Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Wall*e where should i cut the 5th reel ?

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Posted by Rene Ferron (Member # 4674) on 06-26-2008, 06:05 PM:

I'm putting Wall*E together as i'm typing this and the 5th reel is really dark at the end... where should i cut it ?

1- Where there is a yellow line/dot ?
2- At the last visible square ?

Input would be appreciated within a few minutes, thx.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-26-2008, 06:22 PM:

There are 24 frames from the last changover dot, so count from there. If the film is totally dark and you can't see the frames, hold up another length of film with frames to compare. Don't go by that last visable frame.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-26-2008, 07:20 PM:

Didn't I read somewhere here there is a 'last frame' marking on the print?

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 06-26-2008, 08:07 PM:

Yep. All of our reels had a big arrow with "Cut Here" on all the tails.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 06-26-2008, 08:11 PM:

Jake Lafree said this on the FI&TA forum:

quote:
Some of the "Cut Here" marks are incorrect (at least on my 3 prints). Either they are a half sprocket off or 1 full sprocket off.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 06-26-2008, 08:44 PM:

I just finished building our print. All of the tails have a "Cut Here" mark (but only reel 4 and 5 end in black) and the head of reel 6 also has the cut here mark. However, if you cut exactly at the tip of the "Cut Here" arrow, you'll be 1 perforation/sprocket off. Since we have a frame counter, I just went out to the tail and then back to the cut point to verify where to cut.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-26-2008, 09:47 PM:

How unfortunate [Frown]

Anyone know who runs projection.pixar.com? Someone should tell them and get it updated with this info. [Maybe Tal, you know?]

Speaking of which, in the checkframe section, they give footage counts for reels and for heads and tails, but they're a bit perplexing. For instance, for R5:

quote: REEL 5

Footage: 1665'+6
Head: 16'+4
Reel 5 - Head Tail: 84'+6

Surely there aren't really 84 feet of tail? (most other reels have numbers like 9', 13', etc.) Is that conveivably the length of the final scene on that reel? And so it's a minute-long "take"?

--jhawk

Posted by Bryan M. Montgomery (Member # 4412) on 06-26-2008, 10:10 PM:

Yep, the "cut here" arrows are one perf off, dont trust 'em!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-27-2008, 01:54 AM:

quote: John Walsh
There are 24 frames from the last changover dot

Actually it is 18 unless Wally is special.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 06-27-2008, 02:16 AM:

Ive seen both. The print of Shark Tale we're playing right now for the kids matinee has 24.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 06-27-2008, 10:02 AM:

Late last nite (just before 11pm-Pacific) I got a FAX from Pixar stating that the "cut here" arrows could be off "a perf or TWO". I'd already figured this out for myself, since I built up a preview print earlier in the week.

I found my cut points using an editing synchonizer (Similar to a frame counter, but much bigger sprocket wheels and a lot easier on the film)and working backwards from a good frame on the tail leader. That way I didn't have to handle any of the the "projectable" part of the film.

Here's a quote from the FAX:
"The tip of the cut here arrow is one or two perfs away from the frame line as indicated on a reel with a bright first frame. Remember, all frame lines in black are one or two perfs away from the tip of the cut here arrow"

[ 06-28-2008, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Jim Cassedy ]

Posted by Sean Kapp (Member # 4839) on 06-27-2008, 11:33 AM:

From http://projection.pixar.com/

quote:
IMPORTANT INFORMATION REGARDING PRINTS OF WALL•E [26june 10pm]

An issue has come to our attention concerning the "Cut Here" line on each reel. All "Cut Here" leaders on WALL•E should be cut on the frame line not the tip of the "Cut Here" arrow. The "Cut Here" arrow is 1 perf away from the frame-line as indicated on a reel with a bright first frame. We are really sorry if there is any confusion.
Remember all frame lines in black are 1 perf away from the tip of the "Cut Here" Arrow.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 06-27-2008, 12:05 PM:

I called Technicolor about 7:00pm PST to let them know about this problem. I don't know if others called, but I'm impressed that they sent out a broadcast fax so quickly.

Posted by Laurie Higgins (Member # 4843) on 06-27-2008, 12:46 PM:

"IMPORTANT INFORMATION REGARDING PRINTS OF WALL•E [26june 10pm]

An issue has come to our attention concerning the "Cut Here" line on each reel. All "Cut Here" leaders on WALL•E should be cut on the frame line not the tip of the "Cut Here" arrow. The "Cut Here" arrow is 1 perf away from the frame-line as indicated on a reel with a bright first frame. We are really sorry if there is any confusion.
Remember all frame lines in black are 1 perf away from the tip of the "Cut Here" Arrow."

---Man this would have been nice to know last night. Also, as hard as I tried, I couldn't see the freaking frame lines because the film was so dark so I just trusted the cut here arrows.

So yeah, my print just went out of frame, yay!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-27-2008, 02:11 PM:

Maybe I am old fashioned but before I make a cut I use the frame finder (aka footage counter) to verify the frame line I am splicing on and if booth staff did that father than relying on other things there would not be a problem

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-27-2008, 02:12 PM:

Is this another prank by the "let's go digital!" people?

Posted by Laurie Higgins (Member # 4843) on 06-27-2008, 02:26 PM:

"Maybe I am old fashioned but before I make a cut I use the frame finder (aka footage counter) to verify the frame line I am splicing on and if booth staff did that father than relying on other things there would not be a problem"

---alas, the only frame counter I have are my eyeballs. Cause I could have used one last night. [Smile]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-27-2008, 02:28 PM:

Laurie, please use the quote button next time.

The labs need to knock these weird cut marks off. If they want to do a cut here or a last frame of action marking, they should put "CUT HERE" written in large letters inside of a 4 perforation white frame so there can not possibly be any confusion.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-27-2008, 03:04 PM:

...or just print frame lines; why is this so difficult?

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 06-27-2008, 03:14 PM:

Frank, I have always wondered why they can't just print visible frame lines on every print and on trailers - especially at the heads and tails. It seems like something so basic to ensuring good presentation.

At the same time, I've often wondered why it's sometimes so difficult to get the correct running time and aspect ratio. You would think the studios would make a practice of making this vital information widely available. For Wall•E, I actually had to call my exhibitor relations person to get the correct time.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-27-2008, 03:26 PM:

I am sure Mr. Drive-In (of Rodeo Drive-In in Washington) over at the exhibitors_screening_room wouldn't mind me sharing his handy, ingenius and easily constructed solution to a footage counter or synchronizer when you absolutely, positively need a frame-line finder.

Justin, it's not for lack of trying. The SMPTE recommended pratices have been in place for years suggesting that all that information -- aspect ratio, title, sound format information should be in both the image area as well as in the soundtrack area. The fact is, the labs don't always follow all these practices fully.

Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 06-27-2008, 05:01 PM:

For those booths who do not have a frame counter, why? You can probably get one for a few hundred bucks used. Are theater budgets so tight that you can't afford to spend a little money on something that will take all the guesswork out of building, thus saving time and improving presentation, and that will last longer than your booth will be running film? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I use my frame counter religiously and have only had two off splices in my year in projection, one in my first build up (in the trailers for a scope movie) and one in my first flat movie. As a result, I completely ignored the Cut Here marks, because I was so confident in my measurements that I would sooner believe the lab to be wrong.

Measure twice, cut once, measure twice more.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-27-2008, 05:53 PM:

Of course you are right Galen, any professional booth SHOULD have a footage-counter, although those units really are abit overkill for the function of simply finding frame lines (and a very expensive over-kill at that). And the synchronizers are even more over-the-top. No need for all that "stuff" just to verify frame-lines, although I must say the synchronizers with those big sprocket wheels are very easy to use. The nice thing also about synchronizers is that they have open sprocket wheels so when you slide them over the rewind table view light, it illuminates the film on it.

I've always thought someone could make a pretty penny manufacturing a simple frame-line finder without all that expensive gearing which is part of footage counters. It could be easily made out of plastic, even include a built-in light for even better visualizing.

Posted by Chad M Calpito (Member # 3736) on 06-27-2008, 05:55 PM:

In my booth, we have two Frame Finders and, of course, I use them religiously. So, Galen, you are soooooo correct on that. [Big Grin]

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-27-2008, 07:32 PM:

Just saw the pixar projection website.

Absolutely fascinating. This is doing film right, and I'm happy to hear that QC suggestions, it's just what I always say to my projectionist. I thougt I was an alien... [Frown]

Marco

Posted by Jonathan Bodge (Member # 4072) on 06-27-2008, 08:11 PM:

Gordon you are old fashioned. And that's OK in my book.

Posted by Justin Gorka (Member # 3727) on 06-27-2008, 09:16 PM:

As I'm in the UK and half our prints(from experience sctratched to buggary) are going to come from you lot......your debate over fames does not fill me with glee!

Posted by Ben Goodman (Member # 4770) on 06-28-2008, 12:21 AM:

That print was not fun to put together. We use something very similar to the picture above in our booths-- basically a screwdriver with an intermittent sprocket on the end. Takes only a few seconds and it's a lot simpler to use than a frame counter from my experience.

Either way, I don't understand why they can't put frame lines on the picture. And for that matter, I don't understand why they don't have any sort of marking at the beginning of the head leader-- the head of R5 is totally black too!

That actually leads me to a general question, though-- how many theatres screen their prints to an employee before showing them to the public? We screen every single print we build up to make sure there are no mis-splices, incorrect formats, or anything like that.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-28-2008, 12:24 AM:

We screened Wall-E because the film arrived on Wednesday, but it's not always possible for us to pre-screen. We receive many prints on opening day, too late in the day to build and then screen before the first showing. I've had situations where I've still been spinning film onto the platter AFTER the first show is supposed to have started!

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 06-28-2008, 12:46 AM:

We do a dry run of every thing we can, but during the summer when I'm working open to close a lot of days, there is no way I'm going to stay until 4:00am checking movies when I have to be there at 11:30 the next morning. But since I build the majority of our prints, I don't worry about it. I know how to find frame lines and I almost never have any thing out of frame. I do try to screen 100% of the prints that my assistants build up.

Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 06-28-2008, 06:31 AM:

I'm the same as Gordon, we don't have a frame counter but I've made my own. I just took some clear excess film and made some counters. One is 40 frames and another is 20, just find a frame line and go back until you get to where you need to go. Never had a problem yet and never had an out of frame print in my life.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 06-28-2008, 10:39 AM:

I too wonder why labs have gotten away from printing decent frame lines on films.

Back when everything was on acetate film stock, Kodak used to print a little "-" every 4 perforations. This made it very easy to determine where a frame line was.

The "-" was more often than not actually ON the frame line, but all you had to do is find one good frame line within the reel you were working on, then make a mental note where the frame line was in relation to the "-".

Then you'd go back to the spot on the reel that you weren't sure of and you could easily and acuurately determine the position of an 'invisible' frame line.

Posted by John Walsh (Member # 168) on 06-28-2008, 02:58 PM:

Sometimes I wish I knew who the person was that picked changover points. Most of the time they're OK, but every once in a while they are poorly thought out. I remember one c/o where the camera was panning very quickly, almost in a circle during a parade with short shots edited in (4-6 frames). With the small c/o marks, you couldn't see them.

Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 06-28-2008, 03:07 PM:

In the case of Wall-E, I suspect the film editing was something of an afterthought. In other words, much of the editor's attention was focused on how the movie would play digitally.

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 06-28-2008, 03:29 PM:

One easy trick I use is to keep out a head or tail that you've cut from a different reel that had nice, bright frames at the cut point. When you then come across a dark cut point, simply lay the previous piece over it, matching up with some common point (i.e. the '3' on the heads). As far as I know, the non-picture printing on the heads / tails should be the same distance from the image from reel to reel.

Posted by Michael Dolan (Member # 4808) on 06-29-2008, 01:55 AM:

quote:
---Man this would have been nice to know last night. Also, as hard as I tried, I couldn't see the freaking frame lines because the film was so dark so I just trusted the cut here arrows.

I agree I don't have a frame counter or a decent MUT withdecent lite so I trusted the cut here splices!!!!! Not to mention I didn't get the film in my hand till friday at 7:30 p.m. and had to show it at 8:45

Long story short I had two miss splices now that is irritating as ^%##@!!!!

Anyone want to give away a frame counter? LOL

Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 06-29-2008, 06:46 AM:

Just do what I said and you will be fine. If you don't have any extra clear film laying around, just take the scope green band from a trailer and use that.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 06-29-2008, 01:02 PM:

Not sure why this was such a big deal. The arrow ends at start of a sprocket hole, not in the space between them. It indicates the last hole in the frame. Every cut was between the next two holes, so no variation there.

Once you got that figured out, this was easy.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 06-29-2008, 01:23 PM:

quote: Michael Cunningham
One easy trick I use is to keep out a head or tail that you've cut from a different reel that had nice, bright frames at the cut point. When you then come across a dark cut point, simply lay the previous piece over it, matching up with some common point (i.e. the '3' on the heads). As far as I know, the non-picture printing on the heads / tails should be the same distance from the image from reel to reel.

That's what I have done for years. Never had a frame counter in any booth I have been in.

Posted by Patrick Dunn (Member # 3333) on 06-29-2008, 01:50 PM:

Why spend hundreds of dollars on a frame counter? I just take a strip of clear leader, line one frame line up on a frame you can see. There's your frame counter.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 06-29-2008, 05:28 PM:

Because they are $20-$50 on EBay (get a sync block instead, they are MUCH MUCH better), way easier to use than other methods (clear film, blotter, etc.), much more versatile (you can actually use them for footage measurements!), and they look cool.

--jhawk

Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 06-29-2008, 05:31 PM:

If using clear film works for you and you aren't mucking it up in the dirt, great. Personally, I find a frame counter extremely easy to use and reliable, and I don't see the big deal with a few hundred bucks. I have no problem asking for the theater to routinely spend that kind of money on stuff for booth if I think it will improve presentation or ease my Thursday night work load. I mean, it isn't like most projectionists are getting paid anywhere near their value, you should at least expect decent equipment to work with.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-30-2008, 02:59 PM:

Oh, "FLIP" - just take an old sprocket, put the needed framelines between the teeth and on both ends you make a cross were the framelines meet.

Then, all you have to do is roll the sprocket through the film (making sure that the film doesn't hop out of the sprocket as you roll the sprocket), then mark the film where what you need to do whatever, and you got a great little frame marking device that wont scratch film and it didn't cost anything.

This trick comes from the old carbon arc days...

-Monte

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-30-2008, 06:06 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
(making sure that the film doesn't hop out of the sprocket as you roll the sprocket)

That's the part which is a pain in the ass.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-30-2008, 06:14 PM:

Add some rollers to hold it there.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 06-30-2008, 06:25 PM:

Then I'm holding the sprocket (or li'l stick that the sprocket is on), the rollers and the film. Don't have 3 hands, man. Nobody had better bid on the next 35mm frame counter or sync block that shows up on eBay or you will be bidding against me and that will not be looked kindly upon!!!

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 06-30-2008, 06:51 PM:

quote: John Wilson
Add some rollers to hold it there.

...and then you've basically got a frame counter. [Big Grin]

Well, without the counting part. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-30-2008, 07:31 PM:

Nah, you roll the sprocket in the hand with your fingers keeping the film registered on the sprocket.

Aint that all tough....