Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CP650 rebooted mid-show for no particular reason, WTF?

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-05-2008, 11:30 AM:

During our last showing of "Bolt," right toward the end of the movie, our CP650 decided to reboot. Nobody was near the machine when it happened -- we didn't have any power fluctuations or anything (and the CP is plugged into a power stabilizer anyway, so that should've stopped any blips) - but it ruined the end of the movie. Anybody had this happen and/or know why it happened?

Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 12-05-2008, 12:04 PM:

Check the cooling fan. We had a CP650 do the same thing when the fan died and the unit started overheating. Dolby apparently figured adding fan speed and/or temperature monitoring wasn't important. [Confused]

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-05-2008, 12:13 PM:

Wow that sucks. I figured the ridiculously long boot time on those things would bite someone in the ass one day.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-05-2008, 02:20 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
-- we didn't have any power fluctuations or anything (and the CP is plugged into a power stabilizer anyway, so that should've stopped any blips)

What do you mean by "power stabilizer" ? If it was anything other than a UPS with battery backup, it will NOT protect against a sag in voltage great enough to prevent a reboot.

What brand/model of UPS or stabilizer do you have?

If it was on a UPS, how old is the UPS? If it is over three years old or has been subjected to several outages the battery is most likely shot.

Otherwise, as Jon said, the next suspect is the cooling fan...or maybe a lot of dust buildup in the processor...both things worth looking into.

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Wow that sucks. I figured the ridiculously long boot time on those things would bite someone in the ass one day.

Me too. That's why ALL of my screening room installs have an APC 500va UPS for the processor and DCM monitors.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-05-2008, 05:38 PM:

So Tony...how often do you verify that the batteries are actually any good?

I've seen many a UPS system fail to work due to battery failure or to not hold more than a minute or two due to battery decay.

Steve

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 12-05-2008, 06:03 PM:

Mike

Does your 650 take a long time to boot up? How long?

Last time we had that issue it was taking ages (+ 3 minutes) to boot and added to that it would re-boot several times during the show. Found out it was a faulty memory card. Replaced it and away it went in around 30 seconds.

[ 12-05-2008, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: John Wilson ]

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-05-2008, 07:03 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
So Tony...how often do you verify that the batteries are actually any good?

I do annual (at the minimum, usually every 6 mos.) service calls to check out video projector lamp times and filters, and check Dolby level and room levels. I will check the battery status lights on the UPS and I also unplug it for a minimum of three minutes to check that it actually works. If the battery is bad it will either fail to keep the equipment alive for that timeframe, or it will activate the replace battery light when reconnected.

I keep a few batteries on hand for that reason.

I have never had any downtime during shows because of it. (So far. [Smile]

)

Speaking of which, I'll bet my battery at my room at UCI is due to be replaced. [Smile]

(It has held for four years so far.)

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-05-2008, 08:07 PM:

I have never been impressed with any of the UPS's I've tried. Belkin, APC, you name it... they all suck ass.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-05-2008, 09:34 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
I have never been impressed with any of the UPS's I've tried. Belkin, APC, you name it... they all suck ass.

Is there anything you've ever used that DOESN'T suck ass? [Big Grin]

Belkin UPS do def suck though, (Know of several that failed rather violently.) I have had good luck with APC, and Tripp-Lite are also very good, but expensive.

I do think that ALL UPS do have one common thing that sucks: the batteries. Most have really cheap batteries, and I replace them with better quality ones from my (semi) local electronics supplier.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-05-2008, 11:22 PM:

Well after reading the replies, I looked at the machine. The cooling fan is working, has a small bit of dust around the grill but air seems to be flowing freely.

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
What do you mean by "power stabilizer" ? If it was anything other than a UPS with battery backup, it will NOT protect against a sag in voltage great enough to prevent a reboot.

It is a UPS, an APC. I think it's about two years old. We got it right after we got the CP650. It's been through maybe two fairly long power outages but still keeps the machine running for at least 20 minutes.

We've had two more shows since the problem one and no more trouble, so maybe it was just some kind of weird fluke? I'm sure it's going to wait until the middle of the last reel on our opening night of "Twilight" to happen again...

quote: John Wilson
Does your 650 take a long time to boot up? How long?

It has always taken exactly one minute to boot - that hasn't changed.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-06-2008, 04:01 AM:

Without actually getting my laptop out to look I believe that you have ver.2.3.4.3 firmware in your 650 which has been pretty stable firmware so you may have something else going on in there. There are newer versions of the firmware that are also very stable but don't offer you any real operational advantages. Be sure the power cord is firmly seated and that the UPS is actually functioning properly. I've learned that with UPS's it is a very good idea to run them once a month... let the batteries run down a ways and then let them re-charge as this helps keep the batteries in top shape. They use sealed lead acid batteries which in themselves can be somewhat finicky and shelf life which is what you might consider them under as used in a UPS is generally about two to three years. If the batteries are bad it's sometimes less expensive to just buy a new UPS as the batteries can sometimes set you back as much as a hundred bucks.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-06-2008, 10:20 AM:

And in some locations used battery dispossal is an issue

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-06-2008, 10:27 AM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
And in some locations used battery dispossal is an issue

Not really in the States where most munincipalities are equipped for recycling used batteries among other things...

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-06-2008, 11:46 AM:

Most UPSs actually switch the power from line to battery in a power failure...this brings about a relay contact that can be either faulty or a contact not properly made.

In fact, I have a facility where the Crestron brain and a Media Matrix plugged into an APC rack mount UPS...after about 3 years of service, when there was a power failure at the facility, those two devices (Media Matrix and Crestron) clearly responded as if they were rebooted though the Media Matrix might not have booted up properly (note, the facility went on line in 2003 so that is the era of the equipment).

The A/V contractor in-charge of this equipment refused to believe it was the APC UPS since the batteries registered as good and they could unplug the APC and it performed properly. I countered with..."you have two otherwise unrelated devices having problems and the only commonality is the UPS that they both plug into." Note too, there are three other Crestron brains and one other Media Matrix on site, also plugged into APCs (different actual units) and they did not suffer the problem. It was way too much of a coincidence that the two devices plugged into this common box would be the subject of bizzar reboot problems.

So, on my insistance, and against the A/V contractor's recommendation, they plugged the Media Matrix and the Crestron into a mere Surge Suppressor/line conditioner (Tripplite LCR-2400)...zero problems with either box. The UPS was thrown in the trash and was replaced with a brand new unit and there have been zero problems since.

The better kind of UPS are the ones that generate their own sine-wave power and ALWAYS have the plugged in devices on UPS power. Think of the batteries as "buffers." They are always being filled while the unit is plugged in...if the power is lost, the batteries will then drain. However, the equipment that is plugged in is unaware of any power change. There is no transition time and the power is always clean.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-06-2008, 12:48 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
this brings about a relay contact that can be either faulty or a contact not properly made.

All the UPS's I know of including APC switch from AC to battery electronically... relays are way too slow for the job as it has to happen instantainously. There are however relays in some UPS's that perform other functions, possibly in the charge circuits, although none of the units I have installed or have worked with have any.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-06-2008, 01:15 PM:

Even if it is an electronic switch...you have the potential for failure...again...this was an APC unit...and one I see in a great many places...a 2U rackmount version (I don't have the VA size committed to memory) but it communicates serially, among other things and has a decent front panel display to show its status.

Relay or no, it didn't do so well on the handoff from line to battery...at least in some conditions. It was not intrinsic to the unit as the replacement had no problems and the several other units, also installed in 2003 have not had problems.

Steve

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-06-2008, 01:26 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The better kind of UPS are the ones that generate their own sine-wave power and ALWAYS have the plugged in devices on UPS power. Think of the batteries as "buffers." They are always being filled while the unit is plugged in...if the power is lost, the batteries will then drain. However, the equipment that is plugged in is unaware of any power change. There is no transition time and the power is always clean.

There's another advantage to the latter, 'on-line' type of UPS, though it applies mainly to the larger sizes. They are available with a three phase rectifier and single phase inverter, so they can produce a single phase output for the equipment while presenting a balanced load to the supply. We installed a 16 kVA one this year with enough battery capacity for a one hour runtime at full load, though we can get longer as we have configured less important devices to shut down sooner. We are likely to install additional battery capacity in the not too distant future. This is the first UPS of this type that we have installed, and we have ben very pleased with it. I'm trying to get funding at the moment for another one, with lower power rating, but increased battery capacity for a much longer run time to support the telephone system

We really need UPSs at the moment; our supply is heavily overloaded, the Voltage is low, builders who are doing a total refurbishment of the building keep cutting the supply to things that they shouldn't, and the other day we were seeing funny Voltages in one part of the building, constantly changing, and anywhere from 160V - 296V, on different phases with about 55V from the blue phase to neutral. I actually had difficulty persuading them that we had a neutral floating and we really needed an electrician to look at it urgently.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-06-2008, 07:42 PM:

What is the point of keeping the CP650 on a UPS if the projector cannot also remain running with full light output in addition to the powerful amplifiers with thousands of watts of sheer power? I have had power fluctuations and my CP650s did not reboot or even kick back into Non-Sync, but all of the xenons did shut off and automatically restrike.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-06-2008, 08:27 PM:

Because we have this crappy electrical system here in town that is prone to 2 or 3 second power outages during lightning storms. We can't afford to have a big enough backup power system to run the whole booth during these but at least we don't have to wait for the 650 to reboot.

I don't think the UPS was the cause of this problem though - we didn't have even a slight blip in the power that I noticed - and our other computers kept running fine.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-06-2008, 11:13 PM:

I could also e-mail you the latest firmware version which is also very stable and you could upgrade it... its very easy... I can walk you through it over the phone... You just need a puter with a serial port, a straight through serial cable... the CP-650 Setup program and the firmware .bin to load in. The new version is also very stable...

Mark

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-11-2008, 05:44 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
..What is the point of keeping the CP650 on a UPS if the projector cannot also remain running with full light output in addition to the powerful amplifiers with thousands of watts of sheer power?...

The point is to avoid the long reboot time, and also help reduce the chance of blowing any of the CP-650's circuits in the event of a spike / surge..

And Steve's experience puzzles me, as I have both CP's and AMX control systems on UPS and have NEVER had either act up on the transtion from utility to UPS and back.

And I'm using the APC's Back-UPS ES line (the cheapest ones they make.)

Only other thing I can think of causing those troubles is if a surge is getting in thru the "back door" by some other connected device. Of if the particular Crestron program requires communication from an outboard device, and when that comm is lost the Crestron reboots.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-12-2008, 09:47 AM:

Update: We got through the whole next week's 12 shows plus a pre-screening of our Polar Express matinee with no problems. We are opening Twilight tonight so if it happens again, it'll be tonight!