Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kodak Molecular Sieves: overdose?

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Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 10-25-2008, 06:11 PM:

Hello from a new member!

I need to set up a small home archive for some 8 mm and 16 mm films, some of them infected with VS. I'm going to do this properly - meaning sealed cans with Molecular Sieves.

Now, the instructions warn strictly against using more sieves than the recommended amount. I'm wondering what is the possible damage from overdose? Will the film simply get too dry and brittle during storage?

You see, the most convenient way of archiving 8 mm film would be to put two 400-foot reels of 8 mm film on top of each other in a single 35 mm film can, with one sieve. However, this would be a slight overdose.

With 16 mm film, the recommended amount seems to be one sieve per about 500 to 667 feet of film. For 8 mm film, this means one sieve per 1000 to 1333 feet. My method above would make it one sieve per maximum of 800 feet (usually much less, as my reels are rarely full).

Again, I hope John P. was still with us... [Frown]

And before someone suggests it: no, three 8 mm reels will not fit in a single 35 mm can (this would be a perfect amount of film for one sieve). The lid does kind of close, but there's an unnecessary pressure on the reels inside when cans are stacked.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 10-25-2008, 06:49 PM:

I have been wrong before, but isn't the use of metal, either spools or cans one of the causes of VS?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-25-2008, 07:41 PM:

I don't know if it is the processing or what, but I have literally thousands of feet of 8mm film dating back to the early 40s and absolutely none of it has gone vinegar. I am really surprised that you've encountered VS. My film hasn't been stored in any particularly controlled environment either. Mostly they were down in my parent's basement, then to their home in New Jersey in the gararge. These rolls are as good today as they were back then. No molecular seives or anything special like that, yet the color is pristine - no fade. The blues are as deep and vibrant as if it were developed yesterday, but of course that is Kodachrome reversal which is a totally different animal than 35mm release print, but whatever they did back then, the color just doesn't fade. Blacks as black as can be, too. VS seems to be non-existant.

I wouldn't spend a lot of money on more sieves than Kodak recommends. Much more important would be to store these prints in a cold environment....as cold as you can get it before freezing. If any VS started in your film, the low temperature will slow down the chemical reaction very significanly.

[ 10-25-2008, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 10-26-2008, 06:18 AM:

quote: Cameron Glendinning
I have been wrong before, but isn't the use of metal, either spools or cans one of the causes of VS?

I'm under the impression that only rusty metal can accelerate VS... I'm using plastic reels and brand-new metal cans.

quote: Frank Angel
I am really surprised that you've encountered VS.

Many of my 8 mm films are release prints of feature films. I'm not sure which stock they are printed on, but it's surely not Kodachrome - some of them only have magenta color left. [Smile]

Regarding actual VS, I cannot really check right now but I'm quite sure that some of my reels smelt of vinegar. Surely acetate 8 mm cannot be immune to VS just because it's narrower..?

quote: Frank Angel
I wouldn't spend a lot of money on more sieves than Kodak recommends.

That wasn't my intention. The reason I was asking about the dangers of sieve overdose was that the most convenient archiving method (for me) would necessarily involve a bit to much sieve per foot of film.

Posted by Richard P. May (Member # 3598) on 10-28-2008, 10:31 AM:

Our lab does a great deal of transfer of old 8mm to video, and very often, when receiving a box of film from a client, the vinegar smell is very prominent.
I think storage conditions are one of the prominent causes of this decomposition. Heat and humidity are the worst possible situation. There is much difference of opinion on what kind of cans to use, but it stands to reason that rusty or dirty containers sure don't help.
Keep it dry and cool, with prescribed amount of molecular sieves, and you should have good storage conditions. Once VS is started, it can't be reversed, and such film should be kept apart from non-affected film.
Size of the film doesn't matter. It is the acetate base.

DM

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-28-2008, 07:48 PM:

Hi Richard, I guess I have just been lucky. Those old 8mm home movies have no VS smell. There was quit number of years they were down in the basement -- pretty cold during the winters. But then I have lots of 35mm trailers from 60s and 70s -- no VS so far.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-28-2008, 08:13 PM:

..air circulation prob also plays a part in preventing VS in keeping the moisture level in check.

If Frank have tonnage of that smaller gauge film in such an enviornment and not stored in air tight containers, I can see why his stockage wasn't attacked with VS.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-29-2008, 09:13 AM:

You are right, Monte, my 8mm reels are not in tight containers - most is still in the small Kodak yellow cardboard boxes which pretty much allows air circulation. There are only about 8 or 9 200ft reels that my dad spliced together, and they were not put in cans. The reels he bought were in plain white cardboard boxes -- looked like 7in audio tape boxes -- so even those are not tightly sealed.

What amazes me is that in the theatre we have hundreds and hundreds of trailers all stored, again in cardboard boxes, not in cans or on large reels and none of them have turned VS. Many have lost color, naturally, but not gotten VS. But I will say that these have spent their entire life in an air conditioned storage room. Mind you, it's not scientifically controlled, just a big thru-the-wall A/C unit, and I've just set it as cold as it can get which is about 65 degrees....nothing like the recommended 40 or so degrees, but I guess it certainly helped. Lucky, lucky.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 11-01-2008, 04:11 AM:

I only have a few hundred 8mm films, but of those only a few are vinegar, most of the colour films are red, but thats a different story altogether.
Check that it isn't just the leaders that stink, sometimes the crappy leader is the culprit, this actually happens all the time. The 8mm vinegar rarity puts doubt over some peoples assumption that mag stripe causes VS

I find the larger gauges 16 and 35 are vinegar more often. I don't collect 70mm (nothing personal, I just can't watch it) But some say the mag stripe promoted VS on larger gauges.

Totally gone off topic, sorry.