Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Osram Xtreme Xplosion lamps

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Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 01-21-2009, 10:30 PM:

Had the "pleasure" of having my first xenon explosion last night. It was an Osram "Xtreme Life" XBO 4000W/HS XL OFR with only 1388 hours (warranty is 1500 hours.) The bulb had been on for maybe 40 minutes before popping, and other than being a little dim, hadn't been giving us any trouble. The lamphouse is a Big Sky C4000, the airflow seems fine, and we always let the bulbs cool off before cutting the power at night.

Unless we've just been really unlucky, it seems the quality of Osram bulbs has taken a turn for the worse as this is the third one to fail prematurely.

Here's the mirror afterwards (with an ASL 4k bulb running):

Here's what the mirror should look like:

Here's the cathode with a bit of burnt anode stuck to the tip:

This is the anode, covered in tungsten trioxide crystals:

And finally, a close up of the pretty (but expensive) crystals:

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-21-2009, 11:52 PM:

Good reason to switch to Christies...been there and done that with Osrams...

But, it looked like it didn't bang up the mirror too bad being a big bulb as it was.. Seen some bulb explosions that really dented up a mirror pretty bad..and can't get the owner to buy a new one since their logic is "as long as the light can still goes through the lens, it's okey to leave it as is.."

- not knowing that the light is now going everywhere in the lamphouse as well out of the machine...and they wonder why their light output is lesser than other units in their operations...

"D'oah!"

-Monte

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-22-2009, 12:05 AM:

It is pretty much common knowledge nowadays that Osrams aren't very good.

By the way, those are fantastic photos, Jon. Seriously!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-22-2009, 01:31 AM:

Since it failed under waranty be sure Osram also buys you a new reflector!!!

Mark

Posted by Dan Reiter (Member # 1386) on 01-22-2009, 09:36 AM:

Having designed that lamphouse, I can add that those systems have never had any heating issues in the 11 years I worked there. The only problems could arise if there is either none or weak evacuation up to the roof.

My guess is like the others above, the lamp just failed.

Hapilly, the reflector is easy to replace if you get one, just be sure to put the magnet back on in the same exact position you took it off.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 01-22-2009, 09:56 AM:

Last week I had a 2K Osram XL fail after only about 170hrs.
Fortunately it didn't explode. Looks more like a seal problem.

DEJA VIEW:
I had a "no name" cheap Chinese-made bulb explode
and take out the mirror in a lamphouse last summer.

Ouch! Getting in touch with the manufacturer was nearly
impossible, but the vendor made good on a new blub & mirror.
(Techstuff: Kneisley Xenex-1 Lamphouse, & remains of 2K bulb)

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 01-22-2009, 11:37 AM:

I second Joe's comments about the beautiful photos. For serious. Especially the closeup of the crystals!

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-22-2009, 02:42 PM:

Since when have bulb manufacturers been insuring reflectors? Not that I'm necessarily against the notion, but I've never heard of this before.

And, yes, Osrams have gone from being my favorite bulb to ones that I dread seeing.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-22-2009, 02:48 PM:

quote: Tim Reed
Since when have bulb manufacturers been insuring reflectors? Not that I'm necessarily against the notion, but I've never heard of this before.

As long as I've been in this biz. Each manufacturer does it differently though. Some prorate it after so many hours of use. Christie also does it for their CDXL line of lamps... and those D-Cinema reflectors, especially BARCO's are dam expensive.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-22-2009, 08:46 PM:

Most every lamp we ever sold had the reflector warranty...that is they warrant the reflector so long as the lamp exploded while it was within ITs warranty.

Christie and ASL both warrant the reflector for sure and I'm pretty sure Superior does as well.

Now some big chains obtain a no-warranty price on lamps to get the price lower...but that is a different story.

Steve

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-22-2009, 08:57 PM:

I've never dealt with claims or sales before; most of my theatres have always been big circuits with parts contracts. Back when I was a projectionist, I only ever had one bulb blow up (with a lot of hours on it), so this is news to me.

Cool.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 01-22-2009, 10:15 PM:

I had a 2k LTI blow with less than 50 hrs a few years ago and Strong replaced the bulb and reflector. This has so far been the only bulb explosion that I have have in my 16+ years in projection.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-22-2009, 11:11 PM:

Why would Strong replace the bulb/reflector for you when LTI broke both? Or is LTI owned by Strong?

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 01-22-2009, 11:14 PM:

LTI is/was a subsidiary of Strong.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-22-2009, 11:15 PM:

Ah though LTI's website mentions them being part of Phillips currently, fyi.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 01-22-2009, 11:15 PM:

LTI is/was (I think I read somewhere they are/were being bought by Phillips) a subsidiary of Strong.

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 01-23-2009, 09:56 AM:

Every site I deal with has always gone Osram lamps on my recommendation with NO problems at all.

I changed a 2k lamp this morning that had 3600 hrs, some 27 months which was clear and the anode looked as new. There was nothing wrong with the light and the lamp striked first time every time. It was changed as the owner felt he'd had more than his money's worth from it.

Of all the lamps I've ever used Osram is the only one I can honestly recommend based on my experience and that of others I respect.

While there has been a few who clearly don't like Osram I'm sure it must represent a very small percentage of the total out there.

It's common knowledge that you always hear complaints but seldom here of the shows that have no problems.

AS for lamps exploding, I was carrying a short 2k lamp in it's plastic tube in my hand. For no reason as I was walking to wards the projector to fit it, it exploded. It wasn't as big a bang as some might expect as the lamp was cold. It had possibly been given a bad knock and damaged a seal who knows.

And YES it was an Osram.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-23-2009, 10:27 AM:

Ken, I felt the same way about Osrams... up until a couple years ago. There have been an inordinately high number of premature failures with them in many installations I know of, as well as in my own theatres.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 01-23-2009, 10:48 AM:

I concur with Mr McFall.

Perhaps like Guinness, they don't like to travel too far [Big Grin]

Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 01-23-2009, 12:00 PM:

The Osram 4k bulbs used to average over 4000 hours, with one almost hitting 7000, it's just this last set of bulbs has been very unreliable. We're apparently switching over (or at least experimenting with) ASL bulbs for the time being, with the subtle hint that we'll be using Christies "before too long".

I used my Fuji S100FS with a macro lens and a slave flash to get those close-ups.

Posted by Bastiaan Fleerkate (Member # 3826) on 01-23-2009, 12:38 PM:

What about Ushio lamps?
How is the reputation of these lamps?

I've never had a lamp explode in the projector (we let some drop... and the lamp in our Panasonic beamer has blown up (tiny bits of glass inside projector that made purple blurry spots in the image)) and I hope it will never happen.
What a mess...!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-23-2009, 12:53 PM:

quote: Bastiaan Fleerkate
What about Ushio lamps?

I've ran 2500w Ushios (being the parent company of Christie...) and had some hit and misses with these bulbs - they either had the duration, or died prematurely due to seal leaks...

Thus, we went back to Christies. We used to burn Osrams, but had warranty issues with Osrams that swung us over to Christie and been using them since..

quote: Bastiaan Fleerkate
I've never had a lamp explode in the projector

It'll happen, I promise you. And when it does, it's an experience you'll never forget, especially if you're close by.

I had to "peel" an employee of mine off the ceiling when a 6k bulb let go and he was standing right next to the console. The entire complex (21 screens) heard that explosion. Interestingly enough, the shards barely scratched the mirror like the picts at the beginning of this topic when that 4k bulb let go.

-Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-23-2009, 01:53 PM:

quote: Ken McFall
I changed a 2k lamp this morning that had 3600 hrs, some 27 months which was clear and the anode looked as new.

They why on earth did you change it if it was still in such good shape? I've seen Christie/Ushio lamps go in excess of 20,000 hours and 7 years and they are still clear and stable. A customer has one at 26,000 hours as I type this... they also never explode even at these extreme hours. They eventually just become unstable.

I think what Tim said in another thread "False economy at work; "dropping dimes to pick up pennies." clearly applies to Osram products.

Mark

Posted by Mike Moreno (Member # 4887) on 01-23-2009, 02:47 PM:

I HAVE C4000 CONSOLES AND I CAN SAY THEY WORK FINE, AND I ALSO HAVE THE PROBLEM WITH OSRAM XBO 4000 IT HAPEN 2 TIMES. I THINK IS A DEFECTIVE LAMP

Posted by Ken McFall (Member # 845) on 01-23-2009, 07:16 PM:

Mark it was changed simply because the owner felt he'd had his money from the lamp and that it was not worth the risk of running it way over it's life.

This is of course the opposite of what you often find today where lamps are run to the limit.

WHY?

A 2k lamp costs about £350 a cheap e53 mirror about £150. A half full house about £750. Do the maths a failure will cost you dearly. When you consider a lamp costs about £0.15 per hour it's lunacy to run them into the ground.

So what that you get another 200 hrs out of a lamp that's about £28.... peanuts.

That's why the lamp was changed... common sense.... not much of that about now-a-days.

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 01-23-2009, 07:52 PM:

I just had a Osram XBO 3000W/DHP OFR blow up at 359 hours. It took out the reflector and UV Shield. Osram is not going to like that bill. [Eek!]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-23-2009, 10:00 PM:

The bottom line if you can't afford to change the lamp when its warranty is up then you shouldn't be in business
With most lamps averaging only several dollars a show and in many cases less it should not be the make or break point nor is using the right microswitch in the platter

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-23-2009, 10:31 PM:

Hear! Hear!

quote: Bastiaan Fleerkate
What about Ushio lamps?

I service about 40 Digital Cinema screens. Probably half of those are using Ushio bulbs, and I have not had a single failure from them. At changing time, they come out mostly clear, sometimes with only the slightest hint of darkness in the envelope. (FWIW, the reason they are changed is because the DC integrator WANTS them changed.)

With the Osrams, however, I've had three catastrophic failures in the past 10 months and I know of at least 3 others in the same time period, in territories adjacent to mine. I wish it wasn't so. Osram must have changed something in their manufacturing materials or procedures, or gotten lax in their QC... but SOMETHING has definitely happened with those guys over the past couple of years. [Frown]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-23-2009, 10:59 PM:

quote: Gordon McLeod
The bottom line if you can't afford to change the lamp when its warranty is up then you shouldn't be in business

Gord,

That is just plain being belligerent! Even Christie allows an extra 10% over the rated warranted hours on their lamps... and even on the CDXL line of lamps.

Now lets see, at say 525.00 average price for a 2kw lamp and if it goes 20K hours that lamp costs .02625 per hour to operate or less than 1/4 the cost of operating Kens Osram lamp. I'd bet that lamp costs even went up substantially over that 7 years... So the theater owner than ran his Christie/Ushio for 20,000 hours and 7 years would have spent about $1575.00 US more on purchasing three extra new lamps in that 7 year time period if he pulled his lamps at the same time Ken does. Now thats REAL SAVINGS! Now believe me I don't agree on running lamps this long nor do I teach it but we do have customers that do and that is their choice. Their theory is that if the light on screen is still good, the lamp is stable, and the lamps don't have a history of explosions... then why pull it? The majority of our customers however do pull them at times like Ken specified. I just wanted to show all of you how much less it costs to run a Christie lamp then any of the others one can buy and how much more reliable they are.

P.S. Those of you that can remember the Marble lamps back in the 80's will also probably remember the incredibly high hours they achieved.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-24-2009, 12:59 AM:

With the topic of the super high hours: What about quartz derivication (sp) - the risk of quartz failure which would cause gas loss or explosions?

Also when I was with EDW's with the usage of CHR 4k and 6K HTP bulbs: we had to change them out at 150% over warranty, mainly for the light output quality (which I agreed with) since, even the bulb looks physically good, the light color would get to be somewhat dull and slightly muddy looking in making the picture on the screen look like it lost a lot of contrast - giving it a more flat/blah look on the screen..

-Monte

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-24-2009, 07:34 AM:

Small Osram bulbs, 4k and down: WE routinely get double warranty with a proper IREM rectifier. THey are removed to get/retain correct light and color at the request of the owner. Certainly 10K-hours is possible. You may know that the determiner of warranty hours on Osram is the calculated point where 10% of the light is lost.

Larger Osram bulbs suffer at the hands of transit damage, so results may vary.

It is true that Osram bulbs fare worse than Christie when driven by Strong switchers. That "wild card" is because of rectifier "problems." So, if you have switchers, use Christie; if not use either. I only sell Osram/Christie. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2009, 08:08 AM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
That "wild card" is because of rectifier "problems."

Louis,
Thats absolute bullshit! The little ripple that all switchers generate is so high in frequency (>35khz) as to be invisible to the lamp. I don't see any difference in life between either brand... or any brand for that matter when running either on switchers or brute force rectification. If you measure your beloved IREM's DC ripple some time you'll find out that in the high power units it's actually higher than OSRAM allows!! Christie rectifiers are actually one of the very few that come in at spec. for allowable DC ripple. Kneisley also does.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-24-2009, 08:46 AM:

Funny my lngest bulb life is always with IREM or Kneisley or Alanson Rectifiers
my shortest life span is with Christie or ORC

And as for hours I don't believe thatgoing beyond double the warranty life on small lamps and 20%over on the big ones is reasonable and beyond that plain bad business practice of false ecconomy

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-24-2009, 09:23 AM:

I've reached the conclusion that ripple must be good for bulbs. Yes, you are right that IREMs are high in ripple. It doesn't seem to matter when IREM does it. In fact, I have never changed a capacitor in an IREM.

As far as the Strongs go, I never said ripple is the problem. I only agreed that they don't like Osrams. Perhaps there is another parameter Osrams are intolerant of; that Strong switchers don't conform. Louis

[ 01-24-2009, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Louis Bornwasser ]

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 02-05-2009, 02:48 PM:

Tim Reed wrote;

"With the Osrams, however, I've had three catastrophic failures in the past 10 months and I know of at least 3 others in the same time period, in territories adjacent to mine. I wish it wasn't so. Osram must have changed something in their manufacturing materials or procedures, or gotten lax in their QC... but SOMETHING has definitely happened with those guys over the past couple of years."

Amen! Very interesting Tim. I'm curious to know if they were XL bulbs?

Add my place to the list. We had an explosion just last month in one of our Highlighter II consoles, running a 4K with just over 800 hours. I had to replace the reflector. Osram is eating the bulb (an Extreme Life) and the reflector. Of course the light looked like [bs]

until the new reflector came in.

But, there is more to the story. I was at the theater today, and the kid who took over for me as the full time projection manager asked me to look at two of our other consoles where he complained of flickering light. He thought it was a shutter problem. Nope. It's the bulbs, one a 3K, and the other a 2K, each with about 2000 hours on them, and both are Osram XL's.

Now, when I was running the booth, I easily got 3,000 hours out of the old 2K's, and replaced the 3K's at 2,500 hours. The 4K's were replaced at 2,000 (Sorry Gordon, not my rules, but what I was able to get the owners to agree to).

So, I told the kid to replace both of them. Unfortunately, no fresh 2K bulbs on hand, only used spares [Frown]

He did have a new 3K XL that had just arrived, but guess what? He had to send it back because of a defect (piece of glass inside the envelope)!! [Eek!]

So, I agree with Tim's supposition that something is amiss at Osram, and in my experience, it's been since they went to the manufacture of the Extreme Life Bulb.

As it was explained to me by our dealer, Osram began manufacturing a cheaper bulb to satisfy those who run their theaters on the cheap. Then, they were offering the XL with an increase in the warranty to 1,500 hours, and no pro-rating on the replacement- you got a brand new bulb. So, after running it past the powers that be, I began ordering the XL's.

After reading what others have said on this thread, and similar ones, I've concluded that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, and I am going to recommend switching to Christies.