Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: White vs. green Media Cleaner Pads

This is topic White vs. green Media Cleaner Pads in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Josh Rosen (Member # 4291) on 07-30-2008, 07:15 PM:

Hello,

A friend of mine who works in the booth I used to work at is trying to convince managment to buy a kelmar film cleaner so they can film-guard their prints (maybe she will have better luck convincing them than I did!). She has to present some info to them tomorrow on prices, etc. I was wondering if it makes a differene if you use the White Cleaning Media (5 yards per spool) or the Green Cleaning Media (8 yards per spool). Do you have to use the longer one for longer prints or will a print rarley cause your media roll to run right to the end?

Thanks in advance for your help.

-Josh

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-30-2008, 08:09 PM:

We cut ours in half before we use them and still there's more than enough to screen The Dark Knight plus ads a trailers.

You won't run out.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-30-2008, 08:34 PM:

The green media is abrasive and will cause light scratches. It is also noticeably more expensive. Avoid it.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-30-2008, 10:59 PM:

What color are the "official" Film-tech pads suppose to be? The product page shows light blue pads, but the ones I've been ordering from UCS are white. They are on the keyed cores labeled film-tech.

Posted by Ross Oba (Member # 3433) on 07-30-2008, 11:03 PM:

The ones we've been using are white. Although I can't speak for Brad, I assume they used to be blue.

Also, I noticed that the tape holding together the pad is now a tan color instead of blue.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-30-2008, 11:09 PM:

I believe the tape on ours is red.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 07-31-2008, 12:13 AM:

The original pads were blue. The picture on the product page was probably one of the better pictures my old camera ever took. The products were sitting on top of a large buzzing transformer in the booth. Brad liked that transformer because it kept him warm.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-31-2008, 01:17 AM:

There were too many complaints that the blue "made it harder to see how dirty the pads were after use", so I switched to white once that production run ran out. Then of course the complaints came in "but the blue was pretty".

Sorry, I've just never been able to sit down and take new pictures. The current pads come on the plastic coupling cores and are textured into a brick pattern like the white Kelmar pads. That texture traps the dirt in the "grooves" so a dirty print doesn't buildup and become abrasive against the film.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-31-2008, 01:24 AM:

Ah OK. For what its worth, we usually run about 20 passes on each side of the media by reversing and swapping the pads between top and bottom. And to keep from dealing with trying to re-tape the media to the core we don't let them run all the way out. By the way, have you ever considered keying both ends of the core?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-31-2008, 03:25 AM:

Reversing the media is fine, but don't swap them. The base side of the film carries most of the dirt and swapping them puts the dirt against the emulsion side of the film.

We don't key both sides because that would encourage people to remove the core from the takeup side, which should NEVER be changed (until the rubber inserts have worn out and require replacement). That is how most cleaning machines get damaged and parts go missing.

Posted by Mike Baer (Member # 1519) on 09-18-2008, 05:46 AM:

I want to order a kelmar cleaner with media pads. Where can i get the film-tech media pads.The most Dealers only have the Kelmar white or green pads.
And it should be a Dealer who ships outside the U.S.

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 09-18-2008, 10:23 AM:

I use the white Film-Tech media pads. When I rewind them to the beginning of the roll, there is usually more than enough media to clean two prints.

Being a drive-in, I always build my double features to one platter disc. With my policy trailers, 2-3 preview trailers, first full feature, 5 minute intermission, 2-3 more preview trailers, plus the second feature - at the end of the night there is usually still unwound media left on the roll.

I get my Film-Guard & media pads from either Hadden or Jack Roe USA. I know Hadden ships to just about anywhere.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 09-18-2008, 10:32 AM:

You can order them from any dealer on this list:
here

I like R.S. Engineering & Mfg at http://www.RSEM.com since they have quick online ordering. Many suppliers require you to call them to order or even just to get a price list.

Posted by Oliver Harper (Member # 4245) on 09-28-2008, 07:09 AM:

We use the green cleaning media, we found it gave better results at removing dust and dirt from the prints compared to the white media. We have had no evidence of the green media damaging the prints.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-28-2008, 12:26 PM:

Oliver, What are your light levels like? Do you have high quality lenses? I have never seen the green media NOT put fine scratches into the film. Bear in mind not only is it more abrasive, but it doesn't have the textured "grooves" in it to capture the accumulated dirt, so there is nowhere for it to go except to drag across the film. Both the Kelmar white and the Film-Tech media have the texture.

Mike, Jack Roe in the UK can get you what you need.

Also, the authorized dealer list page has been updated today.

Posted by Oliver Harper (Member # 4245) on 09-29-2008, 05:34 AM:

I work for Cineworld and we use Strong. The lens we use are schnieder lens. The white cleaning media we did use in the past and it was softer and actually cheaper but we found it hardly removed much dirt. So we changed to the green media which is very helpful when you have a old film come in for a one day special and its incredibly dusty, we haven't noticed any problems with our prints, we only clean them once a week so we haven't noticed any changes in quality of our prints.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-29-2008, 06:20 AM:

Oliver, are you using Film Guard?

Posted by Oliver Harper (Member # 4245) on 09-30-2008, 05:13 AM:

No we don't use film guard, we have discussed using it but we know if someone puts too much on the print it can ruin them so i've heard.

Our prints are usually brand new and we take good care of them but we do get second hand prints from time to time usually from Sony but they often have film guard applied to them by the lab.

[ 09-30-2008, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Oliver Harper ]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-30-2008, 08:01 AM:

There are so many things wrong with that post, I don't know where to start. Somebody help! Love the "usually always".

Posted by Oliver Harper (Member # 4245) on 09-30-2008, 12:01 PM:

Nice attitude there Joe.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-30-2008, 12:13 PM:

quote: Oliver Harper
we know if someone puts too much on the print it can ruin them so i've heard.

If you know it to be true, you wouldn't be adding the "so I've heard" bit.

In short: What you've heard is wrong. Sure, using too much is bad/stupid but it wouldn't ruin your print.

Regardless, if you follow the directions you won't be "using too much of it" and if you don't trust the people you work with to be able to read simple directions and follow them then those people shouldn't be in the booth.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-30-2008, 12:16 PM:

The first problem is Strong. So you find the abrasive green media cleans better than the softer white media...no doubt due to the pathetic backtension from a Strong platter, but regardless you are most probably putting very fine lines into the film that you can't see with the light levels you have on your screens, but that doesn't mean you aren't causing film damage that will affect someone else's presentation.

Also the only thing the labs apply to the prints is something called Scotchguard or Photoguard or Imageguard (all basically the same thing). It is clear you don't know what FilmGuard is or how it works. Try a bottle and following the instructions (don't make up your own procedure) use it on a couple of prints and you will be very surprised at how good 35mm film can look. It is impossible to achieve that "FilmGuard look" with any other product.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-30-2008, 05:57 PM:

quote: Oliver Harper
but they often have film guard applied to them by the lab

No they don't. Film Guard is only applied by the theatres...those that give a rats ass about quality.

quote: Brad Miller
Also the only thing the labs apply to the prints is something called Scotchguard or Photoguard or Imageguard (all basically the same thing)

It amazes me that these processes are even still perceived to be of any effect, let alone still being used by the majors. Every one of the Australian prints of Wall-E have been treated with this useless application. It's not only managed to trap all the dirt under its coating, the 'scratch removal' effect doesn't work either...I had to reject a print with 5 lovely base scratches down the RHS of picture.

These prints are all on 2393 stock [thumbsup]

yet they started out on day one looking the worst image on my screens (remembering Mamma Mia! had travelled 340 passes at this point and still looked brand new) and will leave the same way. [thumbsdown]

My untreated second-hand prints of Step Brothers, Angus Thongs and Perfect Snogging and The Bank Job started out with the aforementioned dirt and muck, but looked new 4 days into the seasons...all thanks to Film Guard.

So, those cinemas that care enough to spend money to clean properly are punished by having Photoguarded prints in circulation to somehow 'benefit' cinemas that couldn't care less.

As Mr. Spock would say...this is not logical.

Posted by John Koutsoumis (Member # 1855) on 09-30-2008, 09:47 PM:

John did you apply Filmguard to your print of Wall-E? I gave up after 2 days as the streaking would not go away where as the last few films I have run through the cleaner had no problems with streaking since I mastered the applying procedure.
There were no scratches on our Wall-E print but there was a lot of dirt in some parts. The film cleaner had no effect on the dirt. I should have known it had been treated as the each reel came sealed in plastic wrapping but all leaders had been cut. Kind of forgot that obvious sign [uhoh]

Our prints of the Bank Job and Welcome To The Sticks look amazing thanks to Filmguard.

[ 10-01-2008, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: John Koutsoumis ]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-30-2008, 10:29 PM:

No John, you cannot use Film Guard on a treated print. (By treated I mean Photo-guarded or the like). It cannot penetrate the useless coating they slap on these prints. Film Guard on these type of prints will look like water does on a polished car...streaky droplets. If you do miss one and inadvertently add FG to it, just leave it. Any trace of the FG should disappear within a day.

The plastic bag/spliced leaders thing happens with untreated second hand prints too. One dead giveaway that your print is treated is the toxic-smelling stench it gives off when you've opened the plastic or wind the film. It reeks of nastiness.

Posted by John Koutsoumis (Member # 1855) on 09-30-2008, 11:59 PM:

Thanks for that John. Yes any trace of Filmgurad on Wall-E has gone bar just a slight streak on opening Pixar logo. I wish I could tell distrbutors not to use such treatments on used prints as we have a far superior tool. Oh well.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 08-04-2010, 10:21 PM:

It has been 672 days since the last post.

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 08-04-2010, 10:21 PM:

Just to resurrect the green v. white media discussion.

Got a film cleaner about 4 weeks ago. It came packed with two rolls of white media "quilted for comfort". I had also ordered a box of green media. We had a super dirty print of City Island and I was afraid to re-use the initial pad after cleaning the print. The white pad was black and full of debris. So I ended up using the second white pad straight away, and used it through that final week.

When we brought INCEPTION in, I switched to a new pad, this time a green one. Saturated it, etc. After watching the film run, I noticed immediately that there were very fine scratches on the film. Nothing objectionable to the average theatre goer, but definitely noticeable to me. I had originally thought the scratches might just be uneven Film-Guard streaks, but wiping a section clean with de-natured alcohol definitely showed scratches.

When I ordered the green pads, I assumed they would be quilted like the white pads, but they aren't. As others have noted, the grit has no where to go. The scratches are clearly caused by surface grit on the pad, as the scratches will form and last for a few seconds until the grit has moved past. Then the scratch "fades out".

So, I'm with Brad on this one. I would recommend using only the white media.

-David

Posted by Manny Montes (Member # 5639) on 08-07-2010, 04:43 AM:

Used green pads once, caused light scratches. Threw the rest of the box away and ordered film-tech white media, I've never looked back. Reading the instructions i'm still fearful of continually re-using the same pads though, it says you should change the pads weekly, I like to change them every 3 days. We have 13 screens, I only have 1 cleaner, I run it on 5 screens each day with the newest prints getting the first coating for protection, then it works it's way around the booth. Once it hits all 13 screens I replace it because by then its usually incredibly dirty and i'm afraid of scratching a print.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-07-2010, 12:39 PM:

You should change the pads, resoaking only once per week, assuming you are following the ideal guidelines...which stipulates only ONE print. If you are juggling the same media pads around to more than one print, you could scratch it.

Resaturating should always occur when you run a different print through the same pads, and only if the pads weren't very dirty to begin with from the last film you ran through it.

What people shouldn't be doing is running a set of freshly saturated pads on the same print more than once a week. Hope that helps.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-07-2010, 02:48 PM:

I must state that sometimes (rarely) I must run saturated pads twice in a row if we get a print that excessively sheds. This seems to make it stop and doesn't seem to affect it adversely otherwise at all.

Posted by Manny Montes (Member # 5639) on 08-10-2010, 01:02 PM:

Brad,

thanks for the info, I understand it now Unfortunately I'm doubtful that I could get the purchase of 12 more cleaners approved (which I'd prefer so I can run it on every print), but c'est la vie, we make due with what we have