Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Info on Automation System??

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Posted by Sean Kapp (Member # 4839) on 06-21-2008, 11:45 PM:

Greetings all, I have been reading for a while and this is my first post.

We recently reopened opened the former Columbiana Cinema in Columbiana OH after a lengthy year and a half remodel after our owner purchased the theater.

To this point we have been bypassing the automation system because the former owners staff took every thing that wasn't attached to the building and we have no clue how to use it. They took all manuals to every thing in the place.

The fail safe is marked Xetron. That is all we have. Here are the pictures of the control panel and the failsafe.

If any one can provide any information on this unit, it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-21-2008, 11:50 PM:

Hey, Sean. That looks like a Raven/Rentec/Film Systems unit, but I could be mistaken. Difficult to tell for certain without more pictures or info.

The failsafe is irrelevant.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-21-2008, 11:51 PM:

Hey Sean, welcome to the board. Can't help you except to say you probably need to upload those images here, not link offsite like that. Click here to upload an image (it's the link next to the Preview Post button).

Posted by Sean Kapp (Member # 4839) on 06-22-2008, 12:01 AM:

Thanks for the heads up on the pics David! I edited my original post.

What other pics would be most helpful for you guys? I can take any thing that could help you guys out tomorrow afternoon.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-22-2008, 12:24 AM:

The automation looks like it was built in a garage. I've seen more professional high school shop class work. What is the difference between START and SHOW START? Why isn't there a SHOW STOP? I would be afraid to press SHOW START if it could never be stopped.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-22-2008, 12:55 AM:

Start probably rolls the motor and fires the lamp.

Show start probably opens the douser and (god forbid this hunk of junk can actually do this), open the curtains.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-22-2008, 05:51 AM:

Oh yes, I forgot you can't have a show without curtains.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-22-2008, 09:12 AM:

Show us the INSIDE of that beast! There are a number of people in Ohio who built credible, but simple, automations. Louis

Posted by Sean Kapp (Member # 4839) on 06-22-2008, 06:42 PM:

Here are the pictures of the inside of the controller

Unit is marked with a Hi-Tech Theater Equipment S/N sticker (image 2)

Right side terminals include:
Motor
Motor
Xenon
Xenon
Exciter
Exciter
House Lights N.C.
House Lights Com
House Light N.O.
DOuser Open
Douser Com
Douser Closed
Ground

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 06-22-2008, 06:48 PM:

Oh God....it's a Hi-Tech.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 06-22-2008, 06:53 PM:

quote: Sean Kapp
Greetings all, I have been reading for a while and this is my first post.

Welcome Sean. Disregard the negative comments by those smart-ass jerks...we ALL get a lot of heat here! You'll find this site a tough room filled with knowledgeable folks. Don't take it personally. Enjoy! [Smile]

Again welcome.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 06-22-2008, 08:28 PM:

Of course! Hi-Tech... they are/were out of Florida. Not much to their stuff; pretty fundamental, bare-bones controllers. As I recall, they were fairly reliable for just that reason. Carmike had a lot of them. The only problem I recall (on the larger units, not yours) was they used real chintzy push buttons, which had a tendency to fall apart.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-22-2008, 09:04 PM:

Hello Sean,

Welcome to the smartest sit on the WEB.

There is nothing wrong with relay control systems. Properly specified relays can give many years of trouble free service. A little research into the circuitry could easily yield a working control system for more contemporary use.

There are two dry contact systems, house lights and douser (Changeover momentary contact)

I might guess that the Motor and Xenon are separate so you could start the motor to run down the leader. Pressing stop does just that. Start Show would start the motor and turn on the Xenon and then the douser will open and the exciter lamp would be energized. House lights would also dim upon pressing the start show button.

If you have a clear closeup of the circuit board we might be able to see what the metal foil Que's are able to control. At least one might raise the house lights for the credits and the other might stop the projector, turn off the lamp and close the douser.

The fail safe system could do the equivalent of pressing the Stop button.

Although it is relatively simple, this box could safely run a show with little intervention from the operator.

KEN

Posted by Sean Kapp (Member # 4839) on 06-22-2008, 11:33 PM:

Thanks to all that have responded, positive and negative!

This equipment all came with the theater. We are continuing to learn all the ends and outs of every thing that came with the purchase of the building. Any thing that has been found to not be up to our owners standard (and he has really high standards) has been or is slated to be replaced. The auditorium was gutted down to the bare walls and floor and redone from square one. A New retractable screen (we also host live theater from time to time) and sound system was installed. We really didn't care for the sound that we were getting with the processor that was in place with the purchase. We just switched to a DTS system and couldn't be happier. Currently we are working on a mini surround system for our cry/vip room located on the 2nd floor.

I will work with one of our other staff members who has better digital gear to get the close ups of the circuit board of the controller. I should have it for posting sometime tomorrow evening!

Posted by Sean Kapp (Member # 4839) on 06-23-2008, 06:58 PM:

Inside close ups...

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 06-23-2008, 08:10 PM:

Sean,
Based on what I see, you are not controlling lights or sound (except exciter) in this unit. You should just need 1 cue at the end of the film to kill the sound and shut the douser before it tails out.

It could be as simple as the start button starts the motor and fires the lamp, then when the first frame hits, you either have a cue, or you hit the "Show Start" button to open the douser and turn on the exciter. Then an ending cue, or you manually hit the "Show Stop" button to shut the douser and kill the exciter.

Hi-Tech did some custom boxes based on different needs. This could be one, or it could just be one of their first basic models. Just looks custom because there are no manual switches on it.

Rick

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-23-2008, 08:54 PM:

It still looks far more advanced than the Christie AM3 Basic automation that is in 2 of my auditoriums. For some reason when you press stop, the sound doesn't switch to non-sync until at least 8 seconds have passed. Incredibly stupid.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-23-2008, 09:38 PM:

Well Joe...the AM-3 was designed in a day when exciter lamps were used to turn the sound on and off (for film)...as such, when you press STOP...the exciter relay drops out but since you have red-readers (and they are apparantly hooked such that they are on)...the sound keeps going.

One shouldn't judge a piece of equipment designed in a different era based on today's needs. It is more of an indication of how one's needs have changed and perhaps a more suitable automation should be installed.

Steve

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 06-23-2008, 10:17 PM:

Sean,

Thanks for the closeup photos of your controller. It appears that the input section of the system runs on low voltage supplied by the small transformer in the lower left of the circuit board.

The House Light Relay is missing entirely from this board. Since there are no wires connected to that set of terminals, we might conclude that they were not ever used.

The douser relay is controlled through a resistance capacitor time circuit. This makes that relay only operate for a second so as not to burn out the changeover coils.

If the unit is totally inoperative, check the fuse located beside the transformer. It may be burned open or there may be a circuit defect causing the fuse to blow.

What are your plans for operating this projection equipment? With the house lights not operated by this controller, you would not be able to remotely start the show nor would you want to without someone there to check that everything is properly operating and the picture is in focus.

KEN

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-23-2008, 11:29 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
perhaps a more suitable automation should be installed.

Why on Earth would we do that? We like having 4 CNA-100's and two AM3's. We love double-cuing each print. We love having the worst, least capable automation in our large giant screen auditorium. Anyway they had the chance to install a better automation, but for some bizarre reason they chose to install the AM3... only about 3 months ago or so (before I started there).

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-24-2008, 12:19 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
For some reason when you press stop, the sound doesn't switch to non-sync until at least 8 seconds have passed. Incredibly stupid.

Yeah, we used to have an AM-5 automation that did that too. I guess it had something to do with the cam, but it was still stupid.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-24-2008, 03:54 AM:

Criticizing how people use automation, and for what reason, is pointless. Your reasons and criteriae are probably not mine. If the system in question has a failsafe, that (for many) is good enough, and more than some have.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-24-2008, 05:16 AM:

I hope you're not talking to me, Jack. We have lots of Bollywood movies with intermissions that require us to stop the projector and run our ass off over to the sound processor to press Non-Sync so they don't have to listen to the movie sound slow down. There's no way we can be fast enough so they always hear just a bit of slow down no matter what. Whether other theaters have failsafes or not is of no concern to me. If that is good enough for some, then perhaps they are in the wrong business altogether. There is no reason an automation like this should be used in this day and age with modern equipment (ie: reverse scan LEDs) and modern audiences who expect us to give them a better show than they can get at home.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-24-2008, 06:13 AM:

Joe: AM-3. jumper the motor "out" wire to "exciter in" and power the red led power supply from "exciter out". It will then "act" like an exciter lamp. As regards non sync (I assume a processor) I usually add 2 110v relays across the changeover to switch from non-sync to digital or SR. Yes, you still get the 8 second delay, but film sound cuts off clean.

Alternatively, use the "stop" light to hold a non sync relay closed. Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-24-2008, 06:14 AM:

Joe, your techs could always wire your LEDs to turn on/off as the exciter lamp did...this would solve the run-down problem. You could also slug your films too with such products as "Black Hole" from JacRoe (endorsed by Brad Miller, no less) so they won't hear the run down.

Steve

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-24-2008, 06:29 AM:

I'm only at the theater 2-3 days a week, and I haven't had any time to look at the automation yet. I was just thinking of wiring the CHANGEOVER CLOSE to NON SYNC and calling it a day, but again I've had no time to look at it. For some reason this automation also shuts off the slide projector whenever the motor switch is on. Probably a similar workaround was applied there for some other reason, but the other AM-3 we have doesn't do this.

Yes, I want some full coat mag or whatever. Scratch that. I NEED some. However I think it might be hard for me to obtain unless I buy it myself.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-24-2008, 07:45 AM:

I hate hate hate automations that are configured to switch the processor between non-sync and film sound. The music should fade in and out, not abruptly switch on or off. (This assumes a CD player that simply repeats all day, rather than something manually controlled.)

What I would want in a multiplex is something like this: motor start engages mute (with fade time set to a few seconds) on the processor, then the processor switches to 05 (or whatever format is appropriate) at a reduced "trailer level" when the changeover opens. At feature start, I'd want a sound cue that switches to digital (if available and if film has digital track) and increases the fader setting (or toggles local/remote fader). At the end of the show, I'd want mute to be engaged at changeover close, and then format 60 to be selected when the failsafe drops.

Why is this not the standard configuration? Would anyone running a show manually just hit a format button without fading out the music first?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-24-2008, 09:25 AM:

Scott...the majority of theatres will indeed just press the other format and kill the music instantly. Or in typical Christie Console theatres (they love to ground negative)...you get to hear the "zap" over the sound first as the lights fade...and then the abrupt switch from music to film.

The Panastereo CSP1200 always cross-faded the music to film and vice-versa (with two different fade rates programmable).

Naturally with more sophisticated automations, one can do more elaborate crossfades and fader control. The Panalogic CA2000 and the Christie/Pennywise/Kinoton CA21/EMK-1 can program in different fader levels at different points in the program (and I'm sure others can as well).

However...the more sophisticated an automation the more you need an operator that knows how to take advantage of the features. One problem I've seen with automations like the CA2000 is that they can press play/start and stop and such...but changing a program is just beyond them. Fortunately, it can store 10 programs (the CA21 can hold 6).

By and large what I see in most computerized automated theatres are two programs...one for Flat and one for Scope...generally set up by the installer or the company person that is in charge of such stuff.

One neat thing about the CA2000 is that if you adjust the volume during the show...it will ask you if you want the new volume to be a permanent setting...if you select okay...then next show it will return to that volume in that part of the programming.

If you like to code...the CA2000 is the best. That is...it allows you to make a program comprised of subroutines. Thus you could create the crossfade you like from non-sync to film...complete with what formats you want to involve...volume levels...timing...you name it. Then store that as a subroutine that can be called on any program.

Steve

[ 06-24-2008, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-24-2008, 10:24 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
What I would want in a multiplex is something like this: motor start engages mute (with fade time set to a few seconds) on the processor, then the processor switches to 05 (or whatever format is appropriate) at a reduced "trailer level" when the changeover opens.

Speaking of which... does anyone know why the CP65 has such a short fade? All 3 of mine drop in about half a second or less... not that I use that feature anymore. Old caps?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-25-2008, 06:02 AM:

The cp-65 is a MUTE. It is not a fader. Later, on some cp-500's the mute was converted to a fader by slowing it down. Louis

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-25-2008, 08:15 PM:

I feel your pain Joe. There is simply no excuse for anyone not to be installing CA21s in every application. There is no other system out there that can do everything needed currently and unforeseen things into the future.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-25-2008, 09:27 PM:

I know!!! I bet you could rig up a CA21 to automatically flush a toilet at regular intervals. Not kidding.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-26-2008, 01:46 AM:

Easy. You can come up with something harder than that.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-26-2008, 03:10 AM:

Ummm.... maybe build a highway whenever Dolby Digital is enabled?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-26-2008, 04:14 AM:

It's been done. You can do better.

Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 06-28-2008, 02:26 PM:

Question, Joe: Are your CNA-100's programmable? Because I have CNA-150's at one location, and what I've done for Bollywood intermissions is to insert a ten-minute program of trailers, and program extra cue points to turn the lights up during it. Even without programmable automations, I'd still recommend cobbling together something to fill in the intermission, rather than having to muck about with stopping and restarting the projector (one of my projectionists is using expired Screenvision rolling-stock ads, a tactic I'm considering myself).

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-28-2008, 05:00 PM:

I could do that, I suppose. However the auditoriums we run the Bollywood stuff is never the CNA100s. The CNA100 "Intermission" cue shuts the douser and switches to non-sync right away, but it continues motoring forever for some reason which cannot be explained. I wish those things had a start cue as well.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-28-2008, 09:25 PM:

I wired one of the FM35 cues to the panic stop on my TA10s, and this is what stops the motor between shows at my drive-in.