Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: ChicagoCinema Museum

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Posted by Hans Van Der Vlist (Member # 3315) on 06-05-2008, 03:29 AM:

@ Gordon McLeod and/or Tim Reed,

When I looked at the pictures of the Chicago Cinema Museum I noticed there were some debates about the brand/make of some of the soundprojectors.
One of them was a picture of a Norelco/Philips DP70 with on its left another projector ( in your opinion probably a Dresden 35/70 or a DP75)
I've shown those pictures on the German projectionist forum and in their opinion the left projector is a prototype/first model of a DP75 (Kinoton or Norelco).
There was another picture of a projector where was a doubt about wether it was a Microtechnica or a Zeiss Ikon Ernemann.
This projector is definitive a Micron 35 ( microtechnica made in Italy) I know that for sure since I have worked with them.

Hope this helps,
Hans. [beer]

[ 06-05-2008, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Hans Van Der Vlist ]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-05-2008, 07:56 AM:

Actually that projector to the left of the DP-70 is a Crown 35/70mm projector. They were a Norelco copy that was made in Japan and if memory servers me I believe Toshiba Photophone built the optical soundhead with in. The optical sound head Toshiba built was a close copy of the RCA sound reproducer. That particuluar machine used to belong to yours truely but was donated to the museum quite a number of yers ago. It was removed from Bob Dominic's X-rated theater in Oakland, CA. Also, there are still a few mistakes in the camera pages and I'm surprised that Tim didn't catch these.... The camera on the dolly is not a Mitchell NC... it's actually a Wall Sound on film camera... for those that are not in the know Wall also built all the 3-strip Cinerama cameras. The green camera is also not a Mitchell NC... its one of the few Fox Cinemascope 55 cameras that were built.

Cheers!
Mark

Posted by Hans Van Der Vlist (Member # 3315) on 06-05-2008, 09:25 AM:

Thanks Mark for the correction.

I have relayed your post to the German Forum so that in the future they have the right answers.

Greetz Hans. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-05-2008, 12:42 PM:

Hans,
Also on that same page the two supposed Cinerama magazines standing on the floor are actually Cinemiracle Magazine assemblies. The Cinemiracle feed and takeup mags sat on the floor under each projector. The picture of the three projectors sitting together that someone thought might be special purpose Centurys are a trio of Cinemiracle projectors on their mounts and bases. Cinemiracle was a much better projection system overall than Cinerama was. So ok, I guess you might call those heads "Special Purpose" Centurys after all.

Mark

Posted by Dan Sherlock (Member # 4663) on 06-06-2008, 01:22 AM:

Mark,

Actually the green camera is not a CinemaScope 55 camera -- it is a Fearless Super-Film camera. The most obvious giveaway is the shield on the film magazine that is the logo for the Fearless Camera Co. The camera itself also pretty much matches the published images of the camera. The other giveaway is that the film advance claw doesn't have twice the advance (i.e., 8 perfs rather than 4 perfs) of a standard camera.

The Super-Film camera was originally a 65mm camera, although it could be easily adapted to smaller gauges including 35mm. Because of this feature, it was used as the basis for the camera that was modified circa 1931 to shoot test footage of the SMPE proposed 50mm wide film format. If the spacing between the rows of teeth on the sprockets indicates a film gauge of about 50mm or so, then my guess is that it was probably used for this test footage. If the spacing is wider, then it might in fact be a regular Super-Film camera configured for 65mm film.

There are three known designs that were built for CinemaScope 55. The first was a modified Stein 70mm Grandeur Nature Color camera. The mechanism was removed and replaced with a 55mm movement. This is the camera that shows up in the publicity photos. The second design was made from scratch by Mitchell, and is a "box within a box" design to cut down on the noise. Rather than having the entire camera rack over on a base, the internal "box" racked over within the outer box. The third design was made by the Fox camera department, and is an enormous camera with a "rack back" movement where the film movement can rack back away from the lens and a periscope finder can then pivot in.

I have personally seen and inspected the insides of all three of the CinemaScope 55 camera designs. They all have that obvious 8-perf advance movement that is not present in the photo of the camera in Chicago.

-Dan

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-06-2008, 07:55 AM:

Thnks Dan... I hope Carey Williams, the owner of the museum sees your post. He always has led everyone to believe that it was a 55mm camera. Another giveaway point that it isn't would also be the lens turrett on this camera that never could mount the anamorphics they utilized for CS55. BTW: I happen to own Stein 8 perf camera Ser#2!!

Thanks!

Mark

Posted by Dan Sherlock (Member # 4663) on 06-06-2008, 08:17 PM:

Mark,

I've seen Serial #'s 8 and 9 of the Stein camera. It seems to be quite a few cameras that were made for a format that was never shown to the public (i.e., 8-perf advance 70mm Grandeur 2-color additive color.)

-Dan

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-06-2008, 09:26 PM:

Mine was a two color Stein camera. Now an 8 perf VV camera and probably the only Stein movement that has three reg pins and the aperature moved to the correct position(in relation to the reg pins). Someone at Fox way back whenever did a masterful job on this movement. I also have a copy of the the original Stein 2-color camera manual that came with the camera.

Mark

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 06-07-2008, 04:44 AM:

Mark, in Australia the Toshiba Crown 35/70mm projector was marketed as a Toshiba. I always thought that Crown was simply a model name for a 70mm projector by the Toshiba Photophone Co.

Was Crown a manufacturer in their own right?

If so it sounds like a similar situation to Bauer U3 35/70mm, as some had mag sound heads labelled Siemens and others by Klangfilm which I understand were separate divisions of the same company.

David

Posted by Dick Prather (Member # 1136) on 06-07-2008, 03:17 PM:

The projectors sold in the US were made by Nichion which made the Crown and Imperial models. I think David is correct and they were made by Toshiba and used the Nichion name for US sales.

The Crown was a three piece model like the Simplex 35/70 with a modified Toshiba Photophone 9030 soundhead and a pull through mag head.

The Imperial was a one piece large unit like the Norelco AA.

The projector looks exactly like the Toshiba models in their sales flyer. I have a complete Crown model and have seen two set-up's with the Imperial.
Dick

Posted by Dan Sherlock (Member # 4663) on 06-08-2008, 01:54 AM:

Mark,

You have the manual for the Stein Grandeur Nature Color camera? I'm amazed they even made a manual for such an obscure format.

Does the manual happen to say which colors were used with each of the two lenses? I cound not find any color filters on the cameras I examined, nor did I spot any obvious place where they would be located. Also, I found that the apertures were slightly smaller than those found on the standard Mitchell Grandeur (FC) camera. Does the manual happen to state the dimensions of the apertures?

According to the documentation I have found, Mitchell made the 8-perf Grandeur movements and shipped them to Stein to put into the cameras.

-Dan

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-08-2008, 09:23 AM:

Dan
I have pictures of the lenses and filters, will scan them and post later on, manual too if I can find it around here. My camera came from the late Les Day... Les had many of the lenses and filters as well as knowing where a half dozen of these cameras were at. The lenses were one piece and the filter red/green snaped into the front of the lens. Les had converted many Stein's over to 8 perf VV... except the one I bought from him which has the three pin movement and had been converted by someone else. The normal copnversions don't have the aperature in the correct location as per the reg pins... they are offset from each other by one perf. Les told me that William Fox started Stein Camera Co. in New York State because of some conflict of interest with Mitchell Camera in which he was also the controling stock holder. Do you know anything about this...

Thanks,
Mark