Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Bad Rectifryer???

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Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 01-14-2009, 06:26 PM:

Ok so the fun never ends. Tonight in the last 20min of 7 pounds the rectifier decides to pop off and thus killing the lamp. When we try to turn it back on it just pops back off. I have no Idea at this point what to do because that thing is more machine than I know what to do with. I tried swapping out the lamp thinking if it was bad that is what is keeping the Rectifier from turning back on successfully but no luck so since the old lamp still looked good I put it back in. Just so we don't needlessly wreck a new lamp. Any Ideas besides pure replacement I'd love to her them.

Thanks yall and just keep Smiling.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-14-2009, 07:14 PM:

when you say pops off does that mean it just turns on attempting to light the lamp and then switches off or does it trip the breaker
also what make and model of rectifier is involved

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-14-2009, 07:57 PM:

..wonder if he popped a diode inside that thing..?

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-14-2009, 10:58 PM:

More like a shorted diode (or contactor terminal), if the breaker's tripping.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 01-15-2009, 02:09 AM:

One of the reverse diodes, I am thinking. Do you have a multimeter?

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 01-15-2009, 02:56 AM:

Everytime I've had a rectifier "pop off" (which I assume means tripping a circuit breaker when you try to ignite the lamp) it's turned out to be a bad/shorted diode.

Last time this happened to me was in September.
A negative diode in the rectifier shorted out.
Unfortunately I discovered that the last time a "set" of replacement diodes was ordered, they'd sent all positive diodes. (D'oh!) And of course this happened over a weekend when getting a quick replacement locally was almost impossible.

I pulled the heat sink off of an old exciter lamp power supply and drilled it out a bit so that I could mount one of the positive diodes on it. Then, I connected the positive diode "backwards" to the rectifier with some heavy wire and hung the whole thing in the back of the unit until we could get a replacement overnighted that Monday.

It worked fine! Below is a picture of what it looked like:

Only lost one afternoon show on a busy weekend,
and the boss was happy with the quick fix.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-15-2009, 03:03 AM:

haha Nice! Seriously, good thinking on a way to keep the show going.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 01-15-2009, 06:57 AM:

Jim,

Congratulations on being very resourceful. This shows that you really understand how the power supply and the diodes work. There are very few booth operators who could have done your improvisation and saved the week end as you did.

Well done.

KEN [beer]

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 01-15-2009, 10:29 AM:

I do have a multi meter just tell me what to test and where to look and I will get back to you with the info. mind you I can't keep the thing on so all the testing will have to be in the state it is in. Usually that doesn't make a difference but I know sometimes it does. I do have another bad rectifier sitting up stairs so if I need a part hopefully I can steal something from that.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-15-2009, 10:34 AM:

Jim, Thats a great example of real ingenuity!

Andrew... You'd have less operational breakdowns if you converted to digital!!

Mark

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 01-15-2009, 10:42 AM:

Mark... From your mouth to god's Ear. Lets just hope this make my higher ups really start to consider this. Although if I am right they have a stead fast plan already about why and when they are going digital and it is not going to change easily. I don't think this equipment has even paid for itself yet as it is just turning three years old. So chucking it for for all new equipment??? I just don't think it is in the cards. But believe you me I am Praying!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-15-2009, 11:30 AM:

Should be PLENTY of good used equipment (35mm) available to replace the Chinese stuff, cheaply. Louis

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-15-2009, 01:30 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Andrew... You'd have less operational breakdowns if you converted to digital!!

Bullshit!! If the guy can't get his cheap-ass owner to drop that Chinese crap he's stuck with, how do you think he's gonna persuade him to pony up the mega bucks for digital?

Nothing personal here Mark but I get royally pissed when everyone seems to believe that digital is the magic cure-all to everything that is wrong with cinema. Some of your own posts telling of issues with servers, projectors and format compatibility speak volumes about how flawed D-Cinema is.

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Should be PLENTY of good used equipment (35mm) available to replace the Chinese stuff, cheaply. Louis

Absolutely. But as Andrew has explained here many times, his owner is too stupid to see that all the lost revenue from a downed show (plus the incredibly bad reputation his theatre is building with the customers) is costing him multiple factors of money more than replacing that crap equipment would cost.

Andrew, if I can locate you a good paying job at a theatre with REAL equipment, you want to relocate?

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 01-15-2009, 01:48 PM:

gentlemen...Diodes 101. Andrew needs to know, but I'm a show me kinda guy and not a "write it out" kinda guy.
I could if I had my equipment in front of me.
Fortunately for Andrew, the equipment needs NOT be on but actually powered off to find the bad diode.
My multimeter has a diode setting to test those with, but some don't and I don't recall what I used on the others...DC?
I know the diode leads on the power supplies I've worked on have their leads attached to the transformer of the power supply in sets of two. The leads will have to be disconnected to test the diodes. One forward and One reverse diode set will be attached together to the transformer block. After separating one set, you will put one probe on the diodes' lead (a rounded lug that the bolt went through) and one probe onto the end of the diode where it's nut holds it in place in the heat sink. You will be testing it to see if current goes through it one way not the other by switching your multitester's leads. If current goes through neither way or both ways, you found the bad diode.
Here is the dangerous part: You must be able to determine which type of diode (forward or reverse) the bad one is, else if you install the opposite diode and fire the unit up, even more damage will result.
That's why I wish some like me was there right now to show you...

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-15-2009, 02:41 PM:

hmm lot of advice being given but still no awnser on the type of rectifier involved If it is a switchmode rectifier then none of the advice given applies and wastes the chaps time
The equipment installed is what the owner chose based on what ever reason but if I was the manufacturers US rep I think i would have someone out there ASAP to find the root of these problems and on a side note they seem to also have had issues with simplex heads as well from other posts

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-15-2009, 02:52 PM:

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
Bullshit!! If the guy can't get his cheap-ass owner to drop that Chinese crap he's stuck with, how do you think he's gonna persuade him to pony up the mega bucks for digital?

Actually not bullshit... none of the digital booths I've installed over the last two years has ever missed a single show. Besides... even as charming as film stuff really is, film and the associated equipment to run it is now obsolete... like it or not.

All of the plex's we have comming up in the first half of this year... close to 40 screens... are all installing digital. None of the folks building these sites even wanted film equipment quotes. We did however convince one to install one film projector becauase of the complex's size [Smile]

.

Mark

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 01-15-2009, 03:37 PM:

Am I missing something here?

The guy has a rectifier problem causing his lamp to be inoperable.
WTF does digital have anything to do with that?

Last I recall both digital and film use lamps and lamps require rectifiers.

(How about rectumfryers for you spell freaks).

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-15-2009, 05:02 PM:

quote: Marky
You'd have less operational breakdowns if you converted to digital!!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-15-2009, 05:03 PM:

Rick,

While we are in "Intermission" mode awaiting knowledge of what type of rectumfryer it actually is discussion of other topics seems like a good idea [thumbsup]

.

I donno Tim... You look more like the Troll than I [Big Grin]

.

Mark

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 01-15-2009, 06:11 PM:

Andrew,
I don't remember what kind of rectifier is in your console. I don't remember any issues with the ones I installed, they just worked. Are you still down, or have you resolved it?

As far as anyone badmouthing these "Chinese Crap" projectors, if you haven't seen them or worked with them, that's bullshit. The image is rock steady with more than enough light. The only real issue was the platter timing, which the factory sent technicians to the States to fix. When I worked for Ballantyne, all I did was travel around fixing Apogees in fairly new installs, more problems than these Horizons have had.

The Horizon projector was marketed for new installs as a cheap projector for owners who were waiting on the "digital" market to make up it's mind which way it was going, instead of buying something that was going to be obsolete a year later.

Rick

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 01-16-2009, 01:31 AM:

Tony,
Sorry if I mislead you about how I feel at this Job. I am actually looking into another carrer. My own business as a matter of fact. Custom Wood Work This is just to pay the bills in the mean time.

I enjoy the challenge sometimes of these problems as I do learn from them and as I have actually said before these Projectors are actually pretty good from what I know. ( I have only worked with these and some old Strongs plus some other old Frankenstein stuff. The only issues I have really had were with the platters and the sound heads and I suspect allot of these problems are due to the klutz that was working here before me and not due to poor quality equipment. When I looked in on the lamp I did notice the braided cable that attaches to the lead at the back of the lamp had melted to something in the past and was not replaced when it was an issue. Again the Klutz. In a perfect world if something is not working right I agree chuck it and get something that works but frankly we aren't in a perfect world and when working for a small family chain in relatively small towns we do what we can with what we got. Frankly we are loosing a bit because of the down screen but it was only bringing in about three to five people per show. Now with a new movie in there I don't know what it will do but I suspect that it won't be that big either.

Rick,
I do believe the owner said he had a new rectifier on it's way in. As soon as it gets here I will post it.

Sorry for the delay on the info but with having to put together four new movies today and move all my prints plus taking down three I honestly forgot to get that info. I will try to get it tomorrow and put it up around noon my time.

Thanks for all the help and willingness. It really does help to have a resource like this.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 01-16-2009, 10:47 AM:

Found this info on diodes:

Diode Stuff

Explains it pretty well with not to much techno-babble.

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 01-16-2009, 07:39 PM:

Here are some photos of the rectifier. Tell me what you think.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-16-2009, 07:41 PM:

Is it UL listed?

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 01-16-2009, 07:43 PM:

Don't Know.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 01-16-2009, 07:44 PM:

I am not used to seeing circuit cards in a rectifier. I recognize the contactors, but that's it.
Is the voltage increased and decreased with the knobs? [Confused]

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 01-16-2009, 07:55 PM:

They are not knobs but Wire Terminals

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 01-16-2009, 08:02 PM:

Mark,
I believe it is UL listed. I don't remember (I've slept since then), but I believe those projectors were in the initial shipment that were delivered during the UL certification. Don't quote me on that though [Roll Eyes]

Andrew,
The first picture looks like your spare rectifryer, then the others are pics of one inside a console. Was the top cover already taken off of the one in the console, or did you do that for the pics?

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 01-16-2009, 08:19 PM:

Patrick took off the top after it broke down to see if he could figure it out. I think they are trying to ship down the Rectifier from the unit in Beeville. The spare was used a while ago (I guess) as it was not working to my knowledge. I think he was hoping to swap out parts but could not figure it out. At least that is what I think from what I have been told. Patrick pretty much took this over after I threw up my hands saying it was all VooDoo to me.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-16-2009, 09:44 PM:

Looks to me like it's time for a rectifier module to be swapped out. (I try to stay with rectifiers that I can easily repair.) Louis

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-17-2009, 01:21 AM:

Almost looks like a "switcher" rectifier esp. with the upper circuitry with the cards and the usage of 'control cables and calibration MS connections' - if that's the case, another "boat anchor" in the works..

you look in the lower gridwork in the case, one can see large blue filter caps

Interesting of the outboard terminals. You'd think that it would have internal hardwire terminations inside...

EDIT: That makes more sense know if it blew a large circuit fuse - just like a STRONG 'switcher' - internals short out and it'll knock a fuse real bad.

And, if my memory serves me correctly when I first saw these Horizons at Showest a couple of years ago and did some snooping on this line - is that the rectifier indeed is a switcher style rectifier. (gasp!)

-Monte

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-17-2009, 01:30 AM:

quote: Richard Hamilton
As far as anyone badmouthing these "Chinese Crap" projectors, if you haven't seen them or worked with them, that's bullshit. The image is rock steady with more than enough light. The only real issue was the platter timing, which the factory sent technicians to the States to fix. When I worked for Ballantyne, all I did was travel around fixing Apogees in fairly new installs, more problems than these Horizons have had.

Richard, try not to take my comments personally.

I am speaking from over 26 years of experience in cinema service and projection operations. I was responsible for a service territory with over 1,400 screens and too many other cinemas to count since then.

The biggest headaches and most trouble-prone equipment was all that made in either China or India. I will honestly say that I have not had any hands-on with Horizon equipment or the platters/rectifiers at Andrew's theatre. I am speaking from the experience with older equipment. [Smile]

The simple mathematical ratio of breakdowns per screen/complex for those two countries of origin was over three times more often than the cinemas using Century, Cinemeccanica, Norelco/Kinoton, Simplex and Christie. I had files of all my service reports that backed that up.

A rock steady image and bright illumination is great, but if the damn equipment can't keep running then where's the value? The excessive issues and downed screen time is really going to kill that theatre's reputation, and in today's climate every lost customer is a big deal.

Andrew has reported a LOT more issues than just platter timing on this forum. [Smile]

As for Apogee, c'mon. That IS junk from Ballenswine and there's no comparison there. And I am not trying to proclaim that American manufacturers have never made crap equipment. (Anyone remember the Dreamcatcher? Or anything from CFS/Rentec?)

But the simple fact is, from what Andrew has been posting here, is that for equipment that is not that old he's had a HUGE amount of issues and downtime that is simply unacceptable.

Finally, I find it very difficult to believe that the rectifier is UL listed. The exposed, "binding post" type of AC input terminals would not get past UL in most cases. (Note that most local Code enforcement officials will NOT accept equipment that is not UL listed. There are a few other agency listings that would be accepted with documentation.)

If it is listed then a picture of the UL label or the UL file number will prove me wrong, and I'll have a nice crow pie standing by. [Smile]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-17-2009, 01:33 AM:

From the Horizon page ..."Removable “Briefcase” style Solid-State Adjustable Rectifier (1 ~ 3kw)"

Yep, a switcher .....

-Monte

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-17-2009, 08:07 AM:

Tony: foreign manufacturers "self certify," something that those of us in the US cannot do. It may well have a sticker, that is probably mostly bogus.

I would agree that " failure mode" and slow repair are the trademarks of "ese" equipment. Therefore we will never sell any. ("ese" is Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, etc.)

"We sell the best" and "service the rest."

Louis

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 01-17-2009, 10:00 AM:

The binding posts appear to be the insulated type and possibly have a UL listing "if" the rectifier is an internal part of a system instead of a stand alone.

Some Strong equipment is made in China...and so is Christie...supervision / QC is the is the key. You should consider the excellent KEX switching rectifiers sold by Kinoton for replacement / upgrade.....made in Spain [Smile]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-17-2009, 10:21 AM:

I belieeve that horizon has ETL ETLc certification done by intertek which is an internationaly recognized testing agency that test each individual item and does not issue blanket "shop" approvals
There testing lables are recognized world wide and tend to be rather in depth compared to some testing agencies
Also if it was to be mounted in a console there is actually no need for a cover over the binding posts as the console would provide the dead front requirment

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 01-17-2009, 12:07 PM:

the rectifryer is internal, and yes Gordon, I believe the ETL was the testing that was being done right before Showest a couple years ago.

My involvment with Horizon was doing the first multiplex install, then meeting with the Chinese and working with them for the trade show. I got involved with them during the install because they were interested in me because of my dealings in China. I still talk with them and will help resolve any issues if I can.

Rick

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-17-2009, 12:14 PM:

I repair switchers... lots of switchers! Just send the bad one to me and I'll fix er up for ya. I'll even use semiconductores that were made in the USA!

Mark

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 01-17-2009, 12:41 PM:

quote:
I repair switchers... lots of switchers!

Really, are you working for Ballantyne now?? [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-17-2009, 10:19 PM:

quote:
I repair switchers... lots of switchers!

Hmmmm doesn't sound too reliable to me.

As for Horizon...I saw nothing about them that would make me believe they would do anything more than perpetuate the cheap-Chinese stereotype.

Power supplies are normally UR (or equivalent). That is, UL recognized since they often are only part of a circuit. For the life of me, I don't know how IREM can get their UR on the EX series...the EX-100s have practically exposed DC connectors and neither the 100 or the 170 have adequate covers for the AC/DC input/outputs. The fine folks at Boston, Light and Sound make some sheet metal covers for them to at least let one land their Greenfield/liquid-tight connectors.

Steve

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 01-17-2009, 11:33 PM:

Mark,
Let me know what you Charge and I will pass on the info to my boss as it is his decision.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-18-2009, 03:39 AM:

quote: Richard Hamilton
Really, are you working for Ballantyne now??

Richard... Pleeze!, Honestly though we do repair alot of them and we make alot of $$ on the repairs even though we are still only charging about half what Ballanswine does. Not one of my repaired switchers has ever failed either for reasons I do know about but am not going to divulge here.

Mark