quote: Alaina Shaffer

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after cleaning every roller and realigning everything the scratches still showed up and then they started to occur on other projectors so now I am leaning towards user error

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Yep, I'd tend to agree with that assumption. It only takes one mis-thread to ruin a whole print.
 

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Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 12-29-2008, 12:14 PM:
 
Sounds like they're not square on a roller somewhere and are either riding the flange or getting torn up by a keeper roller.

Although that is just a guess...I'd advise spot checking them. Stop by randomly and see what their threading looks like.

See how they thread -- carelessly? Do they check their work?
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 12-29-2008, 02:26 PM:
 
Hi Alaina, welcome to Film-Tech, you'll find tons of helpful advice and people here.

As I had advised another person in another thread, the best way to get to the bottom of this issue is for you to drop in UNANNOUNCED and tour the booth as each of your operators is on shift. That way you'll see their true habits and find out how your film's getting scratched.
 

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Posted by Lauren Wilson (Member # 5002) on 01-04-2009, 05:46 PM:
 
Hi Alaina,

I'm at a new theatre and you're scratches sound exactly the same as the ones we have on all our 18 prints but two. Yet I don't think its operator error, we have christie platter systems and I think the cluster is the route of the problem, numerous cleaning and careful threading has yet to resolve the issue and I'm curious if any one out there has any suggestions.
 

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Posted by Jeremiah Teague (Member # 5052) on 01-06-2009, 03:29 AM:
 
I have a similar problem. They are always light black on the right side. affects about half of the prints (8). I think it might have something to do with our tension bands or film gate (christi p35gps heads) but I'm not sure. It could be human error as well. Does anyone have ideas on what causes these or scratches in general?
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-06-2009, 04:08 AM:
 
How close are they to the right edge of the screen? For example, if your screen is 20 feet wide, are they 2-3 feet in from the right edge?

Can you take a picture of the scratches and post it here? If people can see them, we can narrow it down much faster and more accurately.
 

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Posted by Jeremiah Teague (Member # 5052) on 01-06-2009, 04:18 PM:
 
I'll try and get a picture on my next shift. The screens are about 50 feet wide and the scratches are like vertical cat-scatches on the right between 1 foot and 4 feet. Our prints are usually fine for the first 2-3 weeks of play and then they will sometimes start to scratch. Usually the longer we have a print, the worse off it'll be. I can't pin it down to a particular projector. It would be multiples anyway.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-07-2009, 04:03 AM:
 
Jeremiah, what kind of failsafes do you have? Also look closely at your pad rollers and tell me if they have the "inner" guide on them that would be resting up against the very inside edge of the sprocket holes. There is also the chance that it is the intermittent shoe, but regardless it will be one of those three things on a P35GPS.
 

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Posted by Jeremiah Teague (Member # 5052) on 01-10-2009, 04:39 AM:
 
Fail-safes are Component Engineering FM-35. The pad rollers we have do have the guides that rest up against the film. They only touch the sproket-hole area.

The pictures I took didn't capture the scratches so I simulated them on this picture:

(it wouldn't accept my picture, so see below)

The black scratches aren't straight. They usually wave left and right a bit. There are also multiple "lines". A few prints every now and then get green dots.

I also took pictures of my threading and posted them on my picassa site. Let me know if this seems off to anyone.
scratches at picassa

Like I said earlier, it may be human error. What kind of threading mishap could lead to something like this? I've tried purposefully mis-threading trailers to find out, but I can't reproduce this.
 

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 01-10-2009, 12:46 PM:
 
It looks like the problem is created during makeup of the film. Do you makeup on spools and then load on the platter or do you load the platter directly? The scratches do not seem to be symetrical so it proposes that the film rubs/drags along the non operator side somewhere. The most usymetrical thing is the spools of makeup (which could be bend) or the platter during makeup which could bump up and down causing film to rub/drag if the roller is not allinged properly. When you have a brand new print, do you have these scratches or are they not apparent until a play or two? Christies although having their flaws treat film quite nicely.
Demetris
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-10-2009, 02:26 PM:
 
His simulation isn't buildup scratches. Unfortunately the pictures of the threading are angled straight-on so I can't see what kind of pad rollers are on there.

Regardless, the lower loop is too big. With the lower pad roller open and you turning the projector over slowly by hand, the smallest part of the loop should pull snugly against the open pad roller. Too big of a lower loop can put standing emulsion scratches and/or destroy the SRD track (depending on if you have slap guards installed under the ultramittent or not).

Go into the tips section and look at "threading 101".
 

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Posted by Jeremiah Teague (Member # 5052) on 01-10-2009, 04:46 PM:
 
Yeah, the scrathces we get aren't from build-up. Every print will look pristine for the first week or 2, but then the scratches appear. We build-up both ways, though. Some from reels to platter and some we build onto big reels and then transfer to the platter.

That's funny that you say my lower loop is too big. I used to thread exactly how you describe and the regional booth tech told me that it was "way too small" and that I was probably "scratching the sh#t out of prints" so I changed the way I did things. Considering you and the head's manual say otherwise, I'll change back.

Thanks, all.
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-10-2009, 05:18 PM:
 
Based on the pics and simulated scratches you showed, my money's on the inner flange of the pad rollers causing it, looks like the type and area for it.

Contact your dealer and get the pad roller without the inner flanges from Lavezzi (I think they're still only about $8-10 each) and replace them. Or, if you know a machinist, have him chuck the rollers into a lathe and turn (cut) that inner flange out.

Another thing to look very closely at is the film gate runners and trap bands. The tiniest nick in those will cause the scratches too. (Usually with a LOT of film dust buildup too.)
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-10-2009, 07:17 PM:
 
Your tech is absolutely 100% dead wrong. Feel free to point whoever that is to this thread if you really want to make him/her happy. I have no sympathy for people who cause film damage by spreading their own ignorance to others. And even light dirt buildup is damage because that quickly becomes embedded into the emulsion and a permanent part of the film.

BTW the pad rollers Tony spoke of above are what I am currently pointing my finger at with the existing info that has been provided so far.
 

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Posted by Jeremiah Teague (Member # 5052) on 01-11-2009, 04:32 AM:
 
I took some more pictures. Primarily the pad rollers to show you guys and also how I threaded tonight (and from now on).

scrathces at picassa

Let me know if you think it's the pad rollers.

I'm going to check all the gates and bands on tuesday, most likely.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-11-2009, 04:59 AM:
 
Nope, you have the good pad rollers. Its something else.

You also have the slap guards under the ultramittent, so making your lower loop too large will destroy the SRD soundtrack. Since the cleanliness of your projectors shows that you do not run FilmGuard on your prints, you have probably noticed that the Dolby digital error rate keeps climbing higher and higher every week. That's why! (The slapguards sacrifice the SRD soundtrack to protect the image from being scratched from people who make that loop too big.)

I would look to the intermittent shoe at this point. (Its not happening in the gate/trap.) Do a test by reversing the intermittent shoe (rotate it 180 degrees) and then run a trailer loop of something bright and animated for 50 passes to see if it re-appears.

Please note that you really MUST use the "upload" feature here on this website. By linking to your picasa site, those pictures will not be archived for the future. The upload page (look to the left side of your screen) is very self-explanatory.
 

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Posted by Jeremiah Teague (Member # 5052) on 01-11-2009, 03:55 PM:
 
The soundtracks do get bad week after week. I haven't had any prints loose the digital track completely, though. I'd like to use FilmGuard, but I work for that company that won't let me buy it.

I'll try reversing the shoe. What exactly will that show, though?
If it scratches the other side of the film, then it's the shoe sort of thing?

Sorry about not uploading the pics. I'll do this next time.
 

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