Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton FP20 skate/runner

This is topic Kinoton FP20 skate/runner in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009389

Posted by Jeff Else (Member # 4063) on 07-04-2008, 02:49 AM:

is there a better replacement skate/runner situation available for the Kinoton FP20 than the brittle black plastic ones? I have heard that there are white nylon ones that wear less easily. Anyone know if they exist, who makes them and where to get them?

Posted by Tim Asten (Member # 4051) on 07-04-2008, 06:01 AM:

Hi Jeff.

As far as I am aware, both the white and black skates are made of the same material called Delrin. Kinoton use the material because Delrin is very kind to the film. We used to be supplied with the white skates but now we have been getting the black ones and white runners, but I cannot tell any difference in performance between the two. With careful use and gate alignment they should last for months. You mention the word 'brittle'. Sounds like you are having reliability problems with the skates. Perhaps you could explain further?

Take care, Tim.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2008, 06:03 AM:

The nylon skates cause unnecessary film wear. Stick to the black delrin ones. As far as the runners, I greatly prefer the metal runners, but they are expensive.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-04-2008, 08:37 AM:

We have grind customers getting YEARS out of the black delrin skates...they do use Film Guard though.

The only other skates available are the brown ones...they are hard, brittle, and WILL break if drop them. The only alleged value is their longevity (presumming you don't drop them) as they are harder.

For runner strips, you have Delrin (white), Novotex (brown fiber) and Metal (metal). All of them have people to declare them their favorites.

I have noted that when using non-Kinoton lamphouses that the delrin runners get chalky and brittle around the aperture...most notably Christie light, which is rather hot. Strong will do it too but to a lesser degree. We are still getting a long life out of them but I've debated about switching to Novotex runners for those theatres.

With Kinoton light...no problems...even up to 7KW on the white delrin runners and I have little doubt that we could go up to 10K with them.

Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2008, 02:32 PM:

Novotex runners do not solve that problem Steve. Switch to steel runners and the problems vanish.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-04-2008, 05:03 PM:

I dunno Brad...I've known many a FP20 with Novotex runners with Super Lume-Xes behind them without problems. I don't doubt that the Christie's will still do damage as I've found them to be notably hotter.

Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2008, 06:01 PM:

The Novotex runners are like that orange skate...they cause film shedding. The BEST combination is steel runners with the black delrin skates. If steel runners are out of the budget, then the white delrin runners are ok, but you have to change them out regularly and from my own observations do not produce as steady of an image and definitely cause more film wear over the steel. (This is evidenced by SRD error rates increasing with the delrin, where the steel runners the error rates stay the same. Also once I installed the steel runners over the delrin, the shedding was virtually eliminated. I will never understand this industry's fetish for delrin.)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-04-2008, 10:03 PM:

Brad, I've NEVER had a problem with Delrin increasing error rates on Dolby Digital...never. As for steadiness...again...never a problem with steadiness on delrin.

I'm interested to try the steel though.

Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-04-2008, 10:07 PM:

The red/orange colored runners blatantly cause SRD damage. The white delrin is minor BUT if you look carefully you will see that the steel is gentler on the film. Plus they NEVER have to be replaced, since they don't wear, and they can't melt either.

The steel runners and black delrin skate combination should run for years without having to change out that skate (which is amazingly cheap anyway).

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-04-2008, 10:14 PM:

Most, if not all of our FP20/26/28s have the Novotex runners...none have Dolby Digital problems. None have any particular shedding problems. Seriously.

Steve

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 07-04-2008, 10:40 PM:

(I'm suprised Mark hasn't chimed in on this...) [Razz]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-05-2008, 09:37 AM:

I thought that the whole point of the Delrin parts was that the Delrin would wear down over time instead of the film. Is this not the case?

The Kinotons that I've operated have all had the Delrin trap parts and the black or white skates; all have been super-gentle on film and run old, beat-up prints easily.

How does one know when it is time to replace the skate?

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 07-05-2008, 10:35 AM:

How do I know when to replace the skate and runners? The runners are the plastic white kind, and they seem fine right now. The skate (black derlin) has just a tiny bit of wear inside the edge of lower curved area where the intermittent is. They have about 6-9 months of use on them.

Also, when running a new print, the first few shows shed a lot around the ceramic lateral rollers. Is that an alignment issue?

FP50D projector and console
Film Guard is used about 70% of the time. (One of our 3 operators really doesn't like to use it)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-05-2008, 01:21 PM:

Ok, I'll chime in.... [sleep]

Posted by Jeff Else (Member # 4063) on 07-05-2008, 06:52 PM:

how much are the metal runners and where can i get them? I assume they outlast the skates and therefore don't have to be changed when the skate is changed....

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 07-05-2008, 07:56 PM:

The steel runners mentioned are not needed for Kinoton's.I find that the white Nylon type do the job well and last as do the black skates.I also don't have any issues with the SR.D track error rates caused by excessive wearing of the runner strips.I have mentioned the steel runner strips to my Kinoton Dealers here and they have not heard of steel runners strips and said that they are not available in Australia and also again not needed.As for the life of the skates I usually get 18 months sometimes longer and as for the runner strips 12 months as they are reversable. Kinoton's only need a little pressure on the skate to keeep the picture steady and if set up correctly very little wear.