Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton ghosting

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Posted by Sally Ann Burgess (Member # 4746) on 01-01-2009, 11:42 PM:

We have some ghosting on one of our FP30Ds. I was taught "Bottom Early Late Top" or BELT and the trails are on the top of the subtitles which means the shutter is coming down too late?
I have adjusted shutter timings on Vic 5's before but not Kinotons. What's the trick to getting this right?

[ 01-03-2009, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Sally Ann Burgess ]

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-02-2009, 03:19 PM:

Hi Sally:

The trick is lots of patience. [Smile]

You need to carefully set the inermittant sprocket to the mid-point of pulldown, after loosening the hub screws on the shutter just enough for the blade to slip in the hub. Line up one of the blades centered in the aperture area, then carefully snug up the hub screws.

A very poor aspect of an otherwise excellent machine, no shutter adjust knob and poor access to time the shutter. The upside is the direct drive means that it rarely goes out of adjustment.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 01-02-2009, 05:10 PM:

Hi Sally,

I was always taught BRAT, Bottom Retard Advance Top.

As Tony has already said lot's of patience and some footage with white text on black. Adjust the shutter while using a scope aperture. Depending on the cinema it's best to get down to the screen at check up close or get someone to work with you.

Another thing to bear in mind is that there is always some play in the gearing of the shutter which makes it harder to adjust in small increments. I tend to put a clear scratch on the blade and the clamp so I have a reference point to work to without having to worry about gear backlash. If I recall correctly there are three bolts that clamp the shutter blade. Slacken them all off, of course, and when testing your adjustments only clamp the blade with one bolt near the reference mark you made.

Hope this helps.

Regards.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 01-03-2009, 08:27 AM:

Also when you readjust it go near screen to inspect is it okay, also check all are of screen, up and down to see if everything is okay....kinoton is a bit tricky because shutter is made with big as possible opening to have more efficient.

Posted by Sally Ann Burgess (Member # 4746) on 01-04-2009, 03:02 AM:

Thanks for your responses, you are all most helpful.
Now, just to be clear, the shutter goes counter clockwise so if the shutter is coming up too late, then I have to move it up a bit more? And yes it looks like a bit of a bugger to get to those three bolts!!

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 01-04-2009, 10:02 AM:

This is the way:

In case picture is stretched down you move shutter in opposite direction of it's rotation, and in case picture is stretched up you move shutter in direction of it's rotation.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-04-2009, 11:15 AM:

From the lamphouses perspective...

If the trails are licking up...turn the blade up (these will be heaviest at the bottom of the screen). If the trails are licking down (these will be heaviest towards the top of the screen) turn the blade down.

As to getting to Kinoton shutters...it is easiest THROUGH the lamphouse.

As for seeing the shutter ghosting from the booth...forget the 2nd person or going up/down stairs. You can use binoculars/spotting scopes but my preferred method...loosen the flat lens and pull it forward to focus us on or about the port. Place some dark material (paper/book/binder...etc...but make sure it is black or dark blue)...focus the image on the book and then you will have this super-bright image right near you to see. Being so bright, you'll really be able to determine how close you are to ghosting. Use the Scope plate with the flat lens to ensure you have eliminated the ghost in all parts of the aperture.

You can turn the shutter to just eliminate the ghost or get the shutter in the middle of its range...use a pencil to mark the shutter hub and blade when you just start to see the trails in each direction, then move the blade so it is between your two marks.

When evaluating the shutter, you don't want to leave the lamp on very long...you will be reaching through the lamphouse and also physically touching the blade, you don't want things to get too hot.

Also remember, a little movement in the shutter blade goes a long way.

Steve

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-04-2009, 06:01 PM:

Is there a cross on these blades to center in the aperture opening like the Christies, or just a blank blade is used? For, it sounds like these Kinotons time exactly like the Christies - centering the blade in the middle of the travel.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-04-2009, 07:06 PM:

Or just lke the DP-70 for that matter but Kinoton and Phillips both left the mark off the shutter. In fact I have to wonder why this Kinoton even needs timming... First the relay and now the shutter... I was under the impression they were reliable... like the good ole DP-70.

Mark

Posted by Sally Ann Burgess (Member # 4746) on 01-04-2009, 07:18 PM:

Well Mark, this is the most trouble I have had since I started working here! I still think Kinotons are rock steady machines despite my latest woes upstairs. And no, Monte, there is no mark on the blade. I'm a bit apprehensive about doing this on my own actually!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-04-2009, 07:58 PM:

Maybe a help here to reduce the apprehension then: On the intermittent sprocket, make one tooth, let's say a tooth that is at the 12:00 position (or any position that is comfortable to reference to) and make that the No.1 tooth.

Roll the motor over by hand until the sprocket rotates where the third tooth is at the 12:00 position. The halfway measurement between the tips of the shutter blade should be dead center in the aperture opening.

Take a small ruler and measure the width of the blade and divide this width in half, and this will give you dead center distance between the tips of the blade and put a mark on the edge of the blade...and this is where the blade center needs to be with sprocket tooth No.3 at the 12:00 position.

-Monte