Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What is the oldest projector you are running?

This is topic What is the oldest projector you are running? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009602

Posted by Louis Belloisy (Member # 3836) on 11-08-2008, 01:02 PM:

We have two very nice Victoria 4 E's. Manufacture date for the both is February of 1968 by Cinemeccnica of Milan Italy.
We also have the original lamphouse with the glass reflectors.

Units play in analog only with converted sound heads. Both are trouble free and the easiest to thread for new projectionists. Lamps were originally 1000 watt, now converted to 1600 watts.

We also have 4 simplex units made in the mid 1980's, no where as reliable as the Victorias.

We just recently got rid of two Victoria 5's due to lack of parts and lack of reliability.

Louis

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-08-2008, 01:13 PM:

I ran a quad of V4E units in a twin that was still 6k reel with auto changeover setup in the early 70's. Units were using 1600w bulbs in that vertical setup.

Later on, UA bought this twin in 1976 and split it to make a 4plex. the Cinemeccanica units were also split up to accept AW2 platters.

True, wonderful machines, but remember that they were leakers since they used the XL oil bath setup. Yet, never had any problems with their either.

In 1977, I graduated up to V5's and problems began with the belt breakage on occasion at a 3plex that also the 4X4, 13k reel tower.

In 1984, I moved up to a 4plex playing with another quad of V5's with the same belt problems. At least the platters were very reliable (DrIn LP-270s)

In 1991, back to another twin with V8's with the V18 setup with the 13k reel rear transport along with Strong AP3 platters - kinda a dual transport availability.

But, mainly did Simplex - from Standard to Mil2k machines.

-Monte

Posted by Louis Belloisy (Member # 3836) on 11-08-2008, 01:44 PM:

Yes, Monte, I forgo to mention that they leak badly. We never have to change the oil, since we are always adding new oil. I have an oil mat around both units to catch the errant oil.

lou

Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 11-08-2008, 02:47 PM:

Currently running a SH-1000 soundhead manufactured in 1939. Also have a pair of Century "C" heads probably made right after World War II. All equipment used daily and is extremely reliable. No 15 year life expectancy ratings here. [Razz]

Posted by Catalin Balaceanu (Member # 3712) on 11-08-2008, 03:18 PM:

I use two 1967 romanian made projectors. They were produced by a company called I.O.R. which nowadays they make military and medical optics.

The projectors were updated with analog SR sound, soon to be upgraded with Dolby Digital and SDDS, plus Schneider-Kreuznach optics, after our building renovation will be finished.
What I like about these two projectors, is that they are very quite; even though they have gears and not belts, they purr like a cat...and they don't leak any oil, what so ever.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-08-2008, 05:14 PM:

V5 parts are hard to find? I thought that the projector was a current-production item, which should mean that parts are readily available.

The oldest equipment that I've run would be a pair of Centurys on Western Electric bases/soundeads with Brenkert Enarc lamphouses. The soundheads and lamphouses are from 1938 (original to the theatre) and the picture heads are from the 1950s. This equipment is in daily use. I've also run Super Simplex heads from the 1930s on RCA 9030 soundheads (1950s?) in a different theatre.

The newest equipment that I've run would be a pair of Kinoton FP-30Ds built in 2006.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 11-08-2008, 05:18 PM:

In general, I prefer gears to belts.

We are installing SH-1000 and Century C in a 3 screen add on to an existing 11 plex. Using the Kelmar auto turret and Dolby Digital basement readers. All 14 are the same, very reliable, overhauled by Hadden. Would pass for new, except no reliability problems.

In the Indianapolis Museum of Art, "black" XL's with XL gear driven soundheads.

Nothing above is any newer than 1960; could be from the early 1940s onward.

Sound/automation/xenon is new. Louis

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-08-2008, 06:19 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
The oldest equipment that I've run would be a pair of Centurys on Western Electric bases/soundeads with Brenkert Enarc lamphouses. The soundheads and lamphouses are from 1938 (original to the theatre) and the picture heads are from the 1950s. This equipment is in daily use.

Scott,

Is this at the Avon? If so, one of our lecturers is from RI and knows the place, though he's lived in the UK for many years now.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 11-08-2008, 06:57 PM:

Right now we're running a pair of XL PR1003s made in mid '52 each has an SH1000 from late '41.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-08-2008, 07:09 PM:

I have never had issues getting parts for any cinemecanica product
If the belts are replaced yearly and the proper speed control to control start and stop ramps are used they don't break belts or loose gearboxes

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-08-2008, 09:41 PM:

Stephen -- yes, that would be at the Avon.

I should also add that there are many Century Cs still in service in many theatres and most (all?) of those would date from the 1950s or earlier.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 11-08-2008, 11:36 PM:

My personal projector is an XL with serial number 128, the Black IPC model. It runs super smooth and quiet. Rock steady image and it doesn't leak oil.

Wasn't there a thread somewhere here that listed the serial number ranges for Simplex?

I knew Howard Strait (I hope I got the last name right) one of the chief folks responsible for the XL and some other Simplex gear. He was a wonderful person and a genius when it came to working on Simplex.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-09-2008, 06:12 AM:

There's plenty of pre-CinemaScope Westars round here, you cna spot them easily, Mobel A or B, low serial number and all manner of file marks round the lens hole in the casting where it was modified for 'Scope. That puts such machines pre 1952 I think.

One in the Cameo in Edinburgh has some paperwork dated 1955, still running beautifully. It's been updated somewhat, CE reverse scan, curved gate and timing belt primary drive replaced the twin vee belts and chain.

Posted by Jeff Stricker (Member # 224) on 11-09-2008, 06:52 AM:

In my hamshack/screening room still running my Brenkert BX-40 from 1940 and Simplex SH-1000 soundhead from 1941. [thumbsup]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-09-2008, 09:14 AM:

Although I don't run film I service over a dozen Super Simplex's, an E-7, and many Brenkert BX series that are still in use on my service routes. All will very likely last until the end of film which is just a very short while away.

Mark

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 11-09-2008, 10:25 AM:

For several years I ran a changeover booth with a pair of
ancient E7's which dated back to the early 1930s, SH-1000
soundheads, Brenkert Eniarc carbon arc lamps, on the old
Western Electric Vitaphone bases (the vitaphone turntables
were still in the basement- - just in case it ever came back [Big Grin]

)
and a mostly all orignal WE-ERPI amp and sound system.

The oldest projector I'm currently running is a Century that
dates to the early 1940's. And it runs GREAT. It's one of
my favorite machines. Very smooth & quiet since all the
gears are comfortably 'worn in"

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 11-09-2008, 11:43 PM:

The cinema I work at opened in 1938, however the only piece of equipment that remains prior to the 1960's is a Western Electric selenium rectifier that was obviously too large to remove.

The current equipment I use is early 60's vintage Rank RK-60's 81780, 82428 and 8822. These were the old type cast iron with 6000 ft magazines, Oddly enough, there was very little attempt to mask the fact these were Vic 8's as the motor has a Cinemeccanica plate and the projector door actually has Victoria 8 on it. Mag soundheads are absent but on-site.

Also just out of curiosity, who (apart from me) still has only manual rewinds?

Posted by Tuomas Merila (Member # 4578) on 11-11-2008, 01:30 AM:

Hello,

It seems that these ones are not old at all compared to some mentioned here, but probably old enough... I occasionally run and maintain a pair of Victoria IV/E:s that were installed in 1954. Nowadays, they are only used for about 20 hours per year by a film festival I work for. They still mostly work like a dream - although they do leak quite a lot of oil, and occasionally we have suffered breakage of some hard-to-find cast metal parts while threading the machines.

The light on these machines is produced by Cinemeccanica Zenith IV carbon arcs (non-rectified type), and until a year ago we still ran using the original 30 watt Cinemeccanica tube amplifier, which now has been upgraded to "ultra modern" Dolby CP65A and red led exciter lamp replacement.

We also have a pair of later vintage (60's) IV/E:s with Zenith V lamphouses that were purchased for use as parts donors but they are surprisingly different from these ones, so their use for spare parts is only limited. Luckily, many/most parts can still be purchased new as well.

--Tuomas

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 11-12-2008, 10:07 AM:

I'm running a Simplex XL projector on top of a Simplex SH1020 soundhead at my drive-in on Screen 1.

When I got the Simplex pictured above, it was nasty - probably hadn't been cleaned or had the oil changed in years. A couple of months before we opened, I loaded both the projector and the soundhead in the back of my truck and headed to Louisville, Kentucky where Louis and his team went through them with a fine tooth comb. A good cleaning and new bearings throughout. It's been rock steady and reliable since the day we put in in. The soundhead is converted with a Component Engineering Red LED.

Screen 2 I'm running a Brenkert BX-60 on top of an RCA 9030 soundhead.

I have no idea as to the dates on any of these, but I think they all pre-date ME!

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-12-2008, 11:57 AM:

I do service some ISKRA machines from 60's and similar, but oldest i did serviced was ISKRA NP-1 from 1947, it was in fully operative condition until three years when that open air closed.

Also, I do have one Ernemann IVB which is dating from 1947-1950.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 11-12-2008, 01:20 PM:

Barry what model anamorphic attachment is that. Does it focus down for short throw? Thank you!

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 11-12-2008, 02:20 PM:

Not sure of the exact model number, but I do remember it being a REVERSE Anamorphic adapter, meaning instead of it expanding the width of the picture, it squeezes it in to accomodate the screen and throw. My screens are 25x60 with a throw of 350 feet.

Posted by Phil Hill (Member # 371) on 11-12-2008, 03:50 PM:

Barry,
Louis and his team did a fantastic job on your XL.. it's a real beauty!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-12-2008, 04:23 PM:

I ran a Brenkert once. I'm pretty sure they were designed and built in 1849 during Zachary Taylor's administration.

Posted by Joe Tommassello (Member # 4632) on 11-12-2008, 05:16 PM:

I ran (well helped run) a Vitaphone machine once. It was restored by a friend of mine in his basement. He had the Mickey Mouse/Donald Duck cartoon where Mickey was a magician and Donald was heckling him. The print was a sound print but we ran it with the original Vitaphone disc. Next time I saw the projector was years later...displayed at Universal Studios Florida.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-12-2008, 06:10 PM:

What Phil said. Nice X-L and Schneider lens!

Here's a shot of the Avon booth from 2003 or thereabouts:

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-13-2008, 03:17 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
I ran a Brenkert once

Brenkerts were dandy machines - built like tanks. Easy to thread and operate, even though the way to change out an aperture plate is a bit odd and a bit cumbersome, but I wouldn't kick them out of the way for anything. Like this BX-60 here sitting on top of an old 4Star soundhead:

"Mr. Scott" - Those ENARC lamps are the most oddest lamps to operate with the crank wheels at the rear to advance both rods (use to Peerless/Ashcrafts with advance knob at each end of the lamphouse for each rod), yet gave out good light

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-13-2008, 07:26 AM:

4 century C and 2 XL's all were made before 1960 and I think all were made before 1954, meaning they are older than me! All are still working fine in spite of the fact that those that came before me were not the greatest at maintaining the equipment.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-13-2008, 07:31 AM:

Scott,

Is that a Hoover Constellation vacuum cleaner on top of a box behind the film cans? If it is then that's got to be pretty old as well; we had one in about the mid '60s.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 11-13-2008, 08:46 AM:

The Landmark Loews Jersey in Jersey City has a working Simplex Standard, complete with front of lens shutter, mounted on a Western Electric base and equipped with both the Vitaphone disc attachment and the Western Electric optical sound. We don't actually use it for screenings, but it is up there in the booth.

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 11-13-2008, 09:02 AM:

I've got four of the Brenkert BX-60's. One that is in use at the theatre, one in the closet in the office at the theatre to swap out if the other one has a mechanical problem, and two more at home in the garage I use to steal parts from.

I was more than pleased with the work Louis and his team did on my machines. The photos I posted above were actually taken by fellow Film-Tech'er "Evans Chriswell" when he dropped in for a visit back in 2003.

I paid more for that Schneider lens than I did for the entire projector.

Two of my Brenkerts came from the old Woodzo Drive-In up in Newport, TN. They were sitting in the owners garage with Ashcraft Core-Lite lamphouses on the back of the lamp table of the pedestals. I still have the lamphouses, but have no use for them. The rectifiers are long gone.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 11-13-2008, 10:14 AM:

quote: Alan Gouger
Barry what model anamorphic attachment is that. Does it focus down for short throw?

quote: Barry Floyd
Not sure of the exact model number, but I do remember it being a REVERSE Anamorphic adapter, meaning instead of it expanding the width of the picture, it squeezes it in to accomodate the screen and throw

Interesting answer from Barry. I've never I've never heard
of a "reverse anamorphic" projection lens and I'm not
totally convinced there is such a thing, but I could be wrong.
(It wouldn't be the first time! [Big Grin]

)

The lens Barry's picture picture sure looks EXACTLY like a standard
Schneider Kurezweil CineLux "2x-MC" I have a couple of them around here.
The scale on it sez it has an operating range of 17ft-to-infinity. But I
I don't know how accurate the scale is. I'm using one at about 70ft.

Here's One I've Got:

Here's The One Barry's Picture

I know you can't judge a book by its' cover or a lens
by it's sleeve, but they sure look alike to me.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-13-2008, 11:07 AM:

Barry, I was never all that happy with Brenkerts but they were easy to thread and easy to work on but the ones I had, either because of bad projectionist or bad machines, had to be worked on far to often for me!

A "reverse anamorphic" projection lens Say What!!! So it squeezes a flat picture?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-13-2008, 12:04 PM:

Stephen--no idea about that vacuum cleaner; I'll check at some point.

They also have an upright model, which works well, but is a hideous blue color from the 1970s.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-13-2008, 12:16 PM:

What a bunch of newbies...Reverse anamorphics are about as old as CinemaScope [Wink]

As for Schneider's...they are currently calling it a "Tele Anamorphic" Here is the link to their page:

Reverse Anamorphic

Schneider's page for all of their anamorphics currently has both the conventional WA and the Tele on the same picture...look pretty similar, eh? Schneider Anamorphics

But seriously...the Reverse anamorphic goes WAY back. It is the means for doing long focal lengths. If you need a 250mm scope lens...you could either try to find a 250mm prime (none made today by the leading lens companies) and contend with the very low light (once you go above 140mm...forget about f/2 speeds). Or use a 125mm with a reverse anamorphic.

For you ISCO fans, they have the Ultra Reverse anamorphic (754.31).

The old Kollmorgen KA299 (4" diameter thread) was natively reverse but could litterally be screwed on backwards to function as a regular anamorph.

Reverse anamorphics are not great things, as anamorphics go. They serve a purpose (long focal lengths). They are generally of poorer resolution (I don't think anyone has gone beyond 4-elements in them), cost more and they all seem to have a degree of barrel distortion assoicated with them.

Steve

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-13-2008, 01:22 PM:

Steve my comments were a poor attempt at humor. However, you can interpret them any way you want! A Reverse-Anamorphic is still an anamorphic lens it just has a longer throw and yes more light!

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 11-13-2008, 04:27 PM:

I've got to go down to the theatre tonight to turn on the heaters and I'll take a photo of the model number on the side of that lens.

Since both of my screens are the same size, and both are the same distance from each projector - I have the same size lenses on each screen. The scope lens for Screen 2 uses an ISCO Reverse Anamorphic Adapter. The Schneider puts a much better picture on the screen.

Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 11-13-2008, 09:29 PM:

Here's what I found...

Steve was right - it is a Tele-Anamorphic. Where yours says "2X", mine says "0.5X".

Here's the ID plate on the front of my Simplex. S/N 11318

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-14-2008, 03:10 AM:

...prob that XL was made in the early 80's with that SS#

- just a young'un barely broke in.

-Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-14-2008, 08:01 AM:

Nope, that is going to be closer to late '60s. It is a PR-1014 (current PR number) yet black crinkle finish. By the '70s they had gone to hammertone blue-ish.

Steve

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 1430) on 11-15-2008, 03:33 AM:

Just been helping a country community group re-open a closed Drive In and the machines there are Raycophone CP7 which were made in about 1949.
These are Australian made projectors and once thoroughly cleaned and re lubed and a few adjustments made simply purr along.
The screen is 18m wide on just around 100m throw and the light on scope was crap... when I calculated the image size on screen with the backing lens installed it was around 21m wide so was over shooting to hell.
Previously another operator had set up the place with reverse anamorphics with a 114mm lens but the next operator went back to the 200mm lens...that looked more like a coke bottle and normal anamorphic arrangement.
So reversed the Kowa Prominar scope lens in the bracket rotating it 90 deg at same time and slipped the 114mm lens in place and magic... good light and pretty well spot on image width.
A bit of a touch here and there aligning the scope lens onto the screen and the resulting image is quite good for a DI.
Reverse anamorphic use was very common in WA Australia in the drive ins as we had plenty of them in their days and good screen light was always a challenge and a normal anamorphic works quite well used back to front.
114mm lens for backing on scope and 127mm lens for WS and the scope image is noticeably brighter than the WS image now.
Scope before was awful...very very dull.
This set up runs 2 machines on changeover with carbon arcs on the back which are also Aust made lamps by Calder of Sydney which are fitted with 14" mirrors. Run 7 & 8mm carbons right up on Max current for them at 70 amps.. often 75amps if the fish fryer is off and the screen light is quite good.
Converted both sound heads to red LED's by using a Lumiled 3W unit and thru the reverse scan setup (original 1940's Aust design) the fader is the same as when running conventional tracks with white light source.
Purely mono sound going out to the remains of about half the original 150 speakers thru a pair of 50watt amps running 807's in PP. As well the place also feeds the sound out via the AM band on 1350khz with a nice clean AM signal that sounds really great when played thru a car sound system with a bit of class.
If it continues to run future plans are to convert to Xenon lamps but remain as changeover as less work for just a couple of shows each month.
There are a few other places like this in OZ running equally old gear that just keeps on rolling along.