Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 'The Duchess' - no DTS discs in circulation!

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Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-06-2008, 12:19 PM:

Informed by DTS today that Pathe in the UK have 'chosen' not to send-out DTS soundtrack discs with their copies of 'The Duchess'.

Having heard this (quite by chance, incidentally) I have requested that DTS send me a disc directly!

If you are based in the UK and intend to screen this film with DTS sound, you'd better request a disc directly from DTS ASAP.

What a joke!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-06-2008, 06:14 PM:

DTS seems to become more and more obsolete every day.

Posted by Tyler Potts (Member # 4952) on 10-06-2008, 09:52 PM:

I never paid attention to the DTS discs until I switched to a theatre where 10 out of 14 needed them to run in digital (the bigger city theatre before had everything reading off the dolby track). Now we have to book auditoriums differently if something doesn't come with a DTS disc.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 10-06-2008, 10:13 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
DTS seems to become more and more obsolete every day.

I have discs here, although it is distributed by Paramount Vantage and not Pathe.

I would think the lack of discs in the UK would be a decision of Pathe and not the fault of DTS.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-06-2008, 11:20 PM:

I am referring DTS as a format. With Dolby Digital so easy to use and included on everything, there really isn't much of a reason to buy DTS products unless your audience is full of blind people, etc. For standard theaters it is pretty much useless, there are too many negatives about the format usually involving not getting discs and not all trailers supported.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 10-06-2008, 11:35 PM:

It's handy to have for those occasions when we get used prints here. Both our Wall-E prints opened with 6. to 7 error rates. DTS allows me the luxury of not having to worry about whether or not it drops out altogether at some point when I'm not looking.

Posted by Tyler Potts (Member # 4952) on 10-06-2008, 11:57 PM:

John, were the Wall-E prints used? I'm surprised as my experience with Pixar has been all extremely low error numbers (sorry to get us off topic).

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 10-07-2008, 12:09 AM:

Yes. Used and Scotch Guarded. [puke]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-07-2008, 02:21 AM:

Demand untreated prints. Say that they will not run through your projectors properly.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-07-2008, 04:31 AM:

Yes, the fault does indeed lie with the distributor (Pathe)! I didn't mean to suggest it was in any way the fault of DTS.

I am shocked that a distributor would make a decision to avoid despatching what, to some theatres, forms an essential element of the product being screened. If I were the director of this particular film, I might, rightly, feel a bit p***** off that some patrons are not hearing it in its full glory!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 10-07-2008, 04:43 AM:

You mean in Dolby Digital? [Wink]

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 10-07-2008, 04:48 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
DTS seems to become more and more obsolete every day.

I could not agree more , it was bad before but the past few months DTS discs are indeed rare items in the booth these days,
Mamma Mia,Wanted, Dark Knight, Mummy 3,Taken, Wall.e,Journey to centre earth , no discs.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 10-07-2008, 05:10 AM:

quote: Phil Blake
Mamma Mia,Wanted, Dark Knight, Mummy 3,Taken, Wall.e,Journey to centre earth , no discs.

Start demanding to know why not...I had discs for all these titles. Sounds like your dispatch are getting lazy.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-07-2008, 07:45 AM:

As a second-run art house theatre we NEVER get DTS discs with the prints anymore. Even when I email or fax the distributor in advance (specifically requesting that they include the discs)I still don't receive them.

It's all very annoying because I recently spoke to a guy from a local multiplex who was complaining about all those 'useless DTS discs that he kept getting'! He said that they were making the place look a mess and was planning on throwing them away - fecking cretin!

In the meantime, as far as we are concerned, I just contact DTS directly and ask them for a copy!

Posted by Tim Asten (Member # 4051) on 10-07-2008, 07:55 AM:

In our cinema, at least 95% of films are supplied with DTS discs. It is my sound format of choice. As has been mentioned though, The Duchess was supplied with no discs. In my opinion, as long as the DTS players are serviced regularly, they are very reliable and sound great even with worn prints where the DD tracks have long since been unusable. Admittedly our 6D'S aren't as reliable as our XD10 which is excellent - It plays 6 track sound, does subtitles, and plays audio description all at the same time if need be with only the odd glitch here and there. shame we have only the one unit at the moment.
Tim.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-07-2008, 08:04 AM:

The discs really should be available for download as ISO files. You can't play the discs without a theatrical DTS player so piracy isn't an issue. Ah, the solution is so simple, but so many stupid people in the corporate world stand in the way.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-07-2008, 10:46 AM:

Agreed. And, the disks should be treated as a "reel" and any theatre not returning them should be charged a hefty fee, same as would happen if a reel disappeared from a print. There has never been a reason given as to why this can't be done.

It has to be frustrating for DTS - as a company they can't control waht happens to the disks - it just boils down to the film distributors DON'T CARE! Or they would do something about it.

It used to be pretty rare that DTS disks would not arrive with used prints here. Now, I would say probably 1 out of 4 prints arrive disk-less.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 10-07-2008, 10:52 AM:

I wouldn't shed too many tears for DTS. They have the technology available to solve the problem, but they choose to ignore such solutions to the detriment of the theaters who purchased their equipment.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-07-2008, 01:39 PM:

Tim, this posting wasn't intended to be a rant about DTS. I totally agree with your comments about the system and concur that it is my favourite source of soundtrack audio too!

I think the topic of missing DTS discs has been debated many times before, but I do think it pathetic that a film distributor should make a conscious decision not to circulate readily available DTS audio material with the print!

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-07-2008, 02:02 PM:

Would you blame Dolby if the prints you received could not playback DD? It is the distiburors fault. These Iso files should be availavle from a secure website from the distributor. DTS is a great system.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-07-2008, 02:17 PM:

Again, if you read my post carefully, you will note that my criticism was NOT of DTS but Pathe!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-07-2008, 03:12 PM:

quote: Demetris Thoupis
These Iso files should be availavle from a secure website from the distributor.

They should be available on DTS' website. It would be best to keep them all in one central location. It wouldn't even need to be a secure server. What the hell are regular, non-theater people going to do with JUST the audio files they can't play? But if it helped the studios feel easier about it, then a secure site would be acceptable. Kind of screws with people who bought used DTS units, though.

But it will never, ever happen. It's too late. Film is doomed. Nobody wants to make film movies anymore. The hot new trend is digital cinema. You don't need DTS discs for that.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-07-2008, 07:01 PM:

Demetris

Here in Italy back in 2004 we got 99% of prints so bad printed that SRD was gone in 24/48 hours after the first show.

Projectors were blamed by labs that time of course, but my projectors (and all others!) are the same - No, soundheads has 10.000 hours more on them now! - and now SRD lasts as long as you want with very low error rate.

Never blamed Dolby for that.

About Disney, I remember that Italian prints of Ratatouille had many reels that read 7 at first pass.

I must say that a properly maintained DTS player (= good working drives) is very reliable.

Marco

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-07-2008, 07:09 PM:

My whole point is that if you were putting together a theater, why would you buy DTS these days especially knowing all of the difficulties getting discs can be? That is why DTS is obsolete. If you put together a new theater (that gets new prints) and install BACP penthouse readers, then Dolby Digital is no fuss, no muss. We have a DTS player and it is useless. I have been pushing for them to sell it as there is never, ever a reason to use it.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-07-2008, 07:45 PM:

Yes, these days perhaps it's useless, with PCM sound coming with D-Cinema.

About disks, seems that I'm lucky... Since many years getting disks isn't an issue here, we just get all of them and in time. I do not remember last time we did not get disks in time (perhaps some preview we made, but disks was delivered by the release date).

Marco

Posted by David Stone (Member # 4846) on 10-07-2008, 08:52 PM:

Hi John,

Sorry to hear about the error rate on your WALL-E prints. My print was 2nd hand but runs 2-3 on error rate, one spool runs 1 and the whole print is EX.
Cheers,

David.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-08-2008, 08:28 AM:

And yet again, I think that the problem with DTS is mainly in the US. In Europe, as far as I know both in Greece and Cyprus, all films come with the DTS discs inside. Even cinemas who don't have DTS are being send the DTS discs!!!! I can surely vow for Cyprus (not for Greece) but yet again it shows that the problem is with the crap distributors you have over there. Copyrights probably prevent DTS from having a dedicated server for all movie soundtracks. I still believe that it is the distributors' job to deliver the DTS discs.
Demetris

Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 10-08-2008, 11:37 AM:

In Seattle, we are getting DTS discs for nearly every print that offers a DTS soundtrack. For "The Duchess" and (if I recall correctly) "In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege Tale" along with other titles with smaller print distribution, they are burned CDs rather than pressed, but we still get them.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-08-2008, 07:04 PM:

DD should not suffer from wear. We have a DD test strip, 50 ft long, that has been dragged through oil, scratched on the floor, and run about 5-6000 times. It is our primary DD set-up film for initial alignment. When it finally faults, we clean it with a shop rag.

It is difficult to imagine your operational projector is worse than that. I suspect that there is an alignment issue with 75% of the DD installations.

Sorry for the thread drift. Louis

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-09-2008, 10:34 AM:

Louis

No, DD doesn't wear at all. A good print read even 0 on my soundheads and good prints raise error rate of 0,5/1 within months of shows.

It was a general issue with prints here during that time. It was a problem for everyone here, but labs never take their responsibility. Dolby knew about the issue, that was only on Kodak print stocks, I don't know because of Kodak's or lab's fault.

Marco

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-09-2008, 09:07 PM:

quote "that was only on Kodak print stocks, I don't know because of Kodak's or lab's fault."
The perf area is subject to higher wear than any other area on a print and many older machines did abrade that section
I feel sorry for anyone who tried to run a DD print after it played on a olde super or standard or wenzal
And as for DTS being obselete I am just installing another 15 units right now

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-10-2008, 01:20 AM:

I'm pretty sure the SDDS area gets more wear.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-10-2008, 02:20 AM:

Don't blame DTS for the inability to download ISO files and skip the disc dilemma entirely -- they built that capability in with the XD10; not to make downloading available to exhibitors has ALWAYS been the studio's choice and the result of their suits' manic obsession with piracy.

As Joe says, this solution laughably simple. I say, it's so simple that even a moron would see it, which certainly should qualify the studio execs.

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 10-10-2008, 03:37 AM:

Yes Gordon, I quite agree - DTS is far from obsolete! And, when the discs arrive, it always performs solidly and without a hitch (in our theatre anyway)!

If they good just sort-out the disc issue!!!

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-10-2008, 06:14 AM:

Gordon

You can believe me or not! [Smile]

That issue was in the whole country and limited to Kodak Stock. Fuji was not affected.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 10-11-2008, 03:05 AM:

quote: Andy Frodsham
Pathe in the UK have 'chosen' not to send-out DTS soundtrack discs with their copies of 'The Duchess'.

Ironically, the 'Dutchess' print I got had THREE complete sets of disks enclosed. [Confused]

Go figure!

I don't think DTS is all that bad. Technically it's not a bad system. The weak point seems to be the disks, which can often arrive scratched, crushed, or not at all.

I agree with those who suggest that there should be a way for DTS clients to download audio content from DTS via a secure server & internet connection.

I'd also like to be able to interconnect all my XD-10s in the same location so that when moving prints from one auditorium to another, the player in that booth could find the audio it needs on one of the other units and then transfer it to its' own disk, without me having to physically load each player with the disks. (not that it's a BIG task, but I have enough other stuff to keep me busy!)

When I worked as an engineer for a video-tape house (1 inch) a while back, the editing system had a timecode device with a "GPI" (General Purpose Interface). It provided either a current-sink or relay closure at a given SMPTE timecode reading so that you could control external devices such as non-smpte compatable audio playback decks, video switchers, DVE boxes, etc.

I'd really like to see someone make a similar box that would read DTS timcode and provide relay or TTL outputs at any
pre-set time code point(s). I can think of DOZENS of theater and projection operations I could automate with such a device.

But as far as I can tell from the manual, there isn't any way to even port the DTS code out of the XD-10 to use elsewhere.

If I wasn't so busy I'd start haking the thing and figure out how to do it myself.

[ 10-11-2008, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Jim Cassedy ]

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 10-11-2008, 02:55 PM:

With respect to loading content from one unit to another within a single complex, the successor to the XD10, the XD20, will do just that. It is a 2RU unit, with a separate 1RU unit with the drives for disc loading (the DR1). A booth equipped with XD20s can load the content (feature soundtracks, captions and/or audio description) onto a single unit: the others will see that new content has been loaded, and will clone it onto their own internal drives.

We'll have units on display at ShowEast, so come check 'em out if you'll be in Orlando.

Posted by Drew Ballard (Member # 4650) on 10-11-2008, 04:24 PM:

quote: Phil Blake
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mamma Mia,Wanted, Dark Knight, Mummy 3,Taken, Wall.e,Journey to centre earth , no discs.

I also had all the DTS dics with all these movies

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-11-2008, 08:00 PM:

I saw a preliminary leaflet of the "ShowStore" unit. So it will be XD20 after all! Good to know that.
Demetris

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 10-14-2008, 10:16 AM:

quote: Daniel Schulz
With respect to loading content from one unit to another within a single complex, the successor to the XD10, the XD20, will do just that. It is a 2RU unit, with a separate 1RU unit with the drives for disc loading (the DR1). A booth equipped with XD20s can load the content (feature soundtracks, captions and/or audio description) onto a single unit: the others will see that new content has been loaded, and will clone it onto their own internal drives.

Will the XD20 have the ability to phone home and retrieve soundtrack ISO's for movies that it needs, but doesn't have discs for? At the very least, can it take ISO's on either DVD or USB thumb drive that licensed owners can download from a central repository for those unfortunate instances when they don't get the discs with the film?

If so, that sounds like an incredible unit, and I'm sure that theaters will be very interested in upgrading to that product.

If not, good luck with that.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-14-2008, 06:21 PM:

Scott

DTS told us many times that this is not possibile because studios are not allowing it, unless things are changed.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 10-20-2008, 03:44 PM:

I understand that, and that's why I commented the way that I did.

A product that had such a capability would be truly compelling. Any product without it does nothing to help the biggest limiting factor in DTS installations growing any time soon.

It doesn't matter who's causing the logjam in getting such a feature released, it's ultimately DTS's responsibility because it's their product that is affected. Sufficient will on someone's part would make it possible, and that will seemingly doesn't exist, so their product line suffers as a result.

Without such a compelling feature, any new DTS product is going to need some serious luck and skilled marketing/sales to sell decently.

That's why I wished them luck, I hope that ShoWest has been good to them.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-20-2008, 07:03 PM:

quote:
Sufficient will on someone's part would make it possible, and that will seemingly doesn't exist,

Don't be too sure. Remember it is film company executives and legal departments they are dealing with on this issue, and those people live in a completely different universe than the one the rest of us occupy. (I know this because I'm an exhibitor.)

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-20-2008, 07:09 PM:

I think his point as that no matter whose fault it is, it makes it a big disadvantage of owning a DTS system.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-20-2008, 10:58 PM:

Gotta agree. We went to Dolby in '06 because we upgraded our whole sound system and traded the DTS in on a Dolby package.

I was a big proponent of DTS when we first got it, mostly because it allowed a small place to have digital sound without spending such huge $ as with Dolby. But now, probably one in four prints we get arrives without disks; and some of the disks we do get are smashed or scratched. It has gotten markedly worse over the past six months or so.

I would never go back to DTS and wouldn't recommend it for anybody unless they run everything on the break, and even then you risk smashed disks because they stupidly trashed their great shipping container in favor of the cheap plastic DVD boxes.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-23-2008, 11:17 AM:

Given that the studios seemed to have relented, at least a bit, about sending their product over the internet for non-theatrical content which at times, is playing similtanious with the second run houses (See the "Swank encourages..." thread in the Straight 2 Video forum), it doesn't seem like a huge leap (at least not for rational thinking people) for the studio suits to OK the same for legitimate theatres with known licenses to get just the soundtrack -- password and key protected -- via the internet. It's not brain surgery, boys and girls; what's the damn deal with these people?! [Mad]

DTS might not be the direct reason this service is not available -- they will immediately give you that knee-jerk explanation that it's the studios' fault, but that is getting pretty lame. They need to harrang the studio suites on a daily basis -- I mean, threaten and harrass them....do prank calls....send envelopes with talcum powder in them -- anything to make these guys sit up and pay attention. After all, it's DTS's life-blood; they should be more proactive about the problem.

The way to do it would be to make a big deal about it at ShowEast & West, put some of their advertising money into getting news articles published, maybe even an SMPTE white paper hearlding an enhanced security system for sending soundtracks over the internet instead of shipping out discs, even if its some simple key encoding, make it sound like it's new and solves the problem.

If they can generate a big industry hullabaloo about it, it will put the ball right at the feet of the studio execs. After all, wasn't that the freakin wetdream of the studios in the first place, to send their ENTIRE features over satelite and internet from day one? Don't they still reguard this shipping hard-drives to theatres as a primitive stop-gap?

The studios really need to get off the pot, as they say, and DTS needs to do more to give them a good shove rather than to sit back like wusses and just say it's the studios' fault.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-23-2008, 02:12 PM:

On the other hand though, DTS or DD is meant for the simple projectionist. Imagine having to explain to thousands of projectionists how to go online and download a soundtrack on DTS format, burn it on a CD and put it in the DTS player with the hope it will play! I too support the DTS Online Soundtrack database with a secure key or whatever but I would not discontinue the use of discs. As I've said a lot of times in various threads, the DTS disc supply seems to be more common to the US rather than Europe.
Demetris

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-23-2008, 11:46 PM:

Wouldn't it be pretty easy to have Technicolor or Deluxe do an automatic 'feed' of a soundtrack to a film into a player hooked into a broadband connection? All the bookings are done via computer now anyway so it should be easy to set that up. That way there would be no disks or fiddling around. Projectionist goes to work on opening day and the sound is already loaded into the machine and ready to go.

I have all these great ideas and nobody ever pays me for them.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-24-2008, 01:54 AM:

No need to even download the entire soundtrack, just stream it in real time like Real Audio. I guarantee you that is the future of digital cinema once a reliable enough network is in place.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-24-2008, 03:44 PM:

Guys, the problem isn't technical, it's political. There are plenty of technical solutions to the problem.

It is easy to beat up DTS about this, but regardless of whether you think they're trying hard enough or not, I would ask that we all be polite to them. They're one of the few major vendors who participates regularly on Film-Tech (thank you Sam, and others, also!), and we want them to stay and feel welcome, not angered.

It sounds like if the studios permit the XD20 to exchange soundtracks within a theatre, then that is a small baby step, and maybe after that we can hope for more.

--jhawk

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 10-27-2008, 09:02 AM:

quote:
On the other hand though, DTS or DD is meant for the simple projectionist. Imagine having to explain to thousands of projectionists how to go online and download a soundtrack on DTS format, burn it on a CD and put it in the DTS player with the hope it will play!

If the DTS box (whether it's an XD10 or XD20 with a firmware upgrade or a completely new system) could phone home and retrieve the soundtrack itself, there wouldn't be any operator knowledge necessary. For those with older units that would need to download and burn an ISO instead, they should either hire the talent that knows how to do such a thing or upgrade to the latest and greatest DTS equipment that would (theoretically) go get it for them.

The technology exists, and all that's missing is the will of the people involved. The will of the DTS people to recognize the problem and to push the studios into allowing it, if that's actually the problem. If DTS doesn't have the clout with the studios to make it happen, then Darwinism takes hold and they go the way that all species that fail to adapt go.

Of course, the studios could be pressured from the movie theaters as well. What if NATO and/or Box Office magazine were to do a good survey of movie theaters to find out what the scope of the DTS problem really is? (This crosses threads with those that ask what NATO's usefulness is, and if Box Office magazine is still relevant or just an ad junkie)

If such results were published out in the open, no matter what the results, I think it would be an interesting thing to see. Is the problem widespread? Is it chronic or does it happen occasionally to the point where it's really not a big deal? Does it happen more to second-run theaters than first-run? Are there certain distributors that have a greater instance of missing/damaged discs?

All great questions that could be answered by the right survey.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-27-2008, 10:32 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
No need to even download the entire soundtrack, just stream it in real time like Real Audio. I guarantee you that is the future of digital cinema once a reliable enough network is in place.

I don't think so. I would rather have a copy of my movie in house. You never know when the internets are going to hiccup -- reliable network or not.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-27-2008, 10:44 AM:

If you are lucky it may cache on a local HD. If the internets hiccups then you can call and get a temporary "key" for that day to use until the internets is fixed. Hopefully you will be charged for using that key.