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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-06-2008, 10:11 PM:
This was on the back of the information sheet in the can.
Dear Manager/Projectionist:
**Special instructions for sound security system on Madagascar 2**
There is a digital sound reversion within REEL 3 of MADAGASCAR 2, where the sound will switch from Digital to Analog. These reversions are part of a security system that is embedded within all prints of MADAGASCAR 2. If you should experience sound level issues between digital and analog you will have to re-balance the sound levels between Digital and Analog and this will correct the situation. Please test the levels by listening outside of the booth; you should not hear the drop out within the theatre. The reversion should only last a few seconds within REEL 3.
Thank you for your assistance!
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-06-2008, 10:56 PM:
You seem to have a few typos in your translation of the enclosure. I have corrected it below.
There is a digital sound reversion within REEL 3 of MADAGASCAR 2, where the sound will switch from Digital to Analog if you supported either Dolby or Sony by choosing one of their digital systems instead of dts. These reversions are part of a security system that is embedded within all prints of MADAGASCAR 2, but has been carefully designed to only punish those people who did not invest in dts. If you should experience sound level issues between digital and analog you will have to re-balance the sound levels between Digital and Analog and this will correct the situation provided you have a top notch Dolby SR analog system to fall back to while we intentionally kill the Dolby and SDDS digital soundtracks. Please test the levels by listening outside of the booth; you should not hear the drop out within the theatre provided you purchased a dts digital system. The reversion should only last a few seconds within REEL 3. We hope this favoritism will lead to more sales of dts equipment and a future lawsuit against us from Dolby and/or Sony.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-06-2008, 11:10 PM:
We didn't get that memo.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-07-2008, 12:21 AM:
deleted..
- Monte
[ 11-08-2008, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Monte L Fullmer ]
Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 11-07-2008, 12:55 AM:
I got the Same thing in mine as well. Now at least I have an excuse to get the sound checked out as it is now designed to go to Analog. I wonder if you could find it and cut it out. Although they did say it would be a few seconds. Great something else to explain to our "Don't know it all customers."
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-07-2008, 02:04 AM:
prob be easy since this section of film will have the Dolby and SDDS tracks blackened out, or not printed in - just be clear film,which would be easy to see on the filmroll while it sits on the platter - so the respective readers won't see anything..
Be kinda funny though if all the prints comes back to the depots with splices in that 3rd reel where that dropout happened.
-Monte
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-07-2008, 03:06 AM:
So, having the film switch from one sound system to another is unacceptable, but having several seconds of the film missing completely is acceptable? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I don't think this is a good idea, but removing the footage would be a much worse one.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-07-2008, 05:49 AM:
I agree with Brad's translation ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
This time is official. Let's see if something happens.
Marco.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-07-2008, 07:38 AM:
Brad, you are a riot. You guys should make a mockup of Brad's insert and replace it in the can when you return the print; change the letterhead just enuf so they can't claim copyright infringement (you know how testy they get about that particular subject). Who is this insert from, Pixar? Make it Pixilar. And replace the original text with Brad's most excellent interpretation. I would only add this line to Brad's: "Not only are we punishing all of you who didn't purchase DTS, but ALL of you who haven't yet purchased DIGITAL as well, because this security garbage only affects you poor film-based slobs. No one ever tries to bootleg DIGITAL versions with their camcorders, so digital doesn't revert to anything, except your bankruptcy....ooops, I think we've said too much."
First it was CRAP codes, then it was the BIGGER, more orangey, more annoying CRAP codes, then came the R2D2 noises recorded on the soundtrack, then the big THUMP thing, now it's "Hey, let's just drop the digital tracks out completely -- let's see how good their analog sound systems are aligned (laughter all around the MPAA Security Division "think-tank" conference table)." Congratulations all around the table, and then the moderator says, "OK aholes, next on the agenda -- Hitting up the studios for higher MPAA membership dues for coming up with this brilliant 'drop the soundtrack' security idea."
I swear, these suits need a good case of hemorrhoids, then remedied with the cherry-bomb-up-the-anus-ectemy.
Why not just print the print number in big white numerals on a black background on a few dozen frames every so often in random places on random reels---no make that on EVERY reel -- and accompany the visual print number by that same number audibly toned out on the soundtrack with telco Touch-Tone digits (naturally the film soundtrack will have to be dropped out for those tones, so they can be heard clearly and unencumbered by the inconsequential soundtrack). Hmmm, I have may have a new career at the MPAA.
Amend: make it double cherry bombs.
[ 11-07-2008, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]
Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 11-07-2008, 10:29 AM:
Brad's "correction" is hoot. Good Work!
When I read the original insert included with the film, I was
wondering if it would also affect DTS playback, since I will be running this in a DTS auditorium. I thought maybye they'd mess up a few seconds of time-code and have the system revert to analog.
But the way I'm interpreting Brad's 'clarification', what you're telling me is that the "security" feature only applies to the DD and SDDS tracks.
That makes no sense.
(Well,the whole thing makes no sense so trying to make sense out of it is senseless, I guess)
Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 11-07-2008, 10:34 AM:
"These reversions are part of a security system that is embedded within all prints of MADAGASCAR 2."
Is the security feature intended to discourage pirates from taping off a theater screen because of a sound drop-out, like these guys taping are concerned about quality ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-07-2008, 10:48 AM:
Its the same audio CRAP code that Paramount has been using. There was a big discussion about it on the Indiana Jones prints here.
I checked and this new anti-piracy system indeed does NOT punish people who purchased dts. They are showing favoritism.
Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 11-07-2008, 11:18 AM:
Ed brings up a good question. By reverting to analog, what kind of piracy countermeasure is that? Especially if the drop happens to occur in the same reel in each copy. Do they place the drop out at different times in different copies of the reel?
Posted by Jason Whyte (Member # 1433) on 11-07-2008, 11:28 AM:
This also happened with Paramount's Eagle Eye...you'd think that if they HAD to do this audio CAP code on the prints then they would pick a somewhat quieter scene where it wasn't as noticeable.
But NO, they had to do it in a whole reel with a major action sequence. There were at least four or five noticeable, audible dropouts involving big, loud sound effects. Terribly distracting.
Can anyone tell me exactly what this anti-piracy measure DOES to avert pirates? Camcorder versions of Indiana Jones and Eagle Eye still made it online no problem, and I'm sure Madagascar 2 will too.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-07-2008, 12:11 PM:
Frank, With Digital, they already have both visual and audible "watermarking." With digital, however, they can get it right down to the pixel and get the theatre's equipment to do the marking so there is no doubt which theatre had the pirate (each server/projector is registered).
Steve
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-07-2008, 01:30 PM:
quote: Edward Jurich
Is the security feature intended to discourage pirates from taping off a theater screen because of a sound drop-out, like these guys taping are concerned about quality
Even though it's a stupid measure, it's obviously not to DISCOURAGE pirates but to CATCH them. If they find a DVD with the sound drop-out, they know it was from a theater and not from some other source.
Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 11-07-2008, 01:31 PM:
I'm no expert on the mechanics of how they do this - except I suspect they run the reels through the printer for a second pass to lay on the orange dots and then simply paint over the SDDS and SRD tracks to destroy them. This would be the easiest way to change the pattern from print to print.
Great thing about DTS is they would have to completely obsure the DTS timecode for nearly 10 feet before the system would revert to <whatever>. I've got all of my DTS systems configured to revert to SRD, so if they actually did cause the DTS to drop out, it wouldn't be as jarring as cutting back to SR.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-07-2008, 01:53 PM:
Ah, so when all theatres are finally digital with no way to copy off the screen without getting hauled off to FBI bootleggers jail, then that means we will see the end of piracy! Then the studios can give back some of that 6 BILLION they claim they loose every year by, let's see....HALVING the rental terms to the theaters? Maybe charging $3 a ticket again like before there was video and piracy? Oh, wait -- there are the copies that come from the AMPAS screener DVDs, and the hotels.
I didn't realize that a lot of titles are recorded directly off the PPV systems in hotel rooms. I discovered this when I was doing jury duty two weeks ago and at a lunch break while I was sitting in Quiznos, directly across from the Supreme Court building, an area crawling with police, a guy came with a suitcase filled with a slew of DVD titles. I spotted W and RELIGULOUS and out of curiosity I asked if they were made with a camcorder in a movie theatre. The guy was very knowledgeable of his wares and assured me they weren't -- he said they were made from hotel Pay Per View. I asked him if he knew what he was doing was illegal and he sort of laughed and said he "had a 'deal' with the movie companies." Yeah, right. The deal being, they won't prosecute him if he makes sure he doesn't get caught.
The thing is, the minute they start offering stuff on PPV, it's over; perfect copies ripped faster than you can say RELIGULOUS. They can stop wasting their time ruining the film experience for honest people who pay $10 a ticket and start patroling hotels with their infrared cameras.
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-07-2008, 05:09 PM:
quote: Chris Slycord
If they find a DVD with the sound drop-out, they know it was from a theater and not from some other source.
Well, that should narrow it down to a few million venues.
Posted by Fred Tucker (Member # 4482) on 11-07-2008, 07:19 PM:
To me, all of these crap codes and audio drop outs are a push for digital cinema! I wonder what the SMPTE has to say about studios intentionally causing audio problems? There has got to be a better way that doesnt cause so much headache for us underpaid projecionists.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-07-2008, 08:52 PM:
quote: John Wilson
Well, that should narrow it down to a few million venues.
And at that point they'd look more closely for the CRAP code to narrow it further.
All it does is tell them where they need to look. If there's a sound drop: look at theaters as the probable vector. If there's none: look at screeners and the like.
Posted by Fred Tucker (Member # 4482) on 11-07-2008, 09:08 PM:
THe problem I see is that while the crap codes may identify the theatre it doesnt identify the perpetraitor. I think the odds are small that in a market with over 200 screens like mine that you could narrow things down enough to catch somebody, I realize that it has been done but at what cost? Granted, my GM came from a theatre in CHicago, the MPAA came in one night and said that they had identified his theatre as being a source of pirating, sure enough they did catch the guy. I have to wonder though, since this wa long before cap codes came out, how did they identify the theatre?
Another thought, if the sound is balanced between digital and analog how can the pirate police tell the digital is dropping out?
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-07-2008, 09:19 PM:
quote: Fred Tucker
THe problem I see is that while the crap codes may identify the theatre it doesnt identify the perpetraitor.
Of course it doesn't identify the perpetrator: IT ISN'T MEANT TO.
If 5 different movies were found that all were captured at your theater, I'd be suspicious and think that either your staff are very lax in terms of watching out for stuff or are "in on it." Either way, your theater gets talked to about how to change things to prevent it from happening.
edit: And the guy caught before the code was probably like this:
1) Since it was quite a while ago (before internet was big I assume) people were selling stuff just locally to where they lived and/or screened
2) So they watch the people selling then figure out who their regular associates are
3) Once they know the regular associates then they follow those guys to see which one is a pirate
4) And by doing so they find out which theaters are getting hit
That kind of method doesn't work so well now since I can sell something someone else screened thousands of miles away
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-07-2008, 09:27 PM:
I don't know Deluxe one (the one of Indy4) but Technicolor was able to have DTS players to insert the code without dropping.
Don't ask me why, but if you check when the SRD faults, DTS will beep without dropping.
Never checked Deluxe one.
Marco
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-07-2008, 09:42 PM:
quote: Fred Tucker
if the sound is balanced between digital and analog how can the pirate police tell the digital is dropping out?
They don't need to know if it they are listening to a copy of the digital or analog soundtrack. What they are listening for are the identifying gaps of silence that can be viewed on a waveform monitor. Each print will have the analog track messed up so that it can be identified, just like visual CRAP code. When the digital cuts out, the gaps o' silence are recorded by the camcorder (which supposedly cannot be distinguished by the human ear). That's why there are always loud sounds during the reversions, so they can see it more easily on the waveform. They piece these together to get a print number or whatnot. Then they come in and shoot the theater manager in the face and rape his/her children.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-08-2008, 12:02 AM:
quote:
If 5 different movies were found that all were captured at your theater, Of course it doesn't identify the perpetrator: IT ISN'T MEANT TO.
Wait a minute, unless the dropout in each print is unique in some way with some sort of identifying code or specific placement of the dropout, how can it be determined what theatre it comes from?
Unless the dropouts are able to carry some specific marker -- and we don't know that this is not embedded somehow that they are not revealing, which certainly could be, just as John said there was more to the CAP code than was made public -- which can identify the theatre where the bootleg was made, what good is it? And why is a sound dropout any better than the CAP codes? In terms of distracting artifax, I think the level of intrusion that a sound anomoly causes is much more overtly distracting than the visiual codes ever were, which, as far as we know, weren't specific to a particular theatre either.
And I still contend that lab copies are much more an economic threat than painfully poor off-screeners. What's more of an economic treat to Rolex, a watch that looks like it's made out of tin or one that can only be identified as a counterfet by an expert with a microscope?
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-08-2008, 12:47 AM:
Yea, the code was inserted about 5minutes into the 3rd reel and about two feet long...around in the scene of lion battle in the arena.
True, it's interesting that the DTS track was untouched during this dropout.
Our Dolby CP500 unit did drop out of digital for a short time and luckilly, no change in sound output.
This info was printed on the back of the attached/loose trailer list that was in the two 'foxboxes' that we received due to us screening of two prints.
-Monte
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 11-08-2008, 01:26 AM:
Wow, let's give people even MORE reasons not to go to the movies- if the theater doesn't mess up the presentation enough, we'll do it for them! Screw the people who actually paid to see the movie, we've got to stop the pirates!!
I think I'll go scratch some distinctive markings into all my DVDs in case someone steals them, then if they try to sell them I'll be able to prove they were mine. If they try to make copies of them they'll have to cut out the parts that are damaged, so I can identify that if I see their copies.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-08-2008, 08:12 AM:
I did a screening of this film and yes the sound drop was right after the "West Side Story" sequence and there was virtually NO audio playing so the drop was rather transparent.
There were two sets of cyan blooping dots (two per set) that obstructed one track...I want to say it was the Right track.
As for DTS...I'm curious...does CDs have the blips on them or perhaps have no audio for that portion to essentially force a drop to analog (even with good time-code)?
Steve
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-08-2008, 11:19 AM:
Are my posts invisible? I just explained how each print is unique. Each print has the analog sound track with gaps o' silence in their own unique pattern.
Are Brad's posts invisible? He explained that he did a test with DTS and it did not drop out.
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-08-2008, 12:01 PM:
quote:
Are my posts invi
?
What?
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 11-08-2008, 12:56 PM:
This continued deliberate ![[sex]](graemlins/sex.gif)
of the soundtrack is yet another example of the self-destructive path this industry has been on for the last 10-15 years.
When will the thick-headed jackalopes at the studios and MPAA wake up and realize that this continued stupidity is driving more people to stay at home and watch the movies on their hi-def TVs and home sound systems that are better than a lot of cinemas?
As mentioned in the Indiana Jones thread, I would cut out the offending beeps and send the piece back to the studio and tell them where they can put it. ![[fu]](graemlins/fu.gif)
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-08-2008, 04:41 PM:
No, your posts are not invisible, but I assure your that with Technicolor's tecnique DTS does NOT drop, but the blip in the sound can be heard the same. Of course the final result is much better since there is no drop in sound.
A Technicolor guy once told me that "we made a better job (!) with DTS".
I really can't understand how a MS-DOS system can overlay these blips on the original soundtrack, and made them different for each print number (I suppose it, otherwise it's useless).
This is about Technicolor's prints. I don't know about deluxe.
Marco
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-08-2008, 05:43 PM:
If that's true, it's probably not the print number getting encoded by DTS, but the serial number of the DTS unit.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-08-2008, 05:55 PM:
Never thought about it, cool.
But do labs have maps of all serial numbers? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
On Technicolor stuff I'm quite sure: while there is "F" on my 650, I can hear the blip in the sound while in DTS.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-08-2008, 07:28 PM:
The entire thing about a dts unit, such as a 6-d putting the blips in the audio is absolute bullshit. Those are pressed discs and every one is identical, and there is no master list of where each player is by serial number anyway. It's called gullible and you fell for it.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-08-2008, 07:49 PM:
Brad, I think the claim is that there is support in newer DTS.EXE files to do this. I don't say whether it is true or not, but it is certainly technically possible.
DTS certainly knows where many (if not most) of their serial numbers were originally. Providing the unit serial number is part of ordering DTS publicity, as well as repair work.
--jhawk
Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 11-08-2008, 08:20 PM:
It occurs to me that if they printed the DTS timecode out of sequence, you might be able to accomplish this behavior. Each DTS frame (30 per second) corresponds to a fixed amount of data rate being pulled from the discs. In normal mode, the frames are sequential from beginning to the end. For most reels, the picture start is around frame 100.
In theory, if at some random point in the reel, the frame ID changed to something at the beginning or the end of the reel, it would cause the processor to 'jump' to that spot in the reel, play the 'poop' audio and when the timecode reverted to the 'proper' spot, the player would simply 'jump' back and keep playing. There should be enough time to perform these jumps without actually dropping out of DTS playback.
Of course, I'm just speculating here. When I screened "Madagascar" and "Indiana Jones" (both in DTS), I heard no audio breaks.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-08-2008, 08:55 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Are my posts invisible? I just explained how each print is unique.
So what you're saying is, it's sort of the aural equivalent of a barcode. Measuring the gaps of silence between the "bars" of sound. Pretty cool idea, too bad they have to screw up shows to do it.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-08-2008, 11:37 PM:
It's worth it to eliminate piracy, Mike. Oh wait, I can still watch ANY movie online within hours of its first midnight showing.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-08-2008, 11:55 PM:
....which still brings up the interesting question: Why isn't the DTS timecode track not effected by all of this security hoopla?
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-09-2008, 03:18 AM:
Why are you saying this Brad? I heard them, I'm not reporting what someone told me, I heard them with my ears.
I was surprised as you but I think you should check before saying that I'm telling bullshits.
I told you I spoke with a Technicolor guy a while ago and he confirmed me that the system is working with both DD and DTS, and that with DTS they was able to make a better job, don't ask me how.
Posted by Craig Dunn (Member # 4232) on 11-09-2008, 09:45 AM:
there were a series of blips deep in the sound field and very high frequency at that time when I saw it. I thought someone to my left was texting and saw no one with a phone out.
It would be a good way to insert a time date stamp into the supposed pirated material with a tone generator. Anyone else notice the nifty new system clock available on the XD10 display since the latest software update? That is assuming the system clock has been set properly.
For an FBI investigator the point becomes to cross reference electronic databases (Credit Card transactions, time date stamps, and published showtimes) to narrow down the possibilities to a few from a few thousand.
Craig Dunn
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-09-2008, 11:03 AM:
Frank, why did you combine different parts of what I wrote to make a sentence I never wrote?
If you missed the context of my statement,
Fred was saying that he didn't like this security measure because the security measure itself doesn't identify the person who copied it and I responded that it wasn't meant to by itself.
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 11-10-2008, 06:46 AM:
All I know is - that I took my kids to see this movie yesterday.
I can tell you exactly where this audio 'glitch' is in the film and it made my movie going experience that much more crappier.
I am going to lodge a complaint with the film company and the distributor. As a manager and as a patron - this little experiment was a complete failure.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-10-2008, 09:35 AM:
quote: Monte L Fullmer
Why isn't the DTS timecode track not effected by all of this security hoopla?
Monte - as has been pointed out, they would have to foul-up the timecode for at least 7 seconds to cause the machine to drop to analog.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-10-2008, 11:08 AM:
quote: Chris Slycord
Frank, why did you combine different parts of what I wrote to make a sentence I never wrote?
Where did I do that? I know you were responding to Fred, but the gest of my post is that if all the sound drop does it tell the bootleg police that a copy originates in a theatre and not from a screener copy so they should then look at the CAP codes, then it's pretty useless. I mean, all they have to do is look at the copy and if it were camcorder deal off the screen, they wouldn't need sound dropping out to tell them that. So they look at the CAP code....do we know for a fact that CAPs supply print-specific or even regional-specific information? I suppose that each lab could insert differnt CAP codes for their prints and if they were to track what theatres get them; that would allow them to at least narrow it down to a smaller number of theatres. Then again, they could conceivably do that with the sound drop-outs -- each lab could put them them in slightly different places in the reel or even in different reels. Something like that could be tracked to specific geographical areas or even to specific chains.
But this is all wild speculation of what information these security measures are capable embedding and then delivering, not what we know is factual; obviously the studios think they will work to help them in some fashion. The real question that we've been asking and rightfully so -- do these devices actually catch anyone or at the very least identify problem areas? More importantly for exhibitors, do the studios re-evaluate these systems for their effectiveness and in a timely manner?
If they don't (what makes me think they don't?), then the studios are just adding more and more degredation to the theatre experience without significant results, and at the expense of the exhibitor. Of course that doesn't hurt the studios as much as it hurts their exhibitor "partners" -- you know, the partners who were asked what they thought of putting sound-dropouts in the middle of their presentations. I guess the exhibitor "partners" must have agreeded to this, eh?
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 11-10-2008, 12:04 PM:
the "CAP" code or whatever they call it now is done by an optical device in the final print production lab film printers. each print has a unique code.
no particular region code is needed as each print, presumably each reel of each print, is identifiable.
the audio code is, i agree, totally pointless. and much more annoying than the visual code, except when the scene density is such that the code marks are horribly distracting.
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-10-2008, 12:26 PM:
OK... I'll toss this out, then duck for cover.
I just finished installing an Arbitron encoder system at a local radio station's transmitter site.
The encoded signal hides behind some sort of psychoacoustic masking scheme, making it possible (even with the limitations of AM radio) for a handheld device to track the stations you listen to, merely by having the device within the same listening distance to the radio that you are.
In A/B tests, I haven't been able to detect what the encoder is doing. It has to be within the audible domain, as it's in the transmitter's audio chain... no fancy footwork with the RF section. There's also a monitor at the studio, which is hooked up to the air audio, and shows a visual indicator (green/red) of the encoder's status.
Arbitron can do a real-time test with the station, merely by having someone hold a telephone near the station's off-air monitor, or even a cheap radio.
So, my question is this. If Arbitron can encode a reliable, station-specific indicator within the narrow audio bandwidth of an AM broadcast, why can't something like this be done with a movie soundtrack?
Seems like something like this could work, even with films cam-corded in an auditorium. Then, you could dispense with the disruptive audio reversions, blinking dots on the screen, and even possibly the wanding, cell-phone confiscations and night-scope monitoring that we endure at exhibitor screenings.
Too easy, maybe?
On the other hand, maybe I just answered my own question.
As Brad said, the DTS disks are mass-produced. Every one is the same. You can even copy them at another theatre, should you get a print without one. Really, only the audio actually printed on the film travels with the print.
Maybe... the studios ARE using something like the Arbitron system, and have to revert the audio to what's printed on the film in order to read the code.
Ah... but that wouldn't explain reverting the SRD track... unless the powers-that-be were cheap, and only elected to encode one track... but of course, that couldn't be the case.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-10-2008, 12:57 PM:
It's pretty simple, actually, Jack. The Arbritron system doesn't have to worry about being recorded and compressed into a very small bandwidth channel by multiple different compression codecs. Or with people trying to remove the signal.
But the studios do have to worry about both of those problems.
--jhawk
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 11-10-2008, 01:01 PM:
I called Deluxe today, to file an official complaint. Here is what I was told:
"It was a technical glitch that affected all 35 mm prints of Madagascar 2, there was a note in the can"
When I mentioned how I was aware of features being released in the past with the piracy deterent, but we had no audio problems, I was told this:
"A mistake was made at the lab, and since we did not want to spend the money to replace all the reel 3's, we put the note in the can - we apologize and will do better next time"
So bascially, the 'glitch' occured because a screw up happened when they were attempting to put the audio cap code on the print.
I want my money back dammit. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-10-2008, 03:41 PM:
Oh that's just awesome. I wish you would have recorded that conversation. Basically it's Deluxe admitting that they are complete imbeciles who don't mind ruining movies with no repercussions from the studio at all. Of course they are lying to you, but still, that's hilarious.
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-10-2008, 03:51 PM:
"It was a technical glitch"
Shitspeak for: "Like I care! Now piss off and leave me alone."
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-10-2008, 06:21 PM:
quote: Frank Angel
Where did I do that?
If 5 different movies were found that all were captured at your theater, Of course it doesn't identify the perpetrator: IT ISN'T MEANT TO.
The above contains words I wrote, but placed together into a sentence that I never wrote yet you put it in a "quote" tag as if you were quoting someone.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-11-2008, 05:25 AM:
I first noted Technicolor anti-piracy on Harry Potter, not the last one, the previous one.
That time I asked for the reason of these drops, I was told every time that it was a print glitch and that was not intentional.
Then I spoke with someone that explained me the real purpose of that shit.
And finally I was able to speak with Technicolor. They explained me that the system must be heard since the pirates (!) will record the movies with normal recorder, so an anti-piracy system has to be in the audio badwidth but not at its extreme, since these kind of devices cannot record them.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-11-2008, 09:45 AM:
I watched the movie last night and wasn't able to hear the sound drop to analog, if it occurred. If it happens during a "dialogue only" scene, that's not surprising but if it happens when there's a lot of surround action or loud noise, I probably would have heard it.
Maybe there are prints where this "defect" is not included? We didn't get the note in the can, either (well we got the note, but only the trailer listing...the backside of it was blank).
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 11-11-2008, 11:02 AM:
quote: Marco Giustini
And finally I was able to speak with Technicolor. They explained me that the system must be heard since the pirates (!) will record the movies with normal recorder, so an anti-piracy system has to be in the audio badwidth but not at its extreme, since these kind of devices cannot record them.
Then, don't we get back to the quality of a camcorded copy? If you have a properly tuned SR system, and the levels are fairly equal, seems the microphone in a common camcorder would have trouble picking up the difference.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-11-2008, 12:39 PM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
I watched the movie last night and wasn't able to hear the sound drop to analog....
Since Mark keeps you well in tune, you won't hear it, but have to be upstairs by the processor during this reel and see when the processor switch the formats is when you will notice the difference....if you're playing SRD, don't know about DTS yet since my experience was with SRD and found the section of film that was altered.
Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 11-11-2008, 01:47 PM:
quote: Jack Ondracek
Then, don't we get back to the quality of a camcorded copy? If you have a properly tuned SR system, and the levels are fairly equal, seems the microphone in a common camcorder would have trouble picking up the difference.
The actual ID is encoded as very short drop-outs in the analog which (in theory) are inaudible to people due to various psycoacoustical effects, like auditory masking.
Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 11-11-2008, 07:29 PM:
Why don't the studios just send the theaters 6 or 8 reels of blank leader? That way there would be no chance that anyone could copy anything. If anyone in the theater complains that all they are seeing is a blank white screen, just tell them they need new glasses.
It is very bad business sense to turn your product into crap. That kind of stupidity has put many companies out of business.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-12-2008, 10:29 AM:
Chris, this is a cut and paste of your words that I put as a quote in my post quoting you; it was done by a direct cut and past: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If 5 different movies were found that all were captured at your theater, Of course it doesn't identify the perpetrator: IT ISN'T MEANT TO.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is what you are saying is an erronious quote; I am looking at word for word, letter for letter. If you see a difference or an edit somewhere, I don't.
quote: Chris Slycord
If 5 different movies were found that all were captured at your theater, Of course it doesn't identify the perpetrator: IT ISN'T MEANT TO.
The above contains words I wrote, but placed together into a sentence that I never wrote yet you put it in a "quote" tag as if you were quoting someone.
I am confused.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-12-2008, 10:48 AM:
Frank: Better look again. The original cut'n'paste you did (from post #8 on page 2) was indeed all Chris's words, but you rearranged two sentences into one and created a meandering, improperly capitalized sentence that is probably driving him nuts. (I know it would me!)
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 11-12-2008, 11:10 AM:
They should stop beating around the bush. Just totally mute the audio, and come-in on the soundtrack at the "encoding" point with:
[click!][feedback SQUEEEEAL!]
"PRINT FOURTEEN! THIS IS PRINT FOURTEEN!"
[/click!]
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-12-2008, 11:19 AM:
Solution for movie theft:
1. Make the penalty "death"
2. Catch one or two movie thieves and execute them
3. Problem will mostly disappear
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-13-2008, 01:13 PM:
Apologies to Chris...now I see (thanks Mike). Somehow got cut & paste got fouled.
quote: Mike Blakesley
Solution for movie theft:
1. Make the penalty "death"
2. Catch one or two movie thieves and execute them
3. Problem will mostly disappear
Not if they are Alquida
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-13-2008, 02:38 PM:
quote:
They should stop beating around the bush. Just totally mute the audio, and come-in on the soundtrack at the "encoding" point with:
[click!][feedback SQUEEEEAL!]
"PRINT FOURTEEN! THIS IS PRINT FOURTEEN!"
[/click!]
I like it. ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
While they're at it they can offset the cost to add this to the prints by reminding patrons that the concession stand is open and ready to provide tasty treats...maybe even the latest lotto results. The possibilities are endless.
It's a winner.
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-13-2008, 02:42 PM:
I'm so glad we use DTS here!
Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 11-13-2008, 06:40 PM:
I have a simpler suggestion for them that would preserve the content of the actual movie and would use otherwise wasted film: have the theaters stop cutting heads and tails off the reels. That way all the various reel and print IDs will be made perfectly visible on screen multiple times during the show without disrupting the viewing experience.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-13-2008, 08:43 PM:
Yeah, and think of the labor savings! And no more arguing about ID frames either.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-13-2008, 09:47 PM:
quote: Frank Angel
Apologies to Chris...now I see (thanks Mike). Somehow got cut & paste got fouled.
No problem. The reason I was most confused was that the two parts you pasted were fairly unrelated statements.
Posted by Jason Whyte (Member # 1433) on 11-14-2008, 09:06 AM:
And yet even after all of this, Madagascar 2 still got camcorded in some theater somewhere, it was ripped online and is easily available to download through the torrent site of your choice. I wonder if the studio found the offending cinema through the audio blips and cap codes. Doubt it...
Mission failed.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-14-2008, 10:03 AM:
quote: Jason Whyte
Doubt it...
Mission failed.
Don't be so quick. It's too soon to know. The NATO camcord report for last week isn't out yet.
The camcord report does not list exactly how the perps were caught - it only lists if the theatre was "found out" by direct seizure of the camera or by download. So there's no way for us to know if the audio crap is helping or not.
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-14-2008, 10:28 AM:
There's a NATO camcorder report?
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-14-2008, 10:43 AM:
Yes, it comes out weekly and lists the title, date, and location where the camcord occurred, and it highlights any "new" camcord locations.
If you are a member you can get it emailed to you.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-14-2008, 02:15 PM:
Saw the Deluxe antipiracy on 007 today, reel 4.
What a nonsense... during the airplane scene, during a very loud moment, my 650 drop to analog for a very long time, say 10 seconds.
I suppose that even a very well maintained SR system cannot beat digital sound in very loud scenes... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 11-14-2008, 11:43 PM:
quote: Jason Whyte
Mission Accomplished.
Fixed.
I found this to be distracting, but less so that what we had on Dark Knight. That one had three or so offending spots, which dropped out to a very poorly mixed analog track for quite a bit longer. The assistant manager at that theater called and demanded a replacement reel, and after a bit of hoopla and several very critical phone conversations, we got it, but not until thousands of our customers had been subjected to it. This was with Dark Knight playing with a CP650 and Cat. 701. In Madagascar, which I saw in a theater with a CP55, DA20 and Cat. 701, it was relatively faint, despite being in a loud action sequence. I was probably the only person in the audience to notice it, but I wasn't even listening for it. I still think that studios and labs should be producing content for the most critical audience possible, which is likely projectionists in this case. Since this did not fly under this projectionists radar, I unilaterally condemn it.
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 11-15-2008, 05:14 AM:
Just as a matter of principle I should start illegally copying the official DVDs of these movies when they come out. Of course then they might start messing THOSE up for the paying customers too!
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-15-2008, 05:56 AM:
I don't think Batman had that anti-piracy audio coding on it. This is however a very convenient situation for the labs, as when people have a problem they are going to start automatically ASSUMING that the problem with the sound is the anti-piracy coding and permit their presentations to be further degraded.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-15-2008, 06:28 AM:
Correct.
They will never replace any reel 3 of Madagascar 2 for audio issues. Even if the issue is not related to anti piracy.
And some theater will assume that any sound issue reported by the customers is due to anti piracy.
Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 11-15-2008, 08:37 AM:
quote: Marco Giustini
And some theater will assume that any sound issue reported by the customers is due to anti piracy.
Worse still, they will tell the customers that any audio problem is anti-piracy rather than admit something is wrong with their presentation (or fixing it).
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 11-15-2008, 11:11 AM:
Well, Brad, if Dark Knight didn't have it, two things are true. First of all, Deluxe's lab work is even worse than I believed, and my belief was that it was not good. And secondly, they have trained their people to do just that, and tell people whenever there is something wrong that it is an intentional anti-piracy measure. The only thing to be gained here is animosity towards them, which could lead to empathy for pirates, as per Jesse's tongue in cheek statement. I happen to take piracy very personally (or I would, if some jackass would just give me the opportunity), but I also take people intentionally screwing up my presentation personally.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-15-2008, 03:13 PM:
Galen, you need to get your facts straight. Stop blaming "Deluxe's lab work" for your defective Batman print. Warner Bros is the studio that made Batman and they strike their prints at Techniclor LAB. Just because you got the print sent to you from the Deluxe SHIPPING DEPOT means nothing in this discussion.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-15-2008, 03:41 PM:
I'm confused. Any normal business that sells a defective product is obligated (both legally and morally) to replace it with a non-defective product. If I buy a toaster and it doesn't work, I can return it to the store with my receipt; they will then either replace it with a working one or give me a refund. Why is that that labs and distributors aren't subject to this same (minimal) standard?
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-15-2008, 04:32 PM:
More importantly, why isn't Dolby doing anything about this? I can understand Sony not caring in regards to their all-but-dead SDDS format, but I find it sad that Dolby is permitting the labs to deliberately destroy their product.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-15-2008, 08:51 PM:
Last time I heard them they were trying to do something.
In the meantime Disney stopped using this anti-piracy, so perhaps the future will be better.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-15-2008, 08:56 PM:
quote: Marco Giustini
Last time I heard them they were trying to do something.
Who did you hear it from? Sounds like a rumor.
Posted by Galen Murphy-Fahlgren (Member # 4535) on 11-15-2008, 11:24 PM:
Brad, you're right, my mistake. I have had more issues with Deluxe prints, so my default thought when I get bad lab work is "Deluxe." Thank you for pointing that out.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-16-2008, 12:14 AM:
Knowing Dolby's long history of improving theatre sound and the committment to this goal that we all are familiar with, from their product support to their detailed manuals which are as educational as they are practical for the booth personnel, I can't believe they will not have serious issues with this nonsense.
Since every film that is released with Dolby sound, be it digital or analog, must be licensed from Dolby and must meet strict Dolby parameters. It can't be a Dolby track if it deviates from those specs. For a studio to purposely introduce dropouts and mess up the Dolby track I would imagine violates their agreement. Dolby can easily say that they will not license a Dolby track if the intent of the studio, for whatever reason, security or not, is to mess with the spec.
Dolby is in a position to demand that the Dolby spec be followed or they don't get to use Dolby sound. Seeing as how without a Dolby license this would mean the studio gets to have only DTS and Sony for digital and UltraStereo for analog, it might change their minds about this kind of "CAP" for sound. See how that sits with the MPAA members.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-16-2008, 02:38 AM:
quote: Galen Murphy-Fahlgren
work is "Deluxe."
...why I still call it ETS instead of DFS .. too many "DeLuxes" around here...
Posted by Max Biela (Member # 1919) on 11-16-2008, 04:50 AM:
Brad,
DTS definitely cuts out at the same time. Maybe the situation is different in Europe? If you complain about sound dropouts on your print you get a replacement reel without the code but DTS will still drop to SR at the same time even if there isn't any code on the SR track and SRD/SDDS play flawlessly. As the Timecode is perfectly fine on both prints the discs must contain the information when to switch to SR, just like they switch to Non-Sync or a certain backup format.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-16-2008, 05:37 AM:
Chris
No, it's not a rumor. I was in touch with them some time ago when I contacted them about the SRD sountrack issue we had here on almost all prints.
Max
Perhaps not all prints are the same in the world, but I have no drops from DTS during this CAP, Deluxe or Technicolor is the same.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-16-2008, 12:10 PM:
Hey Max,
I think things are definitely different where you are. Your markings are also a little bit different than ours.
Last spring I ran an Indiana Jones print in dts with no other sound format for backup (no SRD, analog, etc). I quite literally powered them off so if there was a drop in dts, it would've been obvious.
I sat there and watched the entire thing. There was no drop.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-16-2008, 01:47 PM:
I thought if a feature had DTS timecode, then all prints had timecode. Are there really timecode-free prints made?
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-16-2008, 07:37 PM:
quote: Brad Miller
Last spring I ran an Indiana Jones print in dts with no other sound format for backup (no SRD, analog, etc). I quite literally powered them off so if there was a drop in dts, it would've been obvious.
I sat there and watched the entire thing. There was no drop.
You just did that so you'd have an excuse to watch Indy 4 again without people thinking you were weird.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-16-2008, 08:53 PM:
I watched the movie again today with my wife and some friends and tried really hard to hear the dropout....did not hear it. So I think either there are some dropout-free prints out there and we got one, or Mark G. did a great job of tuning up our sound system the last time.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-16-2008, 11:31 PM:
You let Mark G touch your sound system? How much disinfectant have you gone through? Have you gotten rid of the smell yet?
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-17-2008, 02:47 AM:
I did the same with an SRD house: got their system tuned to where that section of film, and it drop out for a few to optical, was not noticable to the manager on playback of that house when it did switch to optical then back to SRD. And that manager is a stickler for audio quality.
And if Mike and this manager didn't hear any different during the optical moment, this is how sound is supposed to be tuned - no difference between optical and digital.
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-17-2008, 04:36 AM:
Then what is the point of digital?
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-17-2008, 06:46 AM:
I watched the beginning of reel 4 of 007 yesterday, that has the same anti-piracy from deluxe.
Actually, I must admit that - despite I knew of the drops - I was not able to hear almost anything. The only one of the three I noted was the one that has been put when an airplane blow up: you expect for some dynamic and loud explosion and you hear something that lacks of them, but that was just was I was able to hear.
I have CP650 and dolby level is correct: drops are unaudible on that software version of 650. With older processors the drops will become more clear for sure.
I don't mean to giustify the AP system of course.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-17-2008, 08:25 AM:
So where is the security information? WHAT is the security information? Is there some sort of audio code imbedded in the analog track that can be later identified when analizing the bootleg audio? If so, then why can't that be embedded in the digital track? Could the actual placement of the dropout be unique? Some sort of way they have of shutting off the printing light at a specific set of frames to correspond to the print number? Or does the dropout happen at the exact same place in every print? If a theatre just played SR for the whole film, would that thwart the security system? It certainly would thwart the droppout distraction. How bout NATO telling THAT to the MPAA -- any print that we find which has digital dropouts, for whatever reason, we will play the entire film in analog only. Then send out a press release saying "Paramount sending out prints of MADAQASCAR 2 with defective digital soundtracks -- theatres have no choice but to play the film in analog sound." See how that PR debacal sits with them.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-17-2008, 08:58 AM:
Frank, I believe earlier someone had said they were told that the "code" was that there were inaudible changes in the sound wave that included a security bit that would be noticeable on a scope when played back. Might be similar to how you can take a jpg image and hide another image/file inside it and only a computer forensics person would know the difference.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-17-2008, 09:17 AM:
There are pictures in the thread titled "Audio CAP on Indy", but I don't have the time to link to it right now. YES each analog track has a morse code-sort-of-thing to it depending on where they burn in the blips. I still don't see how it will work on a camcorder rig in a theater due to acoustics.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-17-2008, 09:30 AM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Then what is the point of digital?
The only thing I can figure is, if the drop occurs on our print, it's during a dialog scene. It's really hard to tell the difference there...but if there had been a lot of music/explosions/surround effects going on I would have heard it fer sure.
Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 11-17-2008, 12:17 PM:
quote: Frank Angel
If so, then why can't that be embedded in the digital track?
It can't be embedded in the digital track because then the digital track would have to be individually encoded for each print. It doesn't take much to black out some of the SRD and SDDS track and then make lines over the analog track.
In digital cinema, security info can be (and probably is) embedded into the audio track and the picture but it is done individually at the playback server level. They call it forensic watermarking in the DCI spec.
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-17-2008, 12:30 PM:
Which, amusingly, is something that the DTS and the Dolby Digital processors could both very easily do (if they were programmed to do so) without dropping to analog. Again, you don't need the print number, you only need the serial number of the unit. It wouldn't take long to track the unit down. You would still need to do the print number on the analog track though. No other way to track that.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-17-2008, 01:55 PM:
quote: Joe Redifer
Then what is the point of digital?
..just another fad that people can go "WOW!" on .... just that we don't need to wear any add-ons to hear this "WOW!" as with 3D.
For if SR is tuned just right, it can also sound pretty wicked. Just that you don't get the 90dB + range spectrum with optical as with digital..and that added headroom is the "WOW!" factor.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-20-2008, 09:01 PM:
Well I broke down our Madagascar print tonight and thought I would try to find the soundtrack bloops in Reel 3....and there they were, within less than a minute of the head of the reel. The Dolby soundtrack had a cyan-colored line going thru it -- looked like a magic marker line, and the SDDS track had a similar mark. I do think it was during a dialog scene so that must explain why I didn't hear the drop-out. Or else our sound system is crappy, but I don't think that's the case, I hope.
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-20-2008, 09:48 PM:
We have this in one of our prints of 'Quantum Of Solace'. Great position...right in the middle of the plane fight scene. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I watched it go through the projector...looks every bit as nasty as the one in that Magnetic-Headed Aliens film.
I'll have to check our second print to see if it's there too.
If you can't do what they're doing and still keep it in SRD, then what are they doing with digital copies?
Also, I wonder what the Directors think of all this? He makes a good action sequence and goes to a bit of trouble doing so...only to have the sound fucked up on purpose!
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-20-2008, 10:09 PM:
Do directors even go to movies with a real audience anymore? If so, I'll bet there are special prints made for those venues.
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-20-2008, 10:34 PM:
The 'Quantum' print in question was screened with both Marc Forster and Daniel Craig in attendance for the Australian premiere.
Of course they went in...but whether they stayed or not I have no idea.
Posted by Blaine Young (Member # 3992) on 11-21-2008, 12:21 PM:
quote: Max Biela
DTS definitely cuts out at the same time. Maybe the situation is different in Europe? If you complain about sound dropouts on your print you get a replacement reel without the code but DTS will still drop to SR at the same time even if there isn't any code on the SR track and SRD/SDDS play flawlessly. As the Timecode is perfectly fine on both prints the discs must contain the information when to switch to SR, just like they switch to Non-Sync or a certain backup format.
If the whole idea is to be able to track where the illegal recording was made, a security code included on the discs wouldn't make any sense, unless they send a different set of discs to each theater - which they don't do. I'm thinking there is something wrong with your particular set of discs which is causing the DTS player to drop out. I've had instances with discs where part of the reel will drop out because the disc cannot be read.
Posted by Max Biela (Member # 1919) on 11-21-2008, 12:29 PM:
Blain,
we've got 4 prints and 4 sets of discs playing on 4 or more different screens. Every single one drops out exactly at the same time.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-21-2008, 03:39 PM:
Seems to me that Deluxe fixed its antipiracy system this way... Since they were not able to have DTS to reproduce that crap, they have it to drop to analog.
My main concern is that, at least on 6D, a DTS drop is much more noticeable rather than an SR drop from a 650. Three sequential drops DTS-SR would be terrible.
I'm sure that our 007 prints does not drop during airplane sequence. Let's see what will happen in the future.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-21-2008, 06:43 PM:
Directors do go to movies. Even in the days of Kodak CAP, there were some directors (one big name individual, in particular) who noticed the CAP codes and were very bothered by them (and those were the CAP codes that almost no one noticed, and whose very existence was disputed and questioned...).
On the other hand, Craig and Forstner have appeared at piles of QoS premieres. Craig appeared (mostly with girlfriend Satsuki Mitchell, though sometimes with co-star Olga Kurlyenko) at these premieres:
Sydney on 11/15
Tribeca (NYC) on 11/11
Rome on 11/5
Berlin on 11/3
Paris on 10/30
London on 10/29
Moscow on 10/13 (a "photo call", perhaps not a premiere?)
I can't believe he watched it all of those times...
John, did your QoS showprint have the visible (picture) CAP on R4?
--jhawk
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-21-2008, 06:49 PM:
I'll take a look at it over the weekend and let you know.
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-21-2008, 07:01 PM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
Do directors even go to movies with a real audience anymore? If so, I'll bet there are special prints made for those venues.
Terence Davies was at the screening of his new film 'Of Time and the City' that I went to at the Phoenix Cinema in East Finchley a couple of weeks ago. No print involved though, it was shown digitally. He was due to attend screenings at several other cinemas.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-21-2008, 07:51 PM:
Well with the fairly large membership here, whenever one of us is anywhere near a director at any of these screenings and they have a Q&A session, we should make it a point to ask them how they feel about the distributor putting foreign visible and audible artifax on the screen and on the soundtrack with there film. Ask if they are aware of it and if they approved of it. If enough of them are pressed about it and the level of awareness is raised by the really bigshot directors and they start vigorously objecting, perhaps something might be done.
They may be aware of the CRAP codes, but in truth, compared to sound drop outs and thuds in the track, CAPs are nowhere near as obtrusive or distracting, maybe slightly more than c/o cues are (which I also think would do well to be eliminated, or at most, put only at the end of R3 and R6 if need be).
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 11-21-2008, 09:27 PM:
Realistically, how many directors out there have the power to decree "Thou shalt not CRAP my movie!"? Presumably that would have to be a contractual thing.
Posted by Craig Dunn (Member # 4232) on 11-23-2008, 10:08 AM:
Color me cynical...
It appears that the production companies abhor the exhibitor.
An ages old debate and not to switch the topic.
I am all for the protection of creative licenses, but if a book had intentional typos to off set a xerox machines copying sensitivities, wouldn't that diminish the value of their product?
The studios set their regional ticket price schemes (lowest price acceptable) based on preserving the "value" of their product, and keeping the exhibitor from adjusting a fair price for the over developed P.O.S. print the distributor refuses to replace reels for. Absorbing the cost of placating the customer in the process and protecting the giants from the consequences.
I believe that digital presentation is going to just put the studios in charge of a larger bracket of exhibitor operations, with leveraged price controls, and studio approved show placements and schedules.
With digital presentation how are they going to drop the soundtrack to "SR" when there isn't one? Will the subject change? (Obfuscation is really what is going on here, I believe)
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-23-2008, 10:22 AM:
quote: Craig Dunn
It appears that the production companies abhor the exhibitor.
No, they just assume that the vast majority of "suits" that control huge chains haven't set foot in one of their own auditoriums for a show with an audience in years. If there are complaints, the managers, not the suits, hear them; and they are trained to respond with the BS "it's a piracy deterrent" or "it's a lab mistake" lines, and the complaint never reaches anyone who might do something about it.
If those suits raised hell about this, it would stop.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-24-2008, 05:11 AM:
Those suits in the form of NATO. Does NATO do ANYTHING useful....EVER? Why are they never in the forefront of issues like this?
I posted this in the Feature Info and Trailer Attachments then realized it was getting too close to chit-chat so it goes here.
The director, Baz Luhrmann, put a note in the film cans of his film AUSTRAILIA which seemed to show his concern that his film be shown correctly. So I quoted him and commented:
quote:
The sound for the film is available on all three digital formats, Dolby Digital, DTS, and SDDS, with a Dolby SR analog back up and hope that you will enjoy the film its digital sound format played the proper 7 setting on the Dolby reading which equals 85 db.
I really appreciate this effort as it means so much that the audience gets the full benefit of the staging, projection and sound. Baz Luhrmann
Hmmm, I wonder if Baz Luhrmann knows that there are going to be CRAP dots all over his film and that the digital sound will drop out to the "backup SR track" from time to time and make thud noises. I wonder if he thinks this is will "benefit the audience getting the full benefit of the projection and sound."
It's just concerned directors like this one who need to yelp about this ever increasing security intrusion on the film experience. Obviously he cares about his film, and since Fox thinks he's an "amazing creative genius"....surely they would listen to him if he made a big enough stink. Maybe.
[ 11-24-2008, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]
Posted by Kat Baggett (Member # 1154) on 11-27-2008, 12:57 PM:
Anybody having this problem with Twilight? Or am I the only one with this problem, there is nothing worse than a full theatre full of teenage girls getting pissed off....sometimes it makes me wish i was back at the hotel.
Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 11-27-2008, 01:55 PM:
Wait...customers noting CAP code on their own? While perhaps not a first, it's definitely not something that happens a lot. Tell us more!
--jhawk
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 11-27-2008, 02:50 PM:
Hold up, somewhere in a thread is me mentioning the customers who came out of a movie (One of the Tyler Perry ones)swearing up and down that we were running a 'bootleg' print of the movie. When I ask the two ladies what made them draw that conclusion, they proceeded to say:
"We know it's a bootleg cause we kept seeing a bunch of red dots every once in a while".
![[beer]](graemlins/beer.gif)
Hats off to whoever invented Crap Code. (NOT)
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-27-2008, 04:03 PM:
Kat
Same problem with twilight. If you SR is perfectly tuned you should not notice much difference.
In my case, I have CAP on broken mirrors scenes and the sound is clearly distorted in the auditorium. No level issue: I didn't note the switch, just the distortion and I'm positive that my SR is working well since on 007 I did not had any distortion at all.
Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 11-30-2008, 11:32 AM:
For all of the screaming and yelling going on here (and I agree with it), isn't it evident that the distribs are not going to do a damned thing about it?
Sorry to say, I think we can look forward to more of this nonsence in the future. Hopefully, somewhere in time they will be successful in thwarthing piracy.
In the meantime, while I am putting new prints together, I can continue to listen to some of our employees tell me that the title of the print I am working on is already available for download on the internet.
Very sad.
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-30-2008, 12:53 PM:
John; all this proves is that YOU are not the source, no matter what the MPAA says!! LOuis
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-30-2008, 02:19 PM:
Funny part is that this audio cap code is so easy to find, that any "inside" pirate working at a theater only needs to bootleg the film without the analog sound on. No person downloading the film over the internet will be angry that there is no audio for about 10 seconds of the movie. Seriously, nobody will care.
A "professional theater insider" could always use various audio tools to change the waveform of the analog track too with probably very little effort for those dropout sections.
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