Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Seeing Dots

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Posted by Linda Corrigan (Member # 4800) on 09-25-2008, 08:08 PM:

I do a lot of previewing of our recently built movies, and I have noticed a series of small dots, sometimes making up a box shape. These appear to be on only one frame of film, since it flashes on and off so quickly. Does anyone know what these are? Thanks!

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 09-25-2008, 08:44 PM:

Assuming these are not changeover cues on the ends of the reels, where in the frame/picture area do these dots appear?

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 09-25-2008, 09:06 PM:

CAP code, maybe?

As in the late John Pytlak's animated .gif member pic:

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 09-26-2008, 12:36 PM:

Indeed. CAP dots. Almost always in a bright section of the screen, in theory, they are supposed to be a different sequence/pattern on every reel.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-26-2008, 01:49 PM:

Other wise know on here as CRAP code. Use the search function for either CRAP code or CAP code and you'll see a lot of threads/topics.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 09-26-2008, 04:23 PM:

And in the interest of clarity, I believe John P. made clear several times that CAP code, the encoding system he helped create, is different than the newer encoding system that is far more obtrusive. Even though we all call them both CAP code its actually different, only sharing similar concepts.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 09-26-2008, 04:33 PM:

Just to expand a bit, the purpose of the CAP code is to uniquely identify each print so that it can be traced back to a specific theatre when a pirated copy turns up.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 09-27-2008, 11:23 AM:

Last nite I sat down to watch our print of EAGLE EYE, and either it has LOT more CAP code dots than other films or maybe all the dots were just in places that made them more visable; but whatever the reason I gave up trying to watch it after about 20min becuase those damn dots were too distracting and annoying. The last "dot" I saw was the motor cue on reel one, and I was outtathere.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-27-2008, 11:40 PM:

I ran Eagle Eye on thursday night, and didn't really notice the code dots. But I was very busy in the booth anyway, and a few of the changeover cues were a bit difficult to see with all the rapid camera movement in some reels.

Speaking of changeover cues, is it just me or are the cues on scope prints moving further down from the top corner? Eagle Eye's were almost halfway down the side of the frame....and no, I wasn't threading out of frame. [Smile]

Our scope plate is tight on height.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 09-29-2008, 11:56 AM:

Your'e right- - the cues do seem to be a bit lower in the frame than standard placement. But not as low as "French cues".

[Shrug]

HUH?

Expanation:
About two years ago I was running a wholebuncha films as part of a festival series of French cinema classics in a change-over booth.

Most of these films were made in the late 50's & early 60's, and almost all the lab cue marks were located in the middle of the frame (equi-distant from the top & bottom) on the right side of the screen.

Ever since, I've referred to these as "French Cues"

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-29-2008, 01:29 PM:

French Cues, that's a good one...

The worst is some of the older films, pick any country of origin, with several cues scratched and/or punched all over the place, and none of them in the right place.

I usually resort to using a small diagonal line with a grease pencil to get the timing right, erasing my marks before rewinding.

And before I get blasted by the old-school changeover guys, I agree that I should ship out without rewinding, but since the lame-ass who spec'd my Kinotons got the standard takeups (the ones with the 8" diameter chain sprocket) I can't get a tight enough wind to safely ship films out. So I have to rewind. And since most of our films go to platter houses after we run them, I think most of the inexperienced platter apes are less confused.

Of course any of our people here would welcome a print fully tails up without bellyaching. [thumbsup]

edited for spelling

[ 09-29-2008, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Tony Bandiera Jr ]

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 09-29-2008, 01:38 PM:

I certainly appreciate you cleaning off your grease pencil cues. We just got a print that had perfectly good interneg cues that also had a full set of etched cues 8 frames later, plus full-frame grease pencil slashes. I cleaned off the grease pencil, but how lazy and audience-hostile do you have to be to make them that big? And how lazy/blind do you have to be not to see the perfectly good interneg cues either at the inspection bench or when running the damned thing? </rant>

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 09-29-2008, 01:59 PM:

OMG, anyone remember running cartoons!? Diagonally-scratched lines in the emulsion across the frame and/or in the corner, punched holes, X's scratched across the whole frame and/or in the corner, grease pencil marks, red magic-marker cues, hash-marks etched in the corners...

...all on the same print! [Eek!]

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-29-2008, 03:39 PM:

To me, "French cues' implies total lack of lab cues, since (almost) no French films have them. At least, this has been true for the last few years.

Posted by Thomas Pitt (Member # 4322) on 09-29-2008, 03:46 PM:

On some of the old cartoons, even on today's TV runs you can often see the reel-change dots in the top right corner. Some cartoons even have several sets of cue dots in various places, that have been passed from print to print through the years!

The worst I've ever seen is when someone had actually drawn long cue lines down the film (rather like when you're recording dialogue), so the projectionist could tell the exact moment to start the second projector and switch over - when the line hits the right hand side of the screen.

Thankfully, most of the DVDs available now have sourced the old cartoons from the cleanest prints possible, without extra cue marks. Sometimes they ruin the cartoons with DVNR, but that's another story...

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-29-2008, 04:17 PM:

Robert, thanks for the note of appreciation, I try to think how frustrated I get when people leave grease pencil cues behind, and I try not to inflict that on the next guy. I agree that it is very frustrating to find cues made when there are perfectly made and positioned, visible cues on the interneg and print. I put it as the folks making those extra cues are too lazy or stubborn to learn how to do a properly timed changeover.

Thankfully I've been spared the torture of running cartoons. [Smile]

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 10-03-2008, 03:22 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
Speaking of changeover cues, is it just me or are the cues on scope prints moving further down from the top corner? Eagle Eye's were almost halfway down the side of the frame

SMPTE 301 eliminated the anamorphic cue position of SMPTE 55. Therefore, anamorphic prints that follow the SMPTE 301 Standard have cues in the same position as "flat 1.85" cues. Onscreen the cues will be closer to the right edge and lower than SMPTE 55 cues.

Posted by Linda Corrigan (Member # 4800) on 10-07-2008, 07:57 PM:

[Smile]

thanks for all the responses. I do know what a cue mark is! [Smile]

I used to run projectors that were carbon arc, and I do remember the cartoons with all the crap on them. I did not however know of the cap marks. Thanks!
Linda