Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Best short throw anamophic and flat lens for sSuperSimplex?

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Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 12-19-2008, 12:59 AM:

What would be the best short throw lens for a SuperSimplex in both anamorphic and flat? What I need it for would be my Acme dallies projector. I'm looking and a screen about 20 to 25 (at the ABSOLUTE most) wide by say 15 to 18 ft. at under 50 ft throw. I'm also looking at used if possible 'cause as always, money is tight especially mow. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks-Steve [Cool]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-19-2008, 08:59 AM:

Isco Blue Star for the anamorphic... You can set it really well down to about 15 feet For the other lenses either the red or blue series is excellent. Rare to find rm used though.

Also be sure to install Positrol sprockets in the Super to keep any side weave under check. Also, Hopefully you don't literally mean you're using a Simplex Acme that it's at least a Super Simplex....

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 12-19-2008, 11:50 AM:

Dumb question, Mark: what's a Positrol sprocket?

Would this be used as an intermittent sprocket? Speaking of that, off the topic, can you still get pinned intermittent sprockets. I've been having a hard time finding an intermittent with a decent sprocket (most are pinned on). The only intermittent that I have with a screwed on sprocket, the damn flywheel is seized on the shaft.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-19-2008, 02:01 PM:

True, pulling flywheels off on a Super intermittent ass'y can be horrible at times. Had to soak one down with Liquid Wrench one time to finally get the thing to break free when you get the lock screw loosened, shove the screwdriver in the center while trying to hand turn the flywheel.

Can your INT sprocket be turned around to wear on the other side of the teeth being the taper pin variety? For I heard that Super parts are getting hard to find anywhere.

On your question on "Positrol Sprocket" - check this page from Lavezzi

-Monte

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-19-2008, 02:40 PM:

quote: Bernie Anderson Jr
the damn flywheel is seized on the shaft

Use a gear puller.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-19-2008, 02:47 PM:

Tim; you can't...it's threaded on and you must turn the screw with a screwdriver. Louis

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-19-2008, 06:30 PM:

Don't think the positrol is available for the Super intermittant.

IIRC that flywheel pulley is a left-hand thread too..so be careful. [Smile]

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 12-19-2008, 07:36 PM:

I've tried pretty much what was suggested. I should try soaking the end in liquid wrench. I have about 6 intermittents, all good, but the sprockets are pinned and I've tried flipping them in the past. Never really works well.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-19-2008, 09:21 PM:

Heat gun?

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 12-19-2008, 09:49 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

"Isco Blue Star for the anamorphic... You can set it really well down to about 15 feet For the other lenses either the red or blue series is excellent. Rare to find rm used though.

Also be sure to install Positrol sprockets in the Super to keep any side weave under check. Also, Hopefully you don't literally mean you're using a Simplex Acme that it's at least a Super Simplex...."

No Mark, I just spaced out, It is a Super, I MEANT to say Atlas not Acme dallies projector. Yes, you had mentioned installing Positrol sprockets in my Super once or twice before and the recommendation has NOT fallen on deaf ears, I, of course, will heed your mentoring and do that as cash becomes available. The Isco Blue sounds EXACTLY like what I'm looking for, and will do what I want it to even in confined spaces but I'm a bit concerned it may be out of my price range or at least take a while for me to gather up the cash to afford it ESPECIALLY if it's not likely to be found used. Do you have any other recommendations that would work maybe as a stop gap measure until I could gather the cash up for the Blue?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-19-2008, 09:57 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
IIRC that flywheel pulley is a left-hand thread too..

Nope, they're right handed threads - left to remove the flywheel off the shaft.

It's the slotted shaft where you turn left if you hold the flywheel to tighten. But, I go easier with holding the screwdriver and turning the flywheel right to adjust.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-19-2008, 10:44 PM:

Positrols are available for feed/holdback and intermittett. However your intermittent must have a 5/16" diameter star shaft. These sprockets have a vkf tooth on one side and a wider special tooth on the other side that fits the full width of the peed. Hence there is no measurable sideweave that can be measured visibly. I used positrols on all my dailies units for many years with spectacular results.... There was zero problems with millions of tape splices either single or double sided. There also used to be positrols for the X-L but I don' know if they are still available or not...

Mark

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-20-2008, 02:29 PM:

Mark, look at the Lavezzi catalog again. They DO NOT have the positrols for the pinned style intermittant sprocket..looks like they do not have the pinned style available anymore either..better try Wolk.

The positrol IS available for the XL still...Part # L2SP31

A properly aligned Super will have NO issues of side weave so a positrol is a waste of money, even if it could be had. I do wish they made the VKF profile for a pinned sprocket though, now that would be worth the extra money.

Steve, replace the sprocket, make sure the lateral guide rollers in the trap are aligned perfectly with the sprocket (get the alignment guage from Lavezzi, part # AG-1)and make sure that the lateral guide rollers both turn freely with no side slop and that the spring-loaded roller can move freely. A TINY drop of Simplex oil on each end bearing and the center of the shaft where the two rollers spread apart will keep 'em happy.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Nope, they're right handed threads - left to remove the flywheel off the shaft.

It's the slotted shaft where you turn left if you hold the flywheel to tighten. But, I go easier with holding the screwdriver and turning the flywheel right to adjust.

Thanks Monte, I stand corrected. It has been years since I had my Super..and I wish I'd never gotten rid of it.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 12-20-2008, 06:36 PM:

I always felt the super was not the best for registration if the gate tension was reduced to a sensible level now the E7 had a rock stable image with almost no tension
Some of the BL anamorphs can be disasembled and the slots lengthened to reduce their focal range

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-20-2008, 07:48 PM:

When I think of all the Simplexes and Powers I walked away from over the years and let get tossed in the trash, it pains me. I'd love to have an old Standard and a 6B for posterity.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-20-2008, 09:42 PM:

Depending on the focal length, one won't be able to use a Blue-Star as the barrel is too wide given how the Super is constructed. You might find yourself needing to use a compact anamorphic, like the Schneider ES anamorphic...again, it is all up to the focal length of the lens.

Steve

Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 12-21-2008, 12:35 AM:

Well according to my International Cinema Equipment Lens Selector & Picture Size Computer, with a 25 ft wide screen at 20 ft I'd need a 16mm anamorphic to project a 2:35 image, up to a 40mm for projection at a 50 ft throw. 35 ft would be a 25mm. I believe that a 25 ft screen would probably be the best size, given my limited space, to use for focus and grading checks. [Cool]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-21-2008, 01:14 AM:

You can stop right now...you'll never get the image out of the lens and if you could, you'll never get it out of the projector.

Most anamorphics can't handle less than 50mm...though, depending on throw, one might be able to get a 47.5 or even a 45mm to work...normally not though. ISCO did make three very special versions of the Blue-Star integrated anamorphic....the shortest being 42mm. You won't find it very easily and would pay top dollar to have it made new (it has always been special order)...it also will likely vignette in a Super Simplex.

Steve

[ 12-21-2008, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-21-2008, 07:25 AM:

You couldn't open the gate with the lens in, either. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-21-2008, 05:35 PM:

Tony, Go back and re-read my post again... I stated that you MUST have a 5/16" diameter star shaft to use positrols... The "pinned" sprocket only fits on the old type1/4" star shafts.

Gord,
A Super is every bit as good as an E-7 in the verticle realm unless there is something wrong with the Super....

Mark

[ 12-22-2008, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gulbrandsen ]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 12-21-2008, 08:51 PM:

Mark: using the Super as a reference, most projectors today are not as good. Kinoton, Simplex XL, and Century can be made to be better especially if gate is curved. The rest? Louis

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-21-2008, 10:10 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
...most projectors today are not as good...

So, what happened? Who got lazy in their designs to make things sub-par?

I was impressed this summer on a service all with a theatre that had a pair of Supers sitting on RCA-9300's .. the picture - steady as a rock with no jumping and weaving.....Then, I come home to 1050's, run a RP-40 loop, go down to the screen and there is noticable weave and jump in the checkerboard test on the film.....so discouraging..

Posted by Austin Pelnar (Member # 5043) on 12-21-2008, 10:43 PM:

I was just having this very discussion the other day. For a time I hated to mention I was working with anold super but after following up on a lead on a soundhead I ended up in a lengthy conversation about how stable the supers were but unfortunatly they cut off the parts supply. Fortunatly when I bought my super it included a nice stock of parts including a handful of the elusive pinned sprockets. Mine did have some modifications maybe someone can shed some light on. The starwheel shaft has been modified to accept a BB47/416TL31B and the trap door looks to be from an E-7.
I did test a 22mm ultra MC in mine it wont vigenette if you remove the focus knob, the exra support ring and push the guide rods as far back as you can, it is still possible to open the trap.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-22-2008, 01:05 AM:

w/r/t Steve B.'s problem, is the solution not to use a transposing extender or a wide-angle converter (aka "zoom converter"; e.g 0.7x magnacom)? Or do those lose you more than you would gain?

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-22-2008, 02:03 AM:

The question was with respect to an anamorphic...you aren't going to get the image out of it without vignetting at that EF. The special Blue stars, also not quite short enough will need to be sunk into the the projector (forget about the front lens mount or stop ring) to get the image in focus...and then you will likely vignette coming out of the projector.

For 1.85, one has more options.

Steve

Steve

Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 12-22-2008, 02:19 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
You can stop right now...you'll never get the image out of the lens and if you could, you'll never get it out of the projector.

Most anamorphics can't handle less than 50mm...though, depending on throw, one might be able to get a 47.5 or even a 45mm to work...normally not though. ISCO did make three very special versions of the Blue-Star integrated anamorphic....the shortest being 42mm. You won't find it very easily and would pay top dollar to have it made new (it has always been special order)...it also will likely vignette in a Super Simplex.

Steve

Well, in that case, I may end up having to use a smaller screen. The computer says at a 50 ft throw, using a 50mm 'scope lens, the image size would be just under 18 ft. If I could pull back to 56 ft. I could get a 20 ft. wide image and in order to get my magic 25 ft wide image, I'd need to set the projector back at 70 ft. One Hell of a throw for a portable dallies projector. I'm currently looking for a warehouse to buy to put my studio in along with my processing lab and editing suites. It mat be possible to get close to that kind of throw in a 40 x 60 building which is about what I'm looking at. Maybe I could put a booth up on the roof of the editing suites with a screen at the other end and the sound system fixed on the walls which I figure should be fine if I build them at normal room height say 8 to 10 feet on a 20 ft to 25 ft tall building. I'm also like to put theater seating and casters on a pair of risers I have so we could do possibly do some test screenings. My current building, which I rent, is 100 x 50 but is only 10 ft tall so it doesn't work all that well as a studio, though we have shot some stuff there. It also has a VERY bad roof and leaks like a sieve. I plan on making getting into a new building a priority this coming year. [Cool]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-22-2008, 07:50 AM:

Tony, Go back and re-read my post again... I stated that you MUST have a 5/16" diameter star shaft to use positrols... The "pinned" sprocket only fits on the old type1/4" star shafts.

Ford, A Super is every bit as good as an E-7 unless there is something wrong with the Super....

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-22-2008, 08:46 AM:

Steve go to Schneider's web site and download their Theatre Design Pro (there may be a version here too).

That will help you see just what point of acceptable throw vs. screen size occurs.

I think you are mis-reading your lens selector...a 25' wide picture at 20-feet needs about a 33mm prime lens. Doing the math:

((2x.825)/25) x 20 x 25.4 = 33.5mm. You didn't multiply the width of the aperture by 2 in order to allow for the 2x anamorphic. So, using 50mm as the bare minimum of a known workable, non-special order lens with a 25' wide screen.

Rework the equation so that it looks like (50x25)/(25.4x2x.825) you get you required throw to be 29.83' or about 29'-10"...probably something you can do. It will still suck putting a 50mm integrated anamorphic in the Super (it will be way back in the machine and you won't be able to use a stop ring) but it will likely work.

Steve

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 12-22-2008, 12:54 PM:

I guess I'm getting kind of off-topic, but I was curious about these transposing extenders.

quote: schneideroptik.de

This lens attachment transposes the exit pupil of the lens toward the front thanks to its additional glass distance without having even the slightest negative effect on the imaging. It is used with lenses which have a short focal length and which are needed with a very large screen with only a short projection dis-tance. The Extension avoids partial vignetting of the wide image which can e.g. be caused by parts of the projector which extend into the beam path, parts of other lenses in the same lens revolver or by too nar-row a window.

?

--jhawk

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 12-23-2008, 11:46 AM:

I got this scope lens from a cinema equipment dealer here in San Francisco
that I use on my Simplex XL at a short throw of abt 25-30ft & it works great.

Last year I loaned it to a well known San Francisco theater that used it for several months after their scope lens was damaged.

The throw there was just over 100ft, and they claimed the picture looked better than their regular scope lens.
The theater even offered to buy it from me. I refused to sell.

I don't have an optical bench or a lens resolution test film (Do they they still make those things? - haven't seen one in years!)so I don't have a quantative way of measuring or comparing it to other lenses.

The lens is marked: H. Chretien Hypergonar, HI-FI-2, Societe Technique Optique De Precision

Distances from "7 - 50" are scribed on the adjustment collar. I'm going to assume these distances are in meters since the lens was made in france. There is also an "infinity' setting.

Labels on the box it came in when I bought it indicate it was originally sold to the "UA Arden-Fair" in Sacramento, CA.

This lens works so well for me, that I recently found and bought a 2nd one.

Posted by Steve Beverly (Member # 4540) on 12-24-2008, 04:27 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Steve go to Schneider's web site and download their Theatre Design Pro (there may be a version here too).

That will help you see just what point of acceptable throw vs. screen size occurs.

I think you are mis-reading your lens selector...a 25' wide picture at 20-feet needs about a 33mm prime lens. Doing the math:

((2x.825)/25) x 20 x 25.4 = 33.5mm. You didn't multiply the width of the aperture by 2 in order to allow for the 2x anamorphic. So, using 50mm as the bare minimum of a known workable, non-special order lens with a 25' wide screen.

Rework the equation so that it looks like (50x25)/(25.4x2x.825) you get you required throw to be 29.83' or about 29'-10"...probably something you can do. It will still suck putting a 50mm integrated anamorphic in the Super (it will be way back in the machine and you won't be able to use a stop ring) but it will likely work.

Steve

Thanks for the link there Steve-o, This thing's kind like a projection slide rule so no doubt I was reading it incorrectly. I appreciate the cinema math lesson and will attempt to use it, though with the link, it may not be neceassary but it's still nice to know how to figure it out in case I'm ever asked. [Big Grin]

quote:

I got this scope lens from a cinema equipment dealer here in San Francisco
that I use on my Simplex XL at a short throw of abt 25-30ft & it works great.
-

Last year I loaned it to a well known San Francisco theater that used it for several months after their scope lens was damaged.

The throw there was just over 100ft, and they claimed the picture looked better than their regular scope lens.
The theater even offered to buy it from me. I refused to sell.

I don't have an optical bench or a lens resolution test film (Do they they still make those things? - haven't seen one in years!)so I don't have a quantative way of measuring or comparing it to other lenses.

The lens is marked: H. Chretien Hypergonar, HI-FI-2, Societe Technique Optique De Precision

Distances from "7 - 50" are scribed on the adjustment collar. I'm going to assume these distances are in meters since the lens was made in france. There is also an "infinity' setting.

Labels on the box it came in when I bought it indicate it was originally sold to the "UA Arden-Fair" in Sacramento, CA.

This lens works so well for me, that I recently found and bought a 2nd one.

Jim, I'll definately keep an eye out for this lens. It looks to be French (I did a Google so I THINK that's were it was made). It may be just what I need. Are you sure it will work with the Sper though? I THOUGHT the XL was a little different but maybe I'm wrong. [uhoh]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-27-2008, 01:40 PM:

quote: Jim Cassedy
they claimed the picture looked better than their regular scope lens.
The theater even offered to buy it from me. I refused to sell.

Jim,

Occasionally you do find an old "coke bottle" scope lens that looks better then modern ones do. I once had a B&L that the Prez of Schneider thought was his anamorphic lens when I put the thing up on screen! Definately hold onto yours!

Mark

Posted by Richard B. Perrine (Member # 409) on 12-27-2008, 09:28 PM:

I didn't want to do this....since it's off topic, but I sent a PM to Bernie Anderson...since I have some pinned sprockets that I don't need.
He probably didn't see it...so I e-mailed him from the forum and it bounced back as undeliverable.

on the other subject....I think had a friend that used a 2" on a Super for a Flat, but not scope.
I've got his scope lens....a variable box prism lens (not a Panatar).

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 12-27-2008, 09:53 PM:

One of our local family owned theaters had a set of "Taschinski" (sp) lens adapters for early scope projection. They were very novel compared to the B&Ls that were used in our Butterfield chain theaters. Most of the Marr Theaters had RCA sound equipment and Brenkert projection heads.

KEN

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 12-31-2008, 12:10 PM:

Hey Richard,

I emailed you directly.

Thanks

Bernie