This is topic What's up with prints from India?? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-13-2008, 02:16 AM:
 
We tend to play a lot of prints from India for one reason or another and I have noticed a few things:

-They do not believe in reels over there in India.

-Sometimes they don't even believe in cores... or keeping the
heads and tails!

-They are always musicals or at the very least have a bunch of songs with everyone dancing. This is mandatory.

-They are always way too long and have an intermission.

-They often use subtitles to translate English-speaking characters to English (complete with different phrasing).

-They are always scope (this is the only thing I approve of).

My question is this: Why do they hate reels so much... and cores? I get the impression that they really don't care much about presentation over there. Also, why must they keep renting our theater? Why can't they build their own "Theatre India" or something? They are always trying to get us to lower our prices and demanding more showtimes and screens. We should raise the prices having to deal with core-less prints.
 

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Posted by Stan Gunn (Member # 554) on 07-13-2008, 05:09 AM:
 
Joe,I also have shown many Bollywood films, and what you say is the norm for all Bollywood films, this is the way they like them.
Also the format is based around the taboos of their faiths.

The films have a very short screening life, and I suppose this shows up in the way they are treated.
A new print from the lab does have heads and tails comes in cans but mainly without cores.

AND as you say are very long, and the organizers always want you to pay them to show their films.

Stan
 

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Posted by Christian Appelt (Member # 1067) on 07-13-2008, 01:14 PM:
 
Shipping on cores instead of reels is quite common outside the US. I never saw anything but US studio prints and of course 70mm shipped on spools (except those 2x6000ft. Italian style "Cinebox" cases that take two plastic spools).

When I had to handle lots of prints from India years ago, I noticed that almost every print (not Bollywood, but mainly arthouse and classic films) was dripping from oil. Oil all over the prints, taking away so much light that some older b&w films looked like flickering silents printed too dark.

During a festival, I asked an older director why there was so much oil on these prints. He answered that many theatres had metal reels so bent and damaged that the only way to keep (acetate) prints from tearing was to smear oil on the side of the film before it was put on 2000ft reels. This procedure kept the film edge from sticking to the bent reel flange, but of course after one or two shows the oil was all over the image area.

First I thought he was making fun of me, but later a DP from India said it was true. Luckily, that practice seems to have stopped with the introcuction of Polyester stock.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-13-2008, 02:15 PM:
 
It is only in the US that we seem to not be able to handle film that comes in on cores. What's the big deal? It just takes a split reel and you are in business. OK, given the way we treat prints here, it's probably a good thing we don't ship prints on cores to let the underpaid splice monkeys have at them; they can barely handle prints on reels. Shipping on cores would probably quadruple the "Hey You Suck" thread.

Get with the culture, Joe -- the musical numbers in Bollywood films, as well as the intermissions are the traditional way Indian films are made and have been for decades. That audience EXPECTS to see films produced with those traditional, cultural elements. You leave them out of a Bollywood movie and you would have very unhappy audiences, not exactly what a producer is going for. It would be like the Met producing an opera and leaving out the arias. And let's not forget, the Bollywood producer is not making his movie to please the western projectionist or the American theatre personnel.

Hey, I never complain when a distributor, Bollywood or otherwise, wants to four-wall my theatre -- sure, he can haggle the rental price all he wants, but I know in the end we get exactly the price we want and it is found money -- we smile all the way to the bank. You won't hear our accountant (or concessions manager) whining that they've got an intermission in their film or wishing they would go build their own theatre instead of renting ours.

[ 07-13-2008, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]
 

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Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 07-13-2008, 02:26 PM:
 
I can handle cores fine. But many bollywood movies arrive as a slop of film in a can, usually with no core. Sometimes I'll see a print come in with a small core, but its clear that the reel had been broken down onto a bigger core at the last theatre. That theatre then.. shall we say "retrieved".. their core.
 

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Posted by Tim Asten (Member # 4051) on 07-13-2008, 03:14 PM:
 
Here in the UK, or at least in our cinema, Bollywood films are nearly always brand new, come on cores, always head out and with each reel containing two reels spliced together. e.g head leader: start part one, tale leader: finish part two.
Tim.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-13-2008, 05:29 PM:
 
I can load up a reel without a core just fine by using one of my cores and putting a bunch of junk film around it. Breaking down without a core is impossible. I cannot punch the core out because the Strong platter/MUT combination wraps so damn tight even when no backtension is applied to the freespinning deck (which is why I never felt the need to install "tension clutches"). It all seems to "third world" to me. Instead I use the tiny trailer cores. I hope this pisses someone in India off because they have pissed me off by shipping without cores which are the only ones I can afford to lose. The prints from the Bollywood region always come on cores and are always new.

Also, it doesn't say much for India's culture if they expect the same crap in every single movie without fail. I was tempted to put a trailer for Brick Lane on one of them.
 

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 07-13-2008, 09:09 PM:
 
It's been about 25 years since I ran Bollywood films, and the situation was the same as Joe describes. Of course, I also ran films from other countries that were not released in the US and the print condition could be the same as the Bollywood film. Some places do have their own theatres. Last time I was in the DC area I discovered Loehman's Plaza in Falls Church is still open (though not advertised) and showing Bollywood movies.

As for Bollywood movies themselves, they are just formula films cranked out by the hundreds each year. They say as much about India's culture as Ma and Pa Kettle or Andy Hardy Movies say about the US or Kung Fu movies say about Hong Kong. Just disposable pop crap, that occasionally transcends the form.

India has its art films, even if Satjiyat Ray is dead. They are about as popular in India as American art films here. That's why you rarely see them.

90% of everything is crap, India just cranks out a greater volume than any other place in the world.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-13-2008, 09:31 PM:
 
Jesus, Joe. Just order some cores and be done with it. Some people on EBay keep selling hundreds of 2" cores, if you're feeling El Cheapo. And yes, there's nothing wrong with adding a coreless print surcharge...

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-13-2008, 10:22 PM:
 
You seem to think that if I order something, I'll get it. Think again. It is very rare and often takes much arguing with the owners. It took over 3 months just to get a friggin' split reel. We are already starting to charge them a "late print" surcharge since they don't seem to like giving us the print until a couple of hours before showtime. Again, the real Bollywood people tend to give us their prints the day before... on cores.

It's not my fault India is a 3rd world country and cannot afford reels or cores.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 07-13-2008, 10:22 PM:
 
I usually get India films with no heads, no tail, no cores dumped in the cans. I just stick a core in the middle and put on a split reel, if it bumps and bangs when I spool it off who cares? If the jerks who own it don't care why should I? When it's done I knock the cores out with a small wooden mallet. No point in leaving them in as John suggests because the next theatre will not put them back---I've left cores in and had the films play here again in a couple weeks and they came back with out the cores. Also the Indian business man who brings the films in says I shouldn't leave the cores in just on principle.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-13-2008, 10:24 PM:
 
I have an incredibly hard time knocking them out since I use STRONG equipment and that stuff wraps tighter than a virgin pussy.
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-13-2008, 10:26 PM:
 
Nah, Joe, I think you could order some cores instead of getting lunch one day, and the stress relief would be worth spending the money out of your own pocket

I'm sorry, Bill, I think it's unequivocally Film Done Wrong to knock out cores. Just because some people do the wrong thing doesn't mean the rest of us should. As projectionists, we should be striving to maintain the best possible standards, even in the face of adversity. It is sad to me that you disagree.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-13-2008, 10:54 PM:
 
I don't pay for my lunch, I steal it from homeless people. Maybe I could steal enough change from them as well?
 

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Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-13-2008, 10:56 PM:
 
Not necessary, Joe. Just ask them for the cores directly. They'll be happy to oblige.

If they claim to not know what you're talking about, that's their subtle way of saying you're not asking them politely enough. In my experience homeless people often have difficulty appreciating sarcasm, unlike the rest of us.

--jhawk
 

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Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 07-13-2008, 11:16 PM:
 
OK, so most of the Bollywood prints I get come core-less too.
I just deal with it. That's part of my job.

I will say this though- There's one India lab I get prints from that are always of stunning quality. I'm talking overall shapness and color almost as good as IB Tech. Much better than almost anything I've seen from a US lab in a long time.

I'm also amused by the variety of shipping containers they arrive in.
Many come in what look like 2nd hand fruit boxes.

Most prints arrive in burlap & wax covered boxes like this:


And some arrive in metal coffin-boxes like this:


What can I say? ...apparantly I'm easily amused
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-13-2008, 11:31 PM:
 
And how do you break down the core-less prints? Building them up is easy. The ones I get in the burlap boxes always have cores, the ones in the can like yours from Hyperbad, India do not. India needs more money so they can afford more things.
 

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Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 07-14-2008, 12:26 AM:
 
Yes, here in the UK most of our prints arrive on cores anyway. It is very rare for us to receive a print on spools.

Most of the Bollywood films we have screened are almost brand new, on cores and with leaders and tails. One of their prints recently arrived without leaders or tails (and this is where you put yourself at the mercy of the previous projectionist) so you keep your fingers crosed that they are in the correct cans! The prints are usually in very good condition and almost always come complete with DTS soundtrack discs.

As has been mentioned earlier, most of the parts are doubled-up, so you have parts 1+2 in one can, parts 3+4 in the next etc. Confusingly, the DTS unit will often refer to part 1+2 as reel 1 and parts 3+4 as reel 2!! After a while, you get the hang of it!

On screen, the prints look great apart from 'flashing' on the top and bottom frameline as each of the orignal negative cuts pass through. The sound quality is usually stunning and overall I find the films quite exciting - they are very pacy (visually and audibly)!
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-14-2008, 01:14 AM:
 
Joe, best thing to do in the face of super cheap owners when they won't buy you something you need to run a show -- like a split reel -- simply say, "Hey man, sorry, this print won't run because it has no reels or hubs and you freaks won't buy the specialized equipment necessary to run it. Now split reel, no show." That's the way I got my SR cards in one booth. One day I just said, "Sorry, we can't run that print because it's got the new SR soundtrack and we don't have the SR cards necessary to play it." We got cards that week. Especially now that dumbass owners have experienced the "cyan crisis," they are familiar with the concept of: "if you don't have this piece of equipment, you can't play that piece of film." If they won't buy you cores, you don't play their coreless prints.

Besides, why can't you wind onto trailer cores? You must have like a trillion of those lying around, no? Don't you have a trailer core keyed thing-a-ma-bob? One of those brass slugs the size of the trailer core with a hole and key in the middle that fits on the rewind spindle and another slot on the outer diameter that the key in the trailer core slides onto? If not, it would be a good thing to either have one machined, or make one out of wood like I've seen. It's just a wooden dowel with a center hole drilled and keyed and the outer diameter keyed as well.

When prints come without a core, I just put the reel on the split reel flange that has the center spindle. The spindle is always smaller than the donut hole in the film, then pack tissue paper into the space between the film hole and the flange spindle -- however much it takes to really pack it tightly. Then just lock on the other flange and bingo -- works like a champ every time. Just rewind a little slower than usual as you get close to the center.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-14-2008, 01:15 AM:
 
On the stunning print quality issue, I remember an anecdote John Pytlak told me at the AMIA conference in '03 or '04. He'd been contacted by a Bollywood DoP who was looking to carry out restoration work on a feature he'd shot back in the '70s. Apparently the standard practice in Indian labs was (and even by the early '00s, still was) to strike all release prints by continuous contacting printing the cut camera negative - no f/g interpos and then dupe neg generations were made at all!

The problem was that this film became so popular that after about 300 prints were made, the cut camera negative was wearing out. So they patched it up, Scotchgarded it and made another few hundred prints. 30 years later, they were getting very poor quality when attempting to print a fine grain preservation master from this negative, because the Scotchgard coating was distorting the image on the dupe. Because Scotchgard is a completely irreversible process, there was nothing which could be done at the time. 5 years later or so I suspect that a 4k scan and then a digital intermediate cleanup would be his best bet. But if the Bollywood prints we're seeing are second generation compared to fourth for most American and European prints, that would certainly explain why they look so great! Effectively, they're all showprints.
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-14-2008, 01:56 AM:
 
Lots of the foreign prints that come thru my booth are much the same case -- very few prints struck and most are one-off EK prints. No need to strike thousands like we do here, where we need 3 or 4 thousand theatres opening all on the same day. Many of these foreign films are released regionally and they ship their prints around for months and even years. Some independents can barely afford an answer print and sometimes they go around personally booking their one or two personal prints. So yah, these are most times one off EK showprints and they look spectacular. Nice to see how good film can look inspite of the digital choir using it as a urinal.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-14-2008, 02:48 AM:
 
Now for the $24 question: Why do they call it Bollywood? Were they purposely attempting to sound like cheap, knock-off scam artists?
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 07-14-2008, 03:47 AM:
 
Because Bombay is the epicentre of India's film industry, hence the conflation of Bombay and Hollywood. The city has since been renamed Mumbai (Bombay was the name originally given to the place by Portuguese settlers in the 17th century and retained by the British: the city was officially renamed in 1995), but the nickname stuck!
 

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Posted by Daniel Ramirez (Member # 4424) on 07-17-2008, 01:56 PM:
 
We show India movies. Yes they do come with and without cores. It was frustrating at first when they did not come with cores. But now I figured out what to do. I have three different sizes of cores. And that does not include the trailer cores. So putting the 'reels' onto the platter is easy. But when you have tear/break them down....well it is easy now. I either use a regular plastic core or a trailer core. And using the ELR Adapter plate makes it easy. As for the duration of the print, yes they don't last for very long. We had one special print that come back from the dead. It was released back in '78. And it was the longes movie that I had ever worked on. 4 1/2hrs long. Have pictures of it.
In our area, they just had a ground breaking ceremony last week to where they are going to build their own mall with a theater in it. We keep advertising it during intermission. And that is another thing. It was very hard in the beginning. We would have to manually stop the projector at intermission. Now we have programmed the automation to stop at intermission.
I've watched their own projectionists build a movie. Their methods are different. I had to tell them where to place cues at.
But we are managing it so far.
 

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Posted by Laurie Higgins (Member # 4843) on 07-18-2008, 04:12 PM:
 
To break them down, if they have core, I have a half reel I put it on and then dump it out into the can. If they don't have cores, I use one of the black plastic cores that trailers and commercials come on and do the same thing.

The reason they come in the film cans is money, if you peel the label the film company has stuck onto the reel can you will see that it is the Kodak can the blank film came to them in. I'm thinking the same for the boxes probably.

Plus they are not always musicals, I can tell you this because we always have at least 1 Bollywood movie at all times.

I can tell you from first hand experience that the way most movies from India are played in America is some private individual (not necessarily part of any film company or theater) will purchase the movie from the Indian film company and then this person will rent theater and show the film. Some times they are waiting just outside your door when the film ends wanting to know how quickly you can break it down so they can run it to the next theater they have rented in the next town. Sometimes they could care less and abandon the film. Like I said in a different post, I have at leat 100 if not more abandon Indian films in my storage space and back hallway.

So the reason that most come with their heads and tails cut is the projectionist prior to you didn't feel like reattaching them . Why they have no cores, that beats me, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, perhaps there core hoarders out there stealing them.

Also, I have on occasion put a commercial inside the core space and built and broken down on to them and then popped them out and into the film can.
 

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Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 07-19-2008, 12:48 AM:
 
I handle 1-3 Indian prints a week, in addition to my normal Hollywood stuff. The ones in Hindi are now handled through traditional booking methods, and are generally uniform in quality: 3" cores for each reel, all in individual cans inside a burlap-covered box (usually two per print). Those are no big deal; a split reel and you're good to go.

It's the rentals (usually in Telegu or Tamil and sometimes Kannada) that are often problematic; those prints are generally very handled, and quite poorly so, by the time they reach us. They are generally without cores, and often lack heads or tails (or, when they have them, some asshat has elected not to attach them to the reel). There will be innumerable repair splices, almost always done with something OTHER than clear splicing tape. I try to return those prints in better shape than I got them in, but time is very frequently a factor; the "print-slingers" (as my erstwhile boss calls them) who rent the theatres for their films are usually anxious to move on to the next town, a la Bill Bixby.
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-19-2008, 06:38 AM:
 
There are four regions for movie production in India. The other outside of Mumbai (Bollywood) use an average print run of 100 - 150. These films including the Bollywood prints are cycled in A,B,C, and mobile cinema locations until the prints are worn out. Based on the producer and foriegn sales arrangement you may get a new or well worn print.
 

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Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 07-19-2008, 03:38 PM:
 

quote: Andy Frodsham

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On screen, the prints look great apart from 'flashing' on the top and bottom frameline as each of the orignal negative cuts pass through.

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The flashing isn't because they are bollywoods, it's beacuse they are shot 'real' anamorphic. You would have the same issue showing American movies that are shot in that way.

You should be able to frame correctly so the the flashes aren't visible. If you can't -you are showing too much heigh on your scope image.

Bollywoods are usually shot "real" anamorphic and not the cheaper 'Super 35' that many hollywood films use these days. Super 35 doesn't have the flashes, "real" scope does.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-19-2008, 05:14 PM:
 
I have had some Indian movies where there were negative splices all over the place, even in the middle of the frame. There were white flashes all over the place with lots and lots of negative dust as well. Oh, and I had to adjust the optical sound head's lateral positioning since it was reading the DTS timecode, and of course they didn't send discs and the print didn't have Dolby Digital. Stupid me forgot to adjust it back before the next showing of a REAL movie.
 

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Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 07-19-2008, 10:21 PM:
 
Heads up, Joe. Indian prints (even the big-name Indian studios) seldom have both DD AND DTS.

Now that my theatres are owned by Adlabs, I'm hoping to get some traction toward changing that. But this is a BIG company.
 

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Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-20-2008, 01:48 AM:
 
Every Bollywood I've built-up myself was in both DTS and Dolby Digital... and I think only a couple came without the disk.

But try finding a Bollywood in SDDS. AFAIK, they don't exist.
 

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Posted by Charles Greenlee (Member # 3856) on 07-21-2008, 11:28 PM:
 
The one I showed at the Wynnsong here in Savannah had SDDS, but neither of the other 2 digital formats. SDDS and analog only. It was a private group of indians that rented No 6, our largest screen, out. They filled it, and concession sales were through the roof. I'm not sure the exact capacity of 6, but I do know it's large enough to require a 6k bulb. I was sad because that projector had BOTH DTS and SR-D readers, but not SDDS. No matter. After a run through our film cleaner, because the film was so nasty, it sounded great, even in analog. Got tipped too. I don't normally get those. I don't even expect them.
 

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Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-22-2008, 12:30 AM:
 
Weird. I was pretty much under the impression that SDDS was something unknown in India.

That said, if I was making a movie and wanted so save a few bucks (while guaranteeing the vast majority of theaters could get my 5.1 mix) I'd skip on SDDS too.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-22-2008, 02:42 AM:
 
Has anyone ever seen a flat movie from India?
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-22-2008, 09:19 AM:
 
In one word Yes
In the early 80's when I worked at a Bollywood Theatre half the titles were flat
Also at that time they were making 70mm prints of some titles
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-22-2008, 09:57 AM:
 
I had a Flat print come in about a month ago.
 

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Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 07-22-2008, 10:05 AM:
 
Yes, Michael, we do constantly fight (sadly, in vain) with the framing knob when screening these films. We do not, however, have any problems with other scope prints (American or otherwise) although I do believe our scope aperure plates have been cut a little too liberally! We are in the process of getting new scope plates cut (together with slightly 'narrower' widescreen ones)!
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 07-22-2008, 11:47 AM:
 
In playing a couple of India films a month for the past 4 years, we've played one that was flat and one that was 1.33, the rest have been scope. Sound formats have been sometimes unusual, gotten several lately that had DTS and mono analog, one that had SDDS and mono, and a lot of analog only, most have SRD and SR but neither SDDS nor DTS. I'm told that pirated DVDs are on the street in India with a day of the theatrical opening of all films and that both camcordered and pristine copies abound and are dirt cheap. Official DVDs are released almost immediately too.

Indian audiences are demanding and the sound has to be VERY LOUD, much louder than would be tolerated by any American audience.
 

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Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 07-22-2008, 12:05 PM:
 
As Bill said, the soundtracks seem to be recorded loud to start with, but, yes, they do like em played loud! I know, now, that the level isn't quite right until I can feel the booth floor vibrating!

The films themselves do use sound really creatively, almost like the old cartoons, where every significant gesture is punctuated with a musical sting.

If nothing else, they really test how well your sound system is performing!
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 07-22-2008, 01:42 PM:
 
Having a digital stereo track and a mono optical track is not unusual in Indian product. One processor manufacturer a few years ago modified their output circuits as not to distort when reproducing at the high volume they prefer.
 

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Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 07-22-2008, 07:28 PM:
 
The people making these films in mono should know that it really pisses off the audience. Indian audiences are among the most discerning out there, they really know what to expect and are upset when they don't get it. They two guys who bring these fims in are pissed with us when the film is mono and think we are BSing them when we tell them we can't make it stereo.

Does it cost significantly more to produce a stereo track?
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-22-2008, 08:25 PM:
 
Physically show them that the track is in mono. Also ask them why you would have reason to BS them about this.
 

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Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 07-22-2008, 09:36 PM:
 

quote: Andy Frodsham

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As Bill said, the soundtracks seem to be recorded loud to start with, but, yes, they do like em played loud! I know, now, that the level isn't quite right until I can feel the booth floor vibrating.

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