Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: No more return-exchange on Strong switchers

This is topic No more return-exchange on Strong switchers in forum Film Handlers' Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 01-24-2009, 10:04 AM:

Had a 2-3K switcher go this past week. We called our dealer for a RA number, and guess what? We were told Strong is no longer doing repair/exchanges. Now we will have to send the unit for repair, and then they will ship it back to us.

This basically sucks. We have only ten screens equipped with Highlighter II consoles, eight with 2K-3K, and two 4K. So, we keep a spare of each.

So, what happens now if we get another failure while the spare is out for repair? We're screwed.

To add insult to injury, our dealer told our Managing Director that Strong is bypassing dealers on bids for new equipment, contacting the buyer directly if they do not chose Strong equipment and offering lower prices direct. If this is true, then that sucks, too.

Our equipment was manufactured in 1999, and we have had at least six power supplies go. Too bad we didn't know then what we know now.

In doing a search, I've noted that we're not alone when it comes to doing business with Strong. John C. Arbuckle was right when he said: "you get what you pay for". [sex]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-24-2009, 10:42 AM:

John, with a failure rate of one in almost every two years, it's not likely you'll lose another one at the same time one is out for repair.

[rant on] I work for Strong, and they have been an exceptionally good employer. Further, I am justifiably proud to be associated with a company that has such a rich, pioneering history in this business. They've also invested a lot of time and money into training me and others for Digital Cinema work, making us better technicians and more efficient, and I will stay here for as long as they will have me. Not that you are guilty of this, John, but it hurts me to hear the badmouthing and the childish name-calling of my company by some on this forum... the company that has treated me so well and with such respect for the past 2 1/2 years.

There has been a lot of transitioning of late, first with integrating Strong Technical Services, and now with the shifting future of the Digital Cinema paradigm. Times are getting tight right now, everywhere. With 35mm sales and installations diminishing in general, the repair/return policy is likely a cost-saving measure and much better than the alternative. [/rant off]

DISCLAIMER!!! IMPORTANT! While I am a happy employee of Ballantyne/Strong... I do NOT speak on behalf of the company. Neither am I an official administrative representative!! Actually, they have a policy against employees posting in industry forums, yet they have kindly made an exception for me because I have not heretofore taken a stance in these matters, and because of my long history here.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2009, 12:11 PM:

Ok, here goes for a shameless plug... Or... You can send it to us for repair and save about 40% over what Strong charges... Our switcher repairs have yet to ever fail... over a couple hundred repaired. Fast turn around and if you personally bring it to SLC for repair yourself you can enjoy some fantastic skiing while you wait for your repair! And best yet... we will do repair/exchanges on some models for those that have good standing accounts with us..

Mark

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 01-24-2009, 01:33 PM:

Thanks, Mark. Agree with the skiing, as I was in Park City along with our managing director on vacation last February. [Big Grin]

Tim, I am sure you do a great job with Strong and I respect your opinions on this forum. I am simply telling things as they are. I had one of our 4K supplies go out the Christmas before last. Put in the spare, and that one went bad, too! I ended up changing out the collet and ran a 3000K bulb on the remaining spare 2-3K supply. Light was for shit. It was either that or lose our second biggest house for the holidays. By the way, we didn't get any units back from Strong for several weeks, so you can see why I'm not pleased with the most recent developments.

As for the comments by our dealer concerning Strong, I am only relating things as they were told to our Managing Director. I grew up with Strong equipment, Supers and XL's. I can only tell you that my experiences with Strong equipment ain't like the old days.

Posted by Ky Boyd (Member # 23) on 01-24-2009, 01:38 PM:

Tim, while its lovely that you are a happy, well treated Strong employee, it doesn't change a fundamental fact that Strong has a history of problems with their 2k-3k suitcase switchers. Having been in the situation about a year ago of having our back-up switcher fail two days out of the box, I can fully understand John's frustration. And since Strong no longer repairs older switchers, as a theatre you end up with boat anchors that you have to dispose of. Being a good employer isn't an excuse for product design and quality control issues.

Mark, good to know that your company has an alternative. Can you send me some details? I have a couple of dead Strong switchers along with my working back-ups.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-24-2009, 01:47 PM:

We must be lucky then for I've got 12 screens that run the old "black suitcase" 1 to 2.5k switchers sitting inside X90 consoles that are pushing 20 years old that are the ones that are non-repairable - the "001" series.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-24-2009, 01:57 PM:

Tim,

While some of your concerns are definitely valid, this was the wrong thread to voice them. John, and end user, was relating a person experience at the hands of Strong. It isn't really a debatable thing...this is what happened, this is feelings...Strong is losing a once solid Strong customer through either real or imagined reasons....it is really that simple.

Now Strong can justify it by any means they want...that is their perogative. However, if enough Johns out there feel the same way, Strong runs the risk of losing all of their customer base.

Of all of the threads to choose to make your rant...this probably wasn't the best one...there are others with childish comments that would be more fitting and may convey better meaning.

Steve

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-24-2009, 02:34 PM:

The solution is simple:

1. procure one spare so you can send in the bad one for repair.

or

2. Buy any suitable reliable rectifier and put it in your best house. The old one is now the spare

or

3. repeat as necessary until the switchers are gone!

Louis

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 01-24-2009, 02:44 PM:

So, err, why is this policy change in Strong's interest?

--jhawk

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 01-24-2009, 03:48 PM:

Maybe it wasn't the right place to vent frustration, but I can understand reading your employer getting trashed unrelentingly on the forums and that does start to annoy one after so long. My employer "built the tacky theatres of the 90s". No company is perfect.
I would hazard a guess that Strong is looking to phase out obsolete technology, or what could become obsolete in a few years.

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 01-24-2009, 04:42 PM:

Obsolete technology? After 10 years??? I beg to differ. What is my owner supposed to do? Rip out power supplies from ten consoles and go with something else?

You purchase equipment in good faith. You are making a long term investment.

Of course nothing lasts forever, but you should expect product support. It's not that we are unwilling to pay for repairs. We just do not want to get caught with our pants down and have a theater go dark because we are at the mercy of a supplier.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-24-2009, 04:52 PM:

If you think 10 year obsolesence is bad, try Digital TV!

Remember, they are not refusing to repair, they are only refusing to advance a replacement. Louis

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-24-2009, 05:00 PM:

quote: James Westbrook
I would hazard a guess that Strong is looking to phase out obsolete technology, or what could become obsolete in a few years.

Since when are switching power supplies and Xenon arc lamps considered "obsolete technology"?

Strong (and I'm refraining from my favorite pet names for them out of respect for Tim) has had a LONG history of piss-poor customer service and bad attitude when they're called on their mistakes.

To whit:

I ordered two projectors for a big-name celebrity screening room. On the purchase order, and on the packing list with the machines, it was clearly indicated that the soundheads are to have take-up kits installed (at $400 EACH for a lousy extra groove pulley for the roundthane). [sex]

Guess what? Not only did they arrive without the kits installed (or even thrown into the crate so I could install them myself) but they fought me for over a week before they finally sent the kits!!

Oh, and BOTH of the 1014 heads that they claimed were "run-in at the factory" were so tight I couldn't turn them over!! I had to open the back door and re-adjust the vertical drive assembly to get them to run smooth. [fu]

On one of my last jobs I went through THREE of their 2k switchers!! First one died within an hour of operation, the second one WOULDN'T SHUT OFF even with the control leads COMPLETELY DISCONNECTED!! The third one works..so far.

To Strong's credit, and in the interest of fairness, they DID ship the two exchange supplies UPS 3 day select. Sadly though, this was a rare exception in good customer service from them.

If I were to outline all the issues I'd had with them over the last several years, I would need two posts of a full forum page each.

[thumbsdown]

[ 01-25-2009, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Tony Bandiera Jr ]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2009, 05:10 PM:

quote: John T. Hendrickson, Jr
You purchase equipment in good faith. You are making a long term investment.

Yes, and the couple of models of Strong switchers from the late 70's/early 80's that can't(and shouldn't)be repaired are both a fire hazard and have obsolete semis in them. Customers have sent us a few of these to repair over the years and even though we can get the semis for them the boards are a fire hazard and I won't fix em either because of that.

I can't think of anything D-Cinema that obsolete to the point that it can't be utilized for something... even the old 1.3K projectors have a use... ok, there may be a few obscure servers... I'll grant you that. I really think its time for Louis to get with it or retire... even IREM makes switchers, and some dam good ones too... for both film and D-Cinema use. Switchers will be taking over completely from brute force rectifiers over the next 10 years weather it be film or D-Cinema...oh and as far as TV goes Louis he would be much smarter to start converting to that medium since thats all there will be for mainstream theaters at the end of a recently shortened path thanks to Paramount. There certainly won't be room for any backwards thinkers in this industry in the very near future.

Mark

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 01-24-2009, 06:24 PM:

I certainly don't mean to bash Strong, but Tony: UPS 3-day Select is good customer service? Umm, not over here it's not. And in this industry that uses next-flight out shipments as frequently as it does.

(I'm spoiled. Our FedEx discount is such that FedEx priority overnight is less than a dollar more than FedEx Express Saver (3-day). After all, if it goes on a plane, it's not as if it is in the carriers' interest to warehouse other people's stuff).

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-24-2009, 06:34 PM:

Mark...you preach and preach....and yes there ARE installation of digital cinemas...but by and large, those that were hired to do these big conversions...have been laid off...to say the "conversion" is at a trickle pace is an overstatement.

As to switcher power supplies...all of my installations have a spare on site and we rotate them through so they all age. I have NOT found them to gain any longer lamp life and more often than not, shorter. While the frequency is indeed high...you can always tell a lamp run by a switcher...their anode surface has a very fine grit surface...kinda like a piece of sandpaper. I still install brute-force supplies unless there is a need or specific reason for the switcher...they are more reliable, period.

On the switcher's up side...they are less expensive (you can ofen buy three switchers for the price of two HR rectifiers...especially if you factor freight in). Switchers are also VASTLY more efficient on power conversion. Running 150A DC on an IREM N3-180 (a bit over 4000-watts), you would draw upwards of 35A per leg of 3-phase...the same lamp could be run on an IREM EX-170 for about 22-23A per leg. That is over a 30% savings on electricity alone. Your infrastructure also drops as #8 wire drops to #10 wire for requirements...Step down transformers within a complex can be smaller...and on and on.

I like the ability to remotely control the current in a swither over a HR in some applications too. There are a lot of things going for them...field service isn't one of them.

As to Louis and not replacing CAPs in IREMS...I've had a couple caps in newer IREMs fail (shot their cookies out the vent hole)...note, the current generation of N3 series have better filtration than the previous N3X series. (or G3 vs G3X for console types).

It isn't too uncommon for me to change capacitors in a HR rectifier...if I see a lot of "snot" on the anode of a xenon lamp after "normal" hours...I change the caps...clears right up and the lamps last longer...pretty simple.

Now as to $400 pullies....are you a dealer? Really. I've never had a problem with that one and we are MOSTLY a reel-to-reel installer. On Simplexes, the pulley has been a zero cost option too...not $400...after all the pulley lists for under $100 and the is the only part that is added (plus short set screws to affix it). Also, don't use roundthane...you'll never get an even pull...use a V-belt...cheaper, better, longer lasting.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2009, 06:51 PM:

Steve,

You may want to stock up on your fav. HR rectifiers... they won't be around for more than a few more years... and yes, if more studios jump on the VPF bandwagon that Paramount initiated this week then yes the installation of D-Cinema gear will be something that you and I won't be able to keep up with.

I agree on changing out caps but having the right gear and know how to measure the level of ripple is also something one has to have... Ripple/inrush meters have not been manufactured in nearly 20 years. Ya can't JUST judge by looking at the anode or cathode... it may have been running that way for quite some time. A ripple/inrush meter and high power resistance standard and storage scope are all necessary to do the job right and when it needs to be done.

As for Strong, they are dying a slow death and it is obvious to all involved in this industry. Soon all they will have to offer will be screens and service are those are not going to support them for very long, nor will the small percentage they make off of distributing NEC projectors.

Mark

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 01-24-2009, 07:07 PM:

Mark, can't you measure inrush with a current probe and a DSO?

--jhawk

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-24-2009, 08:43 PM:

You can if you have a non reactance shunt

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-24-2009, 09:41 PM:

So, if STRONG is playing the 'demand of the masses' game, what are the ones like us that have these old black suitcase dinosaurs to do when they let go .. buy their competitors rectifiers?

I've noticed that their interest in the repair exhange department took a dump in the river for some off reason...

-Monte

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-24-2009, 10:26 PM:

I do have a non-reactive shunt very similar to what Osram used to send out to test inrush. I also own one of the very few ripple/inrush meters ever built and it's quite accurate. Since I collect-restore test gear I am very fortunate to also own a number of calibration standards and am able to verify my own DMM's, scopes, freq counters and so on for accuracy on a fairly regular basis(Isn't E-Bay a great place!). There is also a place here in SLC that can verify those standards if need be.

Mark

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 01-25-2009, 01:18 AM:

I didn't intend to diminish John or his plight, I only offered a probable reason for the policy change. And, I do believe I qualified my rant with:

quote: Tim Reed
Not that you are guilty of this, John, but it hurts me to hear the badmouthing and the childish name-calling of my company by some on this forum..

I also said that I was not speaking for the company (read: IMHO). That, dear friends, is ALL I was bitching about, because I could just *feel* another bash-fest coming on.

Btw, thanks guys, for your consideration.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-25-2009, 01:55 AM:

quote: John Hawkinson
I certainly don't mean to bash Strong, but Tony: UPS 3-day Select is good customer service? Umm, not over here it's not. And in this industry that uses next-flight out shipments as frequently as it does.

(I'm spoiled. Our FedEx discount is such that FedEx priority overnight is less than a dollar more than FedEx Express Saver (3-day). After all, if it goes on a plane, it's not as if it is in the carriers' interest to warehouse other people's stuff).

--jhawk

John, with all the trouble I'd had with Strong in the past I was pleasantly surprised that they did do 3-day. UPS' rate for a package that big (and heavy) is really steep, and I know for a fact that you are spoiled with your Fed-Ex deal, as there is a HUGE price gap in UPS' rates for Next-Day and 3-Day services. [Smile]

quote: Steve Guttag
Now as to $400 pullies....are you a dealer? Really. I've never had a problem with that one and we are MOSTLY a reel-to-reel installer. On Simplexes, the pulley has been a zero cost option too...not $400...after all the pulley lists for under $100 and the is the only part that is added (plus short set screws to affix it).

Yep, that was the standard charge for the take-up kits added to the 5-Star at the factory. I was not the dealer, so maybe it was the deal (such that it was) that my dealer had at the time. I do know the charge was from Strong, not my dealer.

Tim, I'm glad you see the posts here in the context of our individual experiences with Strong, and not any reflection on you personally or your working with Strong.

I for one do lament the fact that for whatever reason, there are those at Strong who have made decisions that have had very negative effects on their customer service, and to some extent, the quality of their products.

As Mark has pointed out (in some other threads), there has been some positive things they have done (for example, the porosity issue with the XL projector head castings, I do agree that the main casting is better than the old ones, but whoever came up with that hideous framing handle needs to be shot), but there have sadly been more negatives than positives from them.

As for the old black switchers, I have found them to fall into three categories;

They flame out within the first few hours of operation;
They last for quite a while, but when they did fail and Strong repaired them, they kept failing over and over again;
or like the one I now have on my own projector, they run seemingly forever. Mine has maxed out the little "mercury" hour meter and it's still going, well Strong.

When it dies I'll be sending it to Mark. [Smile]

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 01-25-2009, 03:51 AM:

Tim,

On a completely different note:
If he still works for Strong, say hello to Tim Ellwell or maybe it's Elwell; I can't remember and I just moved 18 prints [Frown]

. He used to be the Cineplex Odeon/Loews-Cineplex tech for the Northwest. Good guy.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 01-25-2009, 07:10 AM:

"Reports of my demise are greatly exagerated!"

Film definately has a present and a future, probably alongside some form of video.

National Amusements (parent company of Viacom/Paramount) is our customer. They do not have a single stand alone video screen.

Carmike alone owns the majority of Dig. Cin. installations (2100 about). Most are stand alone. 'Nuff said. Louis

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 05-04-2015, 05:13 PM:

It has been 2290 days since the last post.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 05-04-2015, 05:13 PM:

Sorry to drag up just an old thread but I wanted to say two things

1. Tim, I much preferred working for Chris Peirce, Charlie Achee, Frank, Bud Shepard, Andy Lizotte and everyone in Louisiana (and around the country) at NCSC. To be fair I did not stick around STS for too long.

2. I thoroughly enjoyed working on the booths Louis supplied for NA and working on his automations and other entertainment engineering/Hadden equipment.

NA had some of the better booths but some things made me laugh. Louis, Remember Glenn Terell and his phantom surround speakers?

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-05-2015, 06:46 AM:

I tried to buy empty 8330 cabinets, but JBL wanted to sur-charge us for a special order. We had to be one of the only places that had spare surround speakers installed in plain sight! (Architect's requirements.) There should have been no rattling cones anywhere in that circuit.

Many thanks for the compliments. Especially nice in retirement.