Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: ACL laser on to a Vic 4 Crap or what?

This is topic ACL laser on to a Vic 4 Crap or what? in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009662

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-17-2008, 06:20 PM:

I attended a site this week to fit new Dolby cell mount's and cell's to 2 Vic 4's that had recently been (badly) fitted with acl laser's.

The existing cell was a stereo cell fitted into the original mono cell tube. This allowed no lateral adjustment of the cell so it was impossible to get anywhere near an acceptable 'A' chain.

The new laser(s) had been fitted by a relative of the owner and as such could easily have been mounted in another room given the results. I should point out that this was an Indian independent cinema where they want the best but want you to pay them for doing it for them!!!

I fitted the Dolby cell and mount and proceeded to attempt an 'A' chain set-up.....

Some five hours later and less hair than I started with I was starting to lose the plot totally. Time was up and the screen had to open so I reluctantly went to the second screen to do the same. While the first screen was running in SRD.

This took about three hours to do which was what I had expected. Fit new mount and cell, 'A' & 'B' chain. Ignoring the foil wrapped around the fuse holders, cables hanging out of the pedestal in the film path, enough oil all over the place (my test films included) to enable the UK to be self sufficient for the rest of the decade and the sprockets that were so hooked film was wrapped almost all the way around the sprocket.

I returned to the first screen and had another go at alignment.... Got it!! Nope lost it... Got it!!
Lock it all off and run like f**k. There was so much wear that nothing would lock in place.... a nightmare and the acl's do not help at all in such a situation.

Having started the job I was committed to at least get it back to where I started.

Now I HATE with a passion acl lasers kits.... but I hate with more passion cheap skate independents that should not be allowed to operate.

This cinema is a the very worst I have ever seen. NOTHING is anywhere near acceptable. The damage to prints does not bear thinking about. The sad thing is the owner thinks his is a very good cinema and I was expected to match his other screen which was perfect.... his words not mine.

I left with black gunge deep under my finger nails and all over my clothes. I have never been so happy to get out of a cinema in my life. He wants to add another two screens.... not with my help he won't!

Has anyone else experienced anything like this.... or am I unlucky.

What do others think about the acl laser kit for Vic projectors.

Regards Ken.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-17-2008, 06:34 PM:

I have used several ACL lasers on Bauer U2 machines and had no issues with them
dirty projectors I hate

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 12-17-2008, 11:50 PM:

BACP do make a V4 version of the Vic. reader. While it is not my finest work, it does the job and installs pretty quickly.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-18-2008, 04:11 AM:

I've installed a number of these laser units with little trouble. However they will not give even illumination no matter what you do.

Most of the problems with them is that you have two azimuths to align. The laser itself in relation to the lens tube and the lens tube itself.

The problem projector in this case clearly is suffering from wear as the optics would go out of alignment just by laying a finger against the laser. With an exciter lamp this did not pose any real problem as you would still have sound but with the acl line of light it moves out of line with the slit in the lens tube and you have no sound!

Trying to two slits with out a fixed reference point is tricky to say the least. This cinema has only just bought the laser's in the past couple of weeks so they are way behind everyone else.

Acl's are ok as a quick fix but I have never seen one that gives good illumination on any machine.

I did email ACL direct some months ago asking if there was a way to get better even illumination on vic 5's but they never bothered to reply...

Just my thoughts on them was interested if anyone else has had similar problems.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 12-18-2008, 05:14 AM:

I had big issue with ACL laser on MEO5, just can't get illuminated slit as it should, you can see bad illumination with eye, also mounting bracket is very poor so laser can move suddenly.....

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-18-2008, 07:41 AM:

Pretty much the same here. Trying to get a slit of light thru another slit is just plain silly. Any minor shift and the slit on the film will either vanish or reduce in width.

My favoured laser is made by Veronace ?, not sure of the correct spelling, and I get them from Omnex quiet reasonably priced.In fact much cheaper than an other supplier I know of. It does away with the original optics and it gives excellent uniformity and flat response. Like to see anyone get an acl on a vic 4/5/8 to match.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 12-18-2008, 11:55 AM:

A lot of BACP sales into Europe are to replace lasers, not because they don't work so well, but because the lasers tends to fail completely instead of fading away as LEDs tend to do.
BACP makes a reader for Meopta 5XB as well and it is one of our best units as it eliminates the right angle mirror.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 12-18-2008, 03:11 PM:

Original MEO5 sound head is just crap, that can't pass over 6KHz or so, also slit and all alignment knob are bad desinged, you aligning slit focus and in same time slit is jumping up-down....wtf??

Whole MEO is just too bad copy of last BAUER U series, don't make me tell about intermittent! [Big Grin]

At end, BACP reader on MEO is only bright solution on that machine!

I remember friend told me issue about ernemann laser has high level and distortion.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 12-18-2008, 03:49 PM:

Firstly I've fitted countless ACLs on Cinemecannice projectors of various models. They are no easier or harder than fitting them on a Westrex, Century etc. However there are a couple of pitfalls for the unitiated.

Ken, what vintage of optic are these V4s fitted with? It may well be that the individual who installed the ACLs has got the wrong model for the tube in use. There are two types of ACL for Cinemecannica.

You mention that there's oil all over the place. Did you check the optic for oil contamination? It may well be that the fault does not lie with the laser, but with the 60 odd year old, oil filled optic [Wink]

Been there, done that.

There is also an issue with laser to entrance lens distance on some early Vic5, so possibly on Vic4 too. You had to modify the exciter bracket slightly, to move the laser relative to the lens. From here in the Republic of Ireland I'm damned if I can remember if it's closer or further.

The one make I wil never use an ACL on again is anything Phillips/Kinoton. It's just too much heartache to align correctly, as you can't get at the laser hat to adjust it's azimuth with it in place.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-18-2008, 06:43 PM:

Good to hear from you Pete,

YES there is oil all over and in everything!!
I made a point of opening up the optic and showing the guy how bad it was.

However I went prepared with replacement optics and the situation was no better.

As for adjusting the distance of the laser from the optic, it's the first I've heard of it. As I've already said ACL did not bother to reply to my email.....

One projector was fine the other came from hell.

I have to say the acl dose suffer from the right angle mirror which if out of alignment is a real bastard to correct on site. Direct lasers do not suffer from this potential problem.

The three units were purchased from Omnex and I am in NO WAY putting Omnex down. I told the guy he should have paid for an engineer to install them in the first place. But they went ahead and did a diy job and adjusted everything on the laser including the mirror azimuth, which should never normally be touched.

Without at least one constant you are fighting a losing battle trying to get it all aligned on site whilst covered in years of oil and dirt.

I would be interested to see any further info that is available for installing these beasts....

Enjoy your time in Ireleand.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 12-18-2008, 07:10 PM:

OK Your replacement optics. Were they of the later type? With later optics you need the version of the ACL which comes with an L shaped bracket, and a replacement for the slit width adjusting ring. Basically you remove the existing knurled ring, and replace with the supplied one, and remove the exciter bracket altogether.
The L bracket attaches to the now exposed section of tube and fit the laser into the bracket, you align the laser to the optic with it on the bench, then simply fit and align. Basically you are turning it into a combined laser/optic unit. If I remember rightly it moves the laser hat very close to the entrance lens. It's ACL9A, if I remember rightly.

Now the older type Cinemec optics. On some of them one had to elongate the mounting screw holes in the exciter casting to allow adjustment to the distance between the laser and the lens. It's a small amount, maybe 2mm, but it's enough to make the odds. I'm budgerigarred if I can recall in which direction, might be worth giving Alan a call, he is the font of much knowledge.

The design of the ACL9 'L' bracket was done by one of my colleagues, and the points about distance on the earlier optics was discovered by one of our number also.

Your point about one constant is a good one, so here's something I learned years ago. A small LED torch is a very handy ally when aligning and fitting ACLs. If I have a difficult one, for example I've removed the optic tube and have no reference, I use the torch to illuminate the slit enough that I can get a decent focus and accurate azimuth. I then adjust the laser to match the optic slit, as I'm sure you know you can alter the lasers azimuth by way of the mirror hat. Yes it's fiddly, yes it can give you a headache but it does work if you persevere.

The installation of ACLs can be fiddly and time consuming but despite the comments made above, you can get excellent slit illumination. I've often seen a Cat566 trace flat to 1dB.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-19-2008, 04:25 AM:

Lot of interesting info to look into Pete, thanks.

I had already tried to go back to exciter lamp to get an alignment to work from but could not get the psu working? God knows what they had been doing but if you were to see the mess you'd not be surprised.

The spare optic's I had were the original type and there was no difference, considering your comments that is again no surprise.

'IF' I ever go back there I will take a psu with me so I can get an alignment to work from and then adjust the azimuth of the laser to match. But to be honest it's such a filthy hole I'd rather not get involved any further.
Given time and a half decent, clean, setup I'll have a play and using your suggestions see what results I get. I'll be very happy to revise my opinion then.

Regards Ken.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-19-2008, 02:49 PM:

Ken; you have got to help those who look like they can make it. The rest you cut loose or, at least, use 'em "for the money." Louis

Posted by Benjamin John Doman (Member # 4365) on 12-20-2008, 07:28 AM:

Hi Ken,
Glade to hear you are settling into you’re new job.

“My favoured laser is made by Veronace ?, not sure of the correct spelling, and I get them from Omnex quiet reasonably priced.In fact much cheaper than an other supplier I know of. It does away with the original optics and it gives excellent uniformity and flat response. Like to see anyone get an acl on a vic 4/5/8 to match.”

We are the ONLY UK dealers of these Veronese lasers and therefore Jed buys them from us! Give Karen a ring in the office for the latest pricing.

Another hated laser to add to the list – Fitted to a Vic 4 (coincidence?), no markings. The LED was mounted on three screws inside the sound drum, in the place where the cell bracket was fitted. You adjusted the LED position by the three screws. Spent two hours lining it up. Anyone seen anything like this?
Regards,
Ben (Future Projections Ltd)

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-20-2008, 10:16 AM:

Ben I'm not too sure if you are in fact correct about the supply of the laser I mentioned.

I've bought 3 from Omnex so far and I'm informed they come direct from the manufacturer in Italy. I would in NO way buy anything that came via your employer... Nothing against you personally.

Louis,

you are so right. The Indian cinema I mentioned is without doubt the worst I have ever seen and I will not be going back there again. They can find another mug to do their very dirty work for them.

Regards.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 12-20-2008, 11:23 AM:

This situations can be dealt very easily. Just tell the client that you are not willing to put hours of work which will not be paid in order to fix something that cannot be fixed! Simple as that. Instead urge the client to buy a decent reverse scan reader (BACP of course) which are foolproof, a swift to install and maintenance free and have both yourself and the client happy for the result. If they can't understand that, don't bother its not worth it.
Demetris

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-20-2008, 11:38 AM:

Right again.... but you try and tell someone that they are damaging film, their sound is crap and could so easily be improved. Try telling them that foil in fuse holders is a very real fire and safety risk.
They nod their head in agreement until you tell them the cost. Mostly just labour with few parts and they go thru the roof.

My health does not allow me the luxury of dealing with the stress involved. Also having to haggle to get the agreed payment is just shit.

I know of one cinema sending out rubber cheques to people I know. In one case I made it a condition they pay up or I would not attend. They supplied two cheques which both bounced.

I hate being conned and I hate lier's and conmen, and this industry is well represented by both.

Something for nothing....

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-21-2008, 01:25 PM:

Ben....

"We are the ONLY UK dealers of these Veronese lasers and therefore Jed buys them from us!"

Sooooo not true!

I am pleased to be able to confirm that the veronese laser's I've purchased from Omnex were indeed sourced direct from Paulo Veronese in Italy and not via your employer. Also that Omnex will supply any of his products as required.

Omnex has had a very long standing relationship with Paulo Veronese and I am happy to continue, and will always recommend that others, purchase his products thru Omnex.

Regards

Posted by Benjamin John Doman (Member # 4365) on 12-21-2008, 04:15 PM:

Ken,
I stand corrected then! Whoever you buy them from, it’s still a good product.
With regards to the type of cinema mentioned, some people will not thank you for anything you do to improve there show so it’s pointless doing anything other than what they pay for. At the other end of the scale, there are the ones who have little money but loads of interest in the business. They will keep you supplied with endless cups of tea and bacon rolls whilst you work on there projector that last had a service by the Westrex service Co. They I have the time for.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 12-21-2008, 05:16 PM:

Ben you are so right.

There are some places that go the extra mile and, in my case, keep me well supplied with cola. These places get the best I can give and do make it all worth while. But for every 'good' site there are those that make you wonder why you bother.

I have a couple of sites that are a pleasure to work at. Most of the rest are 'do it cheap do it quick' sites. Then there are the real shit holes that I visit once and don't go back to.

It's not a case of earning money because inevitably these site's end up costing you more than you got in the first place. They forever call saying that so and so is broken and it was OK before you called. The fact that it had nothing to do with what you were working on seems to slip their notice.

I've ended my association with one site who is issuing rubber cheques. Not to me I should add but to someone I have a lot of time and respect for who is VERY well known in the industry.

I tried to help him get his cash by making it a condition that they paid him when I attended. They were off screen so it was urgent. I was conned. They gave me two cheques for him as agreed, which both bounced. As of hearing that I have cut all ties with them. The next time they are off screen, and it won't be too long, they are f##ked as no one else will attend them if they have any sense.

Regards