Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: A massive Thank You to whom ever is responsible for my print of Step Brothers

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-24-2008, 11:53 PM:

I can not tell you how psyched I was to see I had to spend extra time building up this print. In fact, I was so psyched that I'm tempted to program Beverly Hills Chihuahua as requested (even though there wasn't one in the can.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-25-2008, 12:18 AM:

Rewind Reel#2 from the shipping reel to a house reel first.
Next, rewind Reel#5 from the shipping reel to a house reel or you can use the empty shipping reel from Reel#2. Set Reel#5 aside for a few minutes.

Build Reels#1, 2 & 3 onto a 6,000 foot (or other large size) reel. Take this time to visually inspect the film as you build.
Rewind the entire first half of the movie onto a second 6K reel.

Spin the first half of the show onto a platter and continue working on the second half at the bench. (Come back and check on it every couple-few minutes.)

If you don't do your trailers as "drop-ins," be sure you put them onto the big reel before you spill it onto the platter.

Now, start with REEL#6 and build it TAIL FIRST onto a big reel.
This is a perfect time to put all your cues on the film and be sure they are right.

Finish up by splicing Reel#5 (previously rewound) then Reel#4. Again this is TAIL FIRST. You built up Reels#6, 5 & 4 in reverse order onto that other big reel and they are now heads up so you DO NOT have to rewind.

If you are good at your job you will probably be finished with the second half of the movie at about the same time the first half is done spilling on.

Attach the head of REEL#4 to the tail of REEL#3 and finish spilling on. When this is done, you should be ready to roll.

Yes, I agree that the bone heads in the lab could have very easily shuffled reels so that they are all heads up or tails up but we're just going to have to get used to this.

After a while, you'll learn to puzzle it out and figure out what the best way to build up any print is, given a random orientation of the reels.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-25-2008, 12:41 AM:

I'm pretty good at figuring out the easiest way to build up when I have mixed heads and tails, it's just a major pain in the ass. And in the case where it is literally every other reel, I can't help thinking someone did it on purpose.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-25-2008, 01:12 AM:

Hey, we get them that way from our local lab Atlab pretty much every time...complete with inaccurately cut leaders. What I mean by that is if their run is reel 1 then 5 we can get the start of reel 5 leader still attached to the tail of reel 1.

Incredible, but true.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 07-25-2008, 01:34 AM:

WoW! Whoever packed your "Step Brothers" print must have been the same joker who did my "X-Files" - - it arrived the same way, with alternating heads & tails out.

The scary thing is that I have a print of "Step Brothers" to make up in the morning. I haven't opened the box yet, but after seeing your post I'm not sure what to expect.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-25-2008, 01:57 AM:

So which way do you crackers prefer to get your prints... all heads or all tails? At the moment I prefer all tails since I do not have a Platter Reel, otherwise I would demand all heads all the time or a lawsuit would be filed. I still wouldn't mind if the last reel was always tail out since it would force a rewind and that always makes it easier to find where the credits begin so I can place the cue which magically brings up the lights. The only annoying thing about all tails is having to put the tail leader around the hub and then wrap up the head leader.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-25-2008, 02:04 AM:

Since I have a platter reel, I prefer heads out. But my print of X-Files also came mixed - with mostly tails out (2 and 6 were heads) so I built up on 6K reels.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-25-2008, 03:07 AM:

..prob how Deluxe labs had the film on the large cores right after developing before being mounted on shipping cores.

Used to this for many-a-year: mixed reels like this.

..and don't blame the ETS depots for this since all they do is mount the flanges on the cores when the core shipments comes in ,

And,for TECH prints, once in a while, comes this way as well.

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 07-25-2008, 03:47 AM:

I remember back in '87 when I was first learning to build up, they always came tails up. Except of course the 2 to 3 reels that had been inspected, they were heads up with a nice white label showing that they had been inspected. Nowadays however they are probably mixed and matched more by accident.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-25-2008, 04:40 AM:

Guys, this has been gone over many, many times, but I'll say it again.

Loop printers will create reels all with the same orientation (for example - all heads up).

Bi-directional printers will create 50% of the reels heads up and 50% of the reels tails up.

Deluxe in Canada is the main lab distributing to the US that uses bi-directional printers. The rest use loop printers. If you are in the US and have a mainstream film in your hands that arrived as a mix and match of heads and tails, it was almost certainly printed at Deluxe in Canada. They have been asked to stack the heads and tails together to send out prints all of one orientation, but that is just not something they are willing to do.

With some exceptions, generally people in the central and eastern US will get their prints made at Deluxe labs from the Canada lab. Generally the people on the west coast get their prints made at Deluxe labs from the California lab.

Technicolor has two printing labs, one in California and one in Canada. Both use loop printers. For reference, Warner Brothers and Universal are the main two studios printing at Technicolor. (Buena Vista recently switched to Deluxe, so their prints are no longer made at Technicolor.)

There are two shipping depots:

*DFS (Deluxe Film Services...formerely ETS...the people who ship in the grey "Fox boxes" and regular cans)

*TES (Technicolor Entertainment Services...the people who ship everything in orange cans)

Currently everything ships from DFS depots except for Buena Vista, Universal and a couple of little studios like Lion's Gate. Those ship from the TES depot.

The shipping depots have absolutely nothing to do whether your print comes in all heads or a mix and match. Don't blame them.

What you CAN blame the depots for is when they don't clip the reel onto the core properly and you end up having to disassemble the reels to re-orient the core in there properly so that it fits on your equipment with drive dogs. I find this is more often the case than not, which is silly as it wears out the reels twice as fast.

Posted by Mark Beach (Member # 4636) on 07-25-2008, 06:09 AM:

Why don't you just rewind them to either Head or Tail? So they are all the same?? Simple! [Cool]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 07-25-2008, 06:19 AM:

It is simple, but people have to whine about something. You just live with it. I get prints in many times like this or all tails out. I just rewind the reel and get it ready to show.

Very simple

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-25-2008, 06:30 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
What you CAN blame the depots for is when they don't clip the reel onto the core properly and you end up having to disassemble the reels to re-orient the core in there properly so that it fits on your equipment with drive dogs. I find this is more often the case than not, which is silly as it wears out the reels twice as fast.

I'm always blown away when I get a reel that has a hole in every section of the core, and they still manage to line up the key slot with the hole in the split reel so you still have to disassemble the reels. (did that make any sense?)

Posted by Mark Beach (Member # 4636) on 07-25-2008, 06:44 AM:

I guess we are blessed here in the UK - 95% of our prints come in almost perfect condition. Although we do get a varied mix of reels been Head or Tail out. As we have to spool straight onto a platter (as we wernt provided with the correct tools!) We prefer them being Head Out - although most of the time before I make the print up I rewind them so they are all head.

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 07-25-2008, 08:39 AM:

Joe Redifer wrote:

"So which way do you crackers prefer to get your prints... all heads or all tails?"

Like you, Joe, tails up, since I do not have a platter reel either. Also, since I am building on 6000's at the bench, it's easier to place cues, as the emulsion side is up.

Additionally, I find that most of the trailers come tails up as well.

If I have multiple prints, I will open and inspect all cans/boxes first. That way, I can "mix and match" to save time rewinding if I find same reels in opposite orientations.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 07-25-2008, 10:14 AM:

quote: Joe Elliott
I remember back in '87 when I was first learning to build up, they always came tails up.

Back in "the good old days" when changeover booths still outnumbered platter-plexes this was the norm.

I'd get my prints tails-out and inspect them while winding onto the house reels. During the last show, you'd use the house reels as take-ups and ship them tail-out back to the exchange or the next theater. It was not unknown for the union to file a complaint if reels came in "heads-out" on a regular basis back then.

As for receiving my "X-Files" print with mixed heads & tails out- - The thing that made it a real(reel?) butt pain for me yesterday was that my rewind bench is in the process of being moved from one booth to another and is currently dissasembeled, so I had no easy way to rewind the reels.

I made a 'rewind' using two MUT's, but this required dragging one down & up a flight of stairs , and through an auditorium- - something I could not do while a show was running.

So, I lost a lot of 'make-up time' on a busy day that could have been put to better, more efficent use if the reels had arrive either all heads out or tails out instead of mixed.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-25-2008, 12:06 PM:

quote: John T. Hendrickson, Jr
Like you, Joe, tails up, since I do not have a platter reel either. Also, since I am building on 6000's at the bench, it's easier to place cues, as the emulsion side is up.

Not quite. All of the labs (except for one overseas) wind their prints emulsion out regardless of whether it is heads or tail.

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 07-25-2008, 12:24 PM:

tails up is best for us... as we are doing 2000ft reels most of the time... or we build right onto a 10-12,000ft tower reel.

Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 07-25-2008, 12:36 PM:

quote: John T. Hendrickson, Jr
If I have multiple prints, I will open and inspect all cans/boxes first. That way, I can "mix and match" to save time rewinding if I find same reels in opposite orientations.

Isn't this frowned upon, as CAP Coding varies by reel and print number?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-25-2008, 12:43 PM:

quote: Justin Hamaker
and they still manage to line up the key slot with the hole in the split reel so you still have to disassemble the reels. (did that make any sense?)

sadly, you've got min. wage employees there who are just barely doing their needed job and have a simple job to do. No expert film handling here.

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 07-25-2008, 01:10 PM:

quote:
If I have multiple prints, I will open and inspect all cans/boxes first. That way, I can "mix and match" to save time rewinding if I find same reels in opposite orientations.

Isn't this frowned upon, as CAP Coding varies by reel and print number?

i wouldn't mind messing up the CAP system like that, but if there is a problem with a reel, i'd like to report it as coming from the correct print. so i don't mix & match.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-25-2008, 01:22 PM:

quote: "Galen Murphy-Fahlgren"

quote: "John T. Hendrickson, Jr"
If I have multiple prints, I will open and inspect all cans/boxes first. That way, I can "mix and match" to save time rewinding if I find same reels in opposite orientations.
Isn't this frowned upon, as CAP Coding varies by reel and print number?

Well, yes, but those "CAPped" reels are still at your theater.
AFAIK, it's always the same reel(s) which are capped in a given feature. This way, it's not possible to swap the reels around to defeat it.

So, IF two copies of a capped feature gets sent to a theater it doesn't matter whether the reels a swapped because they still have you on record as possessing that print for a given period of time.

It doesn't mean that I recommend it. I believe it's always better to keep reels from the same shipment all together.

But I don't think it's MANDITORY. Is it?

[Confused]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-25-2008, 03:07 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Not quite. All of the labs (except for one overseas) wind their prints emulsion out regardless of whether it is heads or tail.

Assuming your take-up is spinning in a clockwise direction (my rewind bench can ONLY spin this way because it is Neumade) and the soundtrack is facing you, the emulsion will always be up when loading a tails-up reel to a 6k or 7k, etc.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-25-2008, 05:37 PM:

I don't care either way...heads or tails, but ALL the same way. It can't be that difficult.

quote:
Why don't you just rewind them to either Head or Tail? So they are all the same?? Simple! [Cool]

Hey, what a great idea. Why didn't we think of that? [Roll Eyes]

The point is, it's time consuming...very much so. And it's multiplied with multiple prints all received the same way to be built on the same night. Recently we went through this with 2 prints of Narnia (9 reels each print) and 2 prints of Sex And The City (8 reels each print). It made what should have been a relatively easy job much longer to complete.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 07-25-2008, 05:51 PM:

And even with multiple prints it wouldn't be a huge issue if we were receiving them on Tuesday or Wednesday. But when we're receiving the prints Thursday afternoon it's already difficult enough to get them built up without adding the extra time required to rewind reels.

The way I see it, the increasingly later delivery windows combined with a complete lack of consistency of reel packaging just shows the studios are far more concerned with the immediate cost savings than the long term satisfaction from quality presentations.

The one nice thing about receiving a second run print on Friday morning is you pretty much know it's going to be all heads out - if the projectionist was even semi competent.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-25-2008, 07:06 PM:

The "tails Out" reels could be rewound on the old Goldberg while you are making up the "Heads Out" reels.

This is one advantage of the 2,000 Foot booth as you still have house reels and a machine for rewinding to them while assembling the print on the inspection device.

When making up to 6,000 Foot reels, the choice would be: most reels (Heads or Tails) determine the direction of the makeup.

KEN

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-25-2008, 11:31 PM:

(Course, we old "film handlers" remember when film was almost always shipped tails out to out theatres so we can inspect them on the bench when we mounted the film on our house reels..)

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-26-2008, 11:11 AM:

Yes, when I first got into the booth, "making up" the film just meant rewinding it onto the house reels. The reel bands always said, "DO NOT REWIND AFTER SHOWING!" or words to that effect.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-26-2008, 12:36 PM:

Hmmmm... must be a slow news day.

Mine came with reels 2 & 5 tails out... noticed that when I opened the box.

No big deal... I have several empty reels in the booth, & I build at the bench. Just rewound the two before I started.

Problem fixed.

Next?

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 07-27-2008, 01:16 AM:

I suppose I prefer them head out, but I essentially don't mind. I don't EXPECT them to arrive in any particular way!

If they arrive head-out, I can build three to four parts up onto a 6000ft reel. I then rewind them back onto another 6000ft reel so they are head-out and ready for screening (we do changeovers).

Doing a double pass on the inspection bench (one in each direction) gives me more opportunity to spot any problems. Some edge or perforation damage can be detected more easily when you are running the print in one particular direction. This is now less of an issue with polyester prints.

Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 07-27-2008, 06:16 AM:

quote: Randy Stankey
Well, yes, but those "CAPped" reels are still at your theater.
AFAIK, it's always the same reel(s) which are capped in a given feature. This way, it's not possible to swap the reels around to defeat it.

So, IF two copies of a capped feature gets sent to a theater it doesn't matter whether the reels a swapped because they still have you on record as possessing that print for a given period of time.

If my brain is working correctly (no guarantees at this point), that would lead to problems when they go to other theaters if print 1 has a reel with CAP code from print 2 (and vice versa), and each print leaves you and goes to 2 different theaters.

You swap the CAP coded reels between 1 and 2.

The powers that be shipp print 1 to Oxnard, where it is camcorded by someone evil. Print 2 ends up in Cedar Rapids.

Even though the bootleg actually originated from the print in Oxnard, they are looking at the theater in Cedar Rapids for an explanation since the CAP code reveals it as print 2.

There is now smoke coming out of my ears, and I hope I explained that like I'm thinking in my little brain. I am assuming that the person breaking the film down isn't going to take the time (or remember) to switch the reels back.

Am I thinking clearly on this, or am I wrong?

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 07-27-2008, 09:34 AM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
The reel bands always said, "DO NOT REWIND AFTER SHOWING!" or words to that effect.

I think it was, "DO NOT REWIND AFTER SHOWING - STANDARD PRINT MAKE-UP" And green bands for flat, red for scope.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-27-2008, 10:46 AM:

Tim,

You are right!

The advantage to this system was that you could put the shipping reel in the lower magazine of the projector on the last run of a film. The film was evenly and properly tension wound by the projector. That meant you did not have to rewind it, just band it and put it into the can.

When it arrived at the depot, they inspected with a machine (or by hand) and that meant they could send it out without rewinding since it would then be heads out.

It was not uncommon to receive a currier delivery a half hour before your showing and you could trust the film to run directly from the shipping reels. Such was the quality of the depot work at that time.

KEN

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 07-27-2008, 10:46 AM:

And remember the prints arrived at the depots and were wound off the cores and on to the shipping reels. Normally crappy metal ones at the time.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-27-2008, 11:19 AM:

Kenneth, I found the quality of the work by NFS to greatly vary back in the day. I could never trust the Dallas depot on print inspections except to put light scratches on the print because they would only change gloves what seemed like once a month. There were 8 rewinding stations in the room with a bunch of nice older ladies who unfortunately didn't have any clue as to what they were doing other than winding it through their glove to see if it broke. They never stopped at splices to check for misframes or anything on a used print. I asked many times for them to just give me my cans empty with shipping reels in it and let me have the box with my print still on cores from the lab, but they wouldn't do it. Instead I ended up rejecting a fair number of reels on a regular basis due to their "inspecting" scratches.

Of course NFS was just as good as the current depots when it came time to splicing on the attached trailer at the depot. They almost always would find the first visible frame of the studio logo and chop it right there. [Mad]

Anslem, yes what you say does make sense, but in this day and age of major releases getting multiple prints per theater, it is also just as easy to break a print down into the wrong can number. I always train to tag the tail of the prints with the print number if there is more than one copy in the building, but I don't see many other theaters doing that. As a result, the studios HAVE to go to the depot and pull the print to double check the CAP code on them to make sure in such instances...so in reality, swap away. It doesn't matter.

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 07-27-2008, 12:06 PM:

I get a chuckle out of the faxes we receive from technicolor, which seem to dictate which print of a multi-print feature we're supposed to be giving.

quote:
Please have "Wall-E" Print #42 ready for your normal delivery window

Only problem is that Print #42 happens to be playing until 12:45am, while Print #86, which only played twice that day, was off screen at 3:45.

Guess which print TES picked up...

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 07-27-2008, 03:40 PM:

I had a courier that specified he was to pick up print 1022, but I just tore down print 1057. (I forget the title and I'm making up the numbers here as I forgot those too). I took the reels from 1057 and put them in 1022's can and the courier was happy.
This is probably common with multiple prints MOST everywhere.

Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 07-28-2008, 12:31 AM:

quote: Brad Miller
Anslem, yes what you say does make sense, but in this day and age of major releases getting multiple prints per theater, it is also just as easy to break a print down into the wrong can number. I always train to tag the tail of the prints with the print number if there is more than one copy in the building, but I don't see many other theaters doing that. As a result, the studios HAVE to go to the depot and pull the print to double check the CAP code on them to make sure in such instances...so in reality, swap away. It doesn't matter.

Okay. That's kind of what I figured, but just thought I'd bring it up.

We label the prints with their print number if receiving more than one print, also.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-28-2008, 11:47 PM:

quote: Tim Reed
And green bands for flat, red for scope

(For FOX releases)..and to add: Black was mag/optical and Blue were Optical with "Fox Sprocketholes"

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-29-2008, 04:34 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Optical with "Fox Sprocketholes"

I've never seen that; what was the point in it?

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 07-29-2008, 06:04 AM:

Stephen,

Have you ever seen what standard sprockets do to the perforations in FOX HOLE films?

One pass through a projector with the wrong sprocket will destroy the entire print. It looks really bad during that first pass as well.

It was very important for the projectionist to be aware of the perforations on any incoming film as well as the sprockets installed in his booth.

KEN

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-29-2008, 07:45 AM:

Yes, but what would be the point of making an optical only print on cs perf stock in the first place? I've only ever seen them used on mag striped prints.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-29-2008, 01:11 PM:

On this side topic above: The only print that I saw that used the "fox holes" for optical only was when FOX released (in 1961) - "Snow White and the Three Stooges," which I ran as a kid show back in the early 70's (and amazing, the Deluxe print hasn't faded to red yet..).

...and what forever reason FOX did this form of release, is totally unknown to me, just that it was totally odd where, I do agree, why not standard holes for an optical only release?

Only thing I can come up with is that there were mag/opt releases of this film (being that the DVD does have a stereo soundtrack), and to cut production costs some was to use a single inventory film stock and stripe the stereo releases.

I did hear that FOX did release a few other films using "Foxhole" stockage, but never ran them....

-Monte

Posted by Laurie Higgins (Member # 4843) on 08-02-2008, 03:42 PM:

Yeah, my Meet Dave the entire thing was tails out, woot! Not.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-02-2008, 05:02 PM:

quote: Laurie Higgins
Yeah, my Meet Dave the entire thing was tails out, woot! Not.

If you have 6K reels and a rewind bench, then what's the big deal? Or do you not like having the whole process go quicker by not needing to rewind?

Posted by Ben Goodman (Member # 4770) on 08-03-2008, 03:31 AM:

I vastly prefer tails out for two reasons-- no rewinds necessary with 6Ks, and trailers are much easier to deal with, since they come tails out 90% of the time. Even if I get the reels heads out, I will rewind the first 6k before putting trailers on so I don't have to unwind them.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-03-2008, 03:42 AM:

The whole heads out tails out debate really isn't the issue here. the issue is having them mixed and matched on a print. I would rather have them all heads out so they can be built straight to the platter reel (for the minimum amount of handling), but even getting a print all tails out is better than this mix and match annoyance. Does anyone disagree that is the bigger problem?

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-03-2008, 03:50 AM:

Of course you're right; I was just responding to the specific complaint that a print arrived all-tail.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-03-2008, 03:51 AM:

Having tails out shipments means that you get your cuework done right at the beginning before rewinding..

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-07-2008, 07:29 PM:

I build prints either way. I am bi-directional.

Always build trailers onto a separate reel when the feature is heads out. Build them directly onto the 6000' reels when the feature is tails out.

I'm easy this way. Doesent matter.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 08-07-2008, 08:22 PM:

Uhhhhh... (mind numbing here).....

Running a carbon-based changeover booth, with hand dimmers, real curtain and masking switches.. AND.. a choice of what color of running lights to use was MUCH more complicated than it is today.

I'd like my films to arrive, all heads-up, pre-inspected, frames accurately marked, and cues pre-installed at the proper location for my system. I also want no more Fox Boxes or dented cans. If the cans come with locks, I want the combo in my email before the cans arrive. Matter of fact, I kinduv liked those big WB reels. Don't know why so many hated them so! [Big Grin]

I also want new plastic reels on all shipments, and the return of correctly-manufactured reel bands.

The studios should accept emails from me, outlining which trailers I want at the start of each print, and the print should arrive with these trailers attached the way I like them to play (no, I don't let the trailers go black for 5 seconds, and I don't play the entire freaking-long rating strip on every one).

If I don't get all the above, I just don't know how I'll be able to present a decent show tonight. [Razz]