it. Several times in reel 2 during the absurd get-away scene with the Porsche SUV the SRD error rate will go from 2-3 to F just long enough to drop to analog for a few seconds and they go right back to 2-3. Also, I took a look at the print and it's got the blue line through the SRD track with the blue blobs on the analog, just like in Brad's photos.

[ 09-29-2008, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Jon P. Inghram ]

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-29-2008, 09:40 PM:

Burn After Reading in the JPEG2000 format may also have this. I noticed it the other day, its the scene just before Brad Pitt meets John Malkovich, right when Pitt and McDormand exit the gym out the back door and she tells him he has to wear a suit, there is an audio glitch, almost like a dolby processor dropping out quick at a lab splice or other defect. I've noticed this one two different screens with completely different sound systems.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-30-2008, 04:00 AM:

So I was not dreaming!

I heard it too but seems a bit loud to me to be an antipiracy system...

35mm SRD.

Marco

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 05-23-2010, 12:30 PM:

It has been 600 days since the last post.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 05-23-2010, 12:30 PM:

Warner Bros. sued for pirating anti-piracy technology

quote:
DID WARNER BROS. PIRATE ANTIPIRACY TECHNOLOGY?

Fri May 21, 2010 @ 01:52PM PST
By Eriq Gardner

Warner Bros. has been sued for stealing an antipiracy technology patent.

The claim comes from a German company called Medien Patent Verwaltung. According to new infringement lawsuits filed against Warners, Technicolor and Deluxe in New York and Germany, MPV says that in 2003, it introduced the studio to a method of marking films with a distinctive code so it could track back sources of piracy to the exact theater in which an unauthorized copy originated. MPV says it has been trying to get Warners to pay for use of the technology since it allegedly began incorporating the invention in prints throughout Europe in 2004.

“We disclosed our anti-piracy technology to Warner Bros. in 2003 at their request, under strict confidentiality, expecting to be treated fairly," MPV says in a statement. "Instead, they started using our technology extensively without our permission and without any accounting to us. However, we had taken care to obtain patents to protect MPV's technology, and we are now in a position where we must assert our rights.”

Warner Bros. declines to comment on the dispute. But we've discovered that MPV made a little mistake in its New York lawsuit.

The patent that MPV cites in its complaint is 7,187,633, entitled "Motion Picture and Anti-Piracy Coding."

But our search of the patent records reveals that patent number has another title: "Marking of a Data Medium Material for Information Intended for Reproduction." There is another patent entitled "Motion Picture and Anti-Piracy Coding." The assignee? You guessed it: Warner Bros.

Did the Germans accidentally steal the title of Warners' own patent when suing the studio for stealing?

The answer appears to be yes. Reached for comment, New York attorney Richard Garbarini, representing the plaintiffs, admits the error and says he will file an amended complaint.

In the meantime, there's still the larger issue of whether a major studio stole technology to help it prevent people from stealing its movies.

Complaint PDF

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-01-2010, 03:53 PM:

Good one. [Roll Eyes]